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FriendoftheDork
Hey, after checking up the grenade rules and calculating some, I find them less than effective, even for skilled users. Granted, power 10P for HE grenade seems pretty much, but since the grenade loses power that quickly (-2 per meter) it seems most opponents, even unarmored civillians would likely survive any grenade blast other that a direct hit.

Only on a direct hit does your net hits on the attack roll carry over to modified damage, which means no matter how skilled you are you can only potentially kill one person per grenade, except when the target's are in extremely confined space or next to a wall/hard surface.

Am I wrong or does these grenades seem very underpowered? Frag grenades are better as they are 12P and only -1 per meter, but people with impact armor can survive that easily.

You could house rule that net hits increase damage at all ranges, but then the total blast radius would be too great.

Any comments or suggestions?
Jaid
i can't say i see this as a problem. we're talking about a 10 (or 20) meter radius... you do realise that's a huge area right?
Samaels Ghost
I use the skill to put that grenade between the enemy and a wall. That way the damage bounces. Salsa anyone?
venenum
QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
I use the skill to put that grenade between the enemy and a wall. That way the damage bounces. Salsa anyone?

No chunky salsa. oh grenades havenever been mant o be used as mass killers just room clearers so they dont know what hit them til you shoot them. they are desinged to be paired with other weapons.
FriendoftheDork
1: Opps, I posted the wrong numbers. Basically it is 5 or 10 meters radius only. Yet my problem was with the damage and the impossibility of increasing it through good shots.

2: Yeah, but what if the enemy is standing in a typical room as much as 3 meters away from the blast, and their is no force left in the concussion. (it travels 6 meters!). In any case, my problem is with using grenades against targets in the open.

3: Dealing 3-4 damage to the people in the room doesen't sound like room clearers to me. Frag grenades works well enough in this respect though. I was thinking more of using grenades to attack more than one enemy at the same time, and cause knockdown.
Clyde
Frag grenades are meant for open areas, but the user should have hard cover available. High explosive grenades are for use in confined spaces, especially when the thrower may be near the blast area. HE grenades are NOT for typical use in the open - grenades mostly kill through shrapnel, not concussive force.

In actual RL combat, grenades tend to be highly variable. Sometimes a grenade goes off and no one is hurt (even those right next to the thing), other times a grenade can wipe out half a squad. There's just no telling. A major factor is that most RL hand grenades are cheaply made, mass produced and of fairly simplistic design. The fuse might be one or two seconds longer (or shorter!!!) than intended. The case may not fragment properly. The powder charge may not have been properly filled. Oftentimes you'll get a dud.

Grenades are useful mainly for their ability to go around corners, into rooms, into trenches or bunkers or behind cover. You can get a grenade into places a bullet (or manabolt) just can't go. Throw the things around in the open and guys just duck away from them or throw them back. If you can put your helmet and flak jacket between you and a grenade you have a good chance of surviving.

FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Clyde)
Frag grenades are meant for open areas, but the user should have hard cover available. High explosive grenades are for use in confined spaces, especially when the thrower may be near the blast area. HE grenades are NOT for typical use in the open - grenades mostly kill through shrapnel, not concussive force.

In actual RL combat, grenades tend to be highly variable. Sometimes a grenade goes off and no one is hurt (even those right next to the thing), other times a grenade can wipe out half a squad. There's just no telling. A major factor is that most RL hand grenades are cheaply made, mass produced and of fairly simplistic design. The fuse might be one or two seconds longer (or shorter!!!) than intended. The case may not fragment properly. The powder charge may not have been properly filled. Oftentimes you'll get a dud.

Grenades are useful mainly for their ability to go around corners, into rooms, into trenches or bunkers or behind cover. You can get a grenade into places a bullet (or manabolt) just can't go. Throw the things around in the open and guys just duck away from them or throw them back. If you can put your helmet and flak jacket between you and a grenade you have a good chance of surviving.

Well you're right about frags being the grenade of choise today, but I was under the impression they were out of favor because of the abundance of body armor in 2070. Still, you got valid points.

However, I was discussing all grenades not just hand-thrown ones: My character uses an ares alpha with airburst link. I would think using grenades at the longer ranges would be better vs small groups of closely spaced guards etc., for example 2-10 men squads in patrol or just marching. It seems to me frag grenades is the only option here, while concussion grenades are only good in very confined spaces or against heavily armored opponents.


BTW, on a related note is there any rules concerning indirect fire? Is there a -6 penalty due to blind fire, and that's it? What if a forward observer is in contact with you through commlink, with image uplink and all that?
kzt
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)

BTW, on a related note is there any rules concerning indirect fire? Is there a -6 penalty due to blind fire, and that's it? What if a forward observer is in contact with you through commlink, with image uplink and all that?

