I got to thinking about TM's Complex Forms and Threading a little and realized one of the advantages a TM will have over a regular Hacker is they won't suffer from SOTA advances.
Athough they are a Karma Pit they won't need to spend countless $$ on upgrades just to keep their stats, programs and warez from fading into 2's and 1's.
The more I look into what TM's are (per Core), the more I like them.
Edit - This will be more useful in the context of Unwire since there are no SOTA rules from SR4.core. No insight on UW, just speculation from prior SR versions.
Full Version: TM's and SOTA
I think you're right about TM's not being affected by SOTA, where Hackers would.
Personally, I hope that SOTA isn't reintroduced in Unwired. It was a bookkeeping nightmare in SR3, and it doesn't make sense that for all the book keeping they got rid of (weight and encumberance?, Matrix Storage space?) that they would introduce SOTA back in. Unless they change the mechanic significantly, of course, in which case add away.
Personally, I hope that SOTA isn't reintroduced in Unwired. It was a bookkeeping nightmare in SR3, and it doesn't make sense that for all the book keeping they got rid of (weight and encumberance?, Matrix Storage space?) that they would introduce SOTA back in. Unless they change the mechanic significantly, of course, in which case add away.
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) |
| Personally, I hope that SOTA isn't reintroduced in Unwired. It was a bookkeeping nightmare in SR3, and it doesn't make sense that for all the book keeping they got rid of (weight and encumberance?, Matrix Storage space?) that they would introduce SOTA back in. Unless they change the mechanic significantly, of course, in which case add away. |
I agree.
I am guessing affecting Rating across the board is the easiet way to accomplish this at least for Computer Technology. They'd be smart to leave out any formula for costs and use existing costs for upgrading from one Rating to another.
If Unwired is anything like Street Magic, they'll add to the existing rules-base instead of rewriting it. Given the often vague nature of SR4.core, that approach works nicely.
The matrix rules cry out for SOTA... Last years program rating 6 is this years 5, and next years 4.
It doesn't make sense when I buy a rating 6 at chargen, and ten (game) years later it's still 6.
I have no idea how this should affect TMs, though.
It doesn't make sense when I buy a rating 6 at chargen, and ten (game) years later it's still 6.
I have no idea how this should affect TMs, though.
| QUOTE (Butterblume) |
| It doesn't make sense when I buy a rating 6 at chargen, and ten (game) years later it's still 6. |
Patches, man, and updates. SUPPORT CONTRACTS.
| QUOTE (Shrike30) | ||
Patches, man, and updates. SUPPORT CONTRACTS. |
Maybe only cracked software is subject to SOTA then
| QUOTE (Shrike30) | ||
Patches, man, and updates. SUPPORT CONTRACTS. |
Looking at 2006 software, the patches and support contracts would keep it SOTA for that one year, before the rating drops.
They default a lot of stuff to "lifestyle" cost. Utilities, public transportation, food, drug habits, even safe houses.
It could easily be assumed that upgrading computer programs is covered in his lifestyle costs, as support contracts allow you to renew at a fraction of the original purchase price.
The real question comes in with hacking programs though. Usually these are written by hackers or sec companies, so getting them updated on contract is somewhat unreasonable.
Then again any hacker worth his OS would know enough to constantly tweak his programs to account for the latest matrix trends as seen on the trids or from personal experience.
It could also be looked at that when a node upgrades its firewall to a higher rating, it is in a sense making some programs more obsolete. Over those same 6 years I'm sure they had to update their firewall and you updated your program, so the rating being a somewhat arbitrary number would still be of equal value. Unless you want everyone to upgrade constantly (like we do in real life), but then that wouldn't be a game I'd play. "no no, he has a firewall rating 6.7b and your exploit only accounts for ratings 6.10 and lower"
I mean even the idea of a catch all Exploit program doesn't make sense when dealing with different OS's