You could use the old ones from Cannon Companion. They really, really suck a lot.
Jaid
i would just simplify it personally. a spotter cuts the penalty in half. a spotter with appropriate gear (gps, proper targetting equipment, appropriate software package) i would allow to negate the penalty for blindfire in half.

and if you're talking about a non-moving target, i might consider letting them do some kind of test (maybe an extended test requiring math skills?) to reduce the penalty further than half without the software. but obviously, that has some limitations =P
FriendoftheDork
That doesen't sound too bad. . .
Wasabi
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Sep 9 2006, 08:14 PM)

BTW, on a  related note is there any rules concerning indirect fire? Is there a -6 penalty due to blind fire, and that's it? What if a forward observer is in contact with you through commlink, with image uplink and all that?

You could use the old ones from Cannon Companion. They really, really suck a lot.

The existing rules favor grenades even via indirect fire, they just don't call it indirect fire. I'll give this in logical form:

1. Grenades target an area.
2. Grenades affect everything in their blast radius, even if targets are not detected or seen
3. Augmented Reality can allow a teammember to show which 1meter square needs the grenade. (EG: Sensors on drones or Astrally-perceiving mages can plot an enemies position.)
4. Smartgun links on a Grenade Launcher include a rangefinder and show up B) A jammer to jam the airbust link 'talking' to the mini-grenade. This could mean the grenade still goes off after its 1 combat turn delay but at least it will scatter normally and have a short delay prior to going kaboom.directly on the firing character's image link.
5. Airburst Links, a smartgun accessory firing normal minigrenades pre-programmed to burst at the right range [so they can't be jammed] instantly burst in mid air and never miss by more than 6 meters, and less if the extra 2 dice and/or defaulting skill gets any hits at all
6. If grenades scatter into a wall they stop scattering


These facts basically show that even WITHOUT a Physical Barrier to thoroughly screw the target that grenades are a great all around weapon. Put one in the window of a car or in a hallway and FOOM! chunky salsa. smile.gif

The only real defense against this is an invisible or undetected wall to prevent the grenade from getting to the targetted 1m by 1m area
hobgoblin
grenades, like automatic fire, are (iirc) more a area denial device then a attack weapon. by tossing a grenade into a room and you deny the use of said room for a limited time (unless the enemy risks death or serious injury. remember that unlike d&d, SR damage have an effect on your ability to fight). time that a prepared team can use to take over control of said room.

so its more a device you use to control the actions of the enemy then a device used to directly defeat him.
venenum
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
grenades, like automatic fire, are (iirc) more a area denial device then a attack weapon. by tossing a grenade into a room and you deny the use of said room for a limited time (unless the enemy risks death or serious injury. remember that unlike d&d, SR damage have an effect on your ability to fight). time that a prepared team can use to take over control of said room.

so its more a device you use to control the actions of the enemy then a device used to directly defeat him.

This is what i meant by room clearer, not people killer.
Clyde
For spotter assisted indirect fire, I'd go ahead and use the rules for Teamwork tests (or whatever they're called). The spotter's net hits on his test add bonus dice to the grenadier.

Grenade launchers are handy in the open. The modern versions are fairly inaccurate (i.e. M-203, XM-320). However, the multishot versions are much more effective - you can fire a shot to figure the range, windage and so forth and then correct your next five right onto the target.

Airburst Link grenade launchers are pretty good in the open. You're unlikely to flat out kill more than one guy, but no one else is going to be happy either. I suppose it's a matter of what you're comparing grenades to: your expectations of what a grenade should do or the mechanical effects of the other weapons available in SR4. In terms of expectations, grenades probably don't measure up. Compared to a submachine gun, grenades frickin' rock.
Critias
Hey, they're more dangerous than they were in SR3, at least (unless you used the optional blast-for-staging rules). If they're close enough to the grenade in SR4, at least it can kill them.

They used to be just Moderate-damage-at-most, period. Three grenades went off on your unarmored chest? No problem, brother, you're still just at Ser + 3, tops.
FriendoftheDork
Grenades are not UNLIKELY to kill more than one man in the open, they are unable to do so. That's my main problem with grenades. I don't mind that they're unlikely to kill more than one, just that you can't do so even if you're very skilled/lucky.

Since net hits only carried over to damage on direct hit, even targeting a square smack in the middle of 4-5 men walking very close together means that none of them will be hit with anything harder than 10p, most likely 8p damage.

On the contrast, my ares predator can easily kill two people in one phase, with 15-16 dice and ex-ex ammo. So yeah I'm disappointed in grenades compared to the other weapons in the game in this aspect.

Other than that they're cool.

After some thinking I realize that grenades are pretty good in the right situations while still not being overpowered compared to firearms.
venenum
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Grenades are not UNLIKELY to kill more than one man in the open, they are unable to do so. That's my main problem with grenades. I don't mind that they're unlikely to kill more than one, just that you can't do so even if you're very skilled/lucky.

Since net hits only carried over to damage on direct hit, even targeting a square smack in the middle of 4-5 men walking very close together means that none of them will be hit with anything harder than 10p, most likely 8p damage.

On the contrast, my ares predator can easily kill two people in one phase, with 15-16 dice and ex-ex ammo. So yeah I'm disappointed in grenades compared to the other weapons in the game in this aspect.

Other than that they're cool.

After some thinking I realize that grenades are pretty good in the right situations while still not being overpowered compared to firearms.

Well note you only threw one grenade, but fored 2 bullets. that is not a fair comparison. You have to throw two grenades, you can too. Also note bullets dont just kill on streight damage. It also trauma of the wound.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (venenum)
Also note bullets dont just kill on streight damage. It also trauma of the wound.

How is "trauma of the wound" not just straight damage?
Fresno Bob
With maaaaagic.
mfb
QUOTE (venenum)
Well note you only threw one grenade, but fored 2 bullets. that is not a fair comparison. You have to throw two grenades, you can too.

except that throwing two grenades takes three simple actions, while firing two rounds only takes two. and that's assuming you're already holding a grenade in your hand, which is generally not the case--if you're not, you'd need four actions to throw two grenades. so it really is a pretty fair comparison--you can spend two actions and kill two people, or you can spend two actions and kill one guy.
Metalsmith
QUOTE (mfb @ Sep 11 2006, 12:08 AM)
except that throwing two grenades takes three simple actions, while firing two rounds only takes two.  and that's assuming you're already holding a grenade in your hand, which is generally not the case--if you're not, you'd need four actions to throw two grenades. so it really is a pretty fair comparison--you can spend two actions and kill two people, or you can spend two actions and kill one guy.

I dont know about you, I always use a ArmTech MGL-12 to "throw" my Grenades.

My arm gets tired eaisly.

Also, with an Armorer Skill roll you can mount a micro smoke grenade into the hem or cuff of your armor jacket and send a command via skinlink to the mount to drop the grenade and activate it. (Free Action) It makes a good running away tool.



-----------METALSMITH-----------^^^^
Shrike30
A pretty typical room breach involves throwing a NON-fragmenting grenade into a room (typically after "cooking it off" so that the fuse has already got a couple of seconds burned off) and then storming it right after the explosion, while all of the guys inside are, in theory, knocked down and disoriented, which would put them at a disadvantage in the ensuing seconds of close-range shooting. The reason for choosing a non-fragmenting grenade is that you don't want bits of your own grenade coming through an interior wall at high speeds from a few yards away.

SR3 mentioned somewhere something along the lines of a level of determination, that indicated when (on their damage monitors) various kinds of opponents would stop fighting. You set off a grenade in the middle of a bunch of street punks who want your wallet, and they're probably going to back off despite the fact that they only took 6 or so damage apiece. SR4's damage monitor assumes that you're a crazy mofo shadowrunner desperate to survive, which means you don't really have time to lie on the floor screaming when your leg eats some shrapnel, and it takes knocking you into unconciousness to make you back down from a fight. This is not always the case nyahnyah.gif
knasser
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Am I wrong or does these grenades seem very underpowered? Frag grenades are better as they are 12P and only -1 per meter, but people with impact armor can survive that easily.


You've obviously never had a character use one as a melee weapon.

-K.
venenum
QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Sep 9 2006, 06:23 PM)
Am I wrong or does these grenades seem very underpowered? Frag grenades are better as they are 12P and only -1 per meter,  but people with impact armor can survive that easily.


You've obviously never had a character use one as a melee weapon.

-K.

Yeah totaltly, its called called shot down his throat.
Mr. Unpronounceable
At least grenades can (in theory, if rarely in practice) be deadly now.

Back in SR2, it was more deadly to fall out of bed (Falling distance D damage) than be in a grenade blast (S damage rating.)
venenum
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)
At least grenades can (in theory, if rarely in practice) be deadly now.

Back in SR2, it was more deadly to fall out of bed (Falling distance D damage) than be in a grenade blast (S damage rating.)

I would hate to fall out of a bunk bed
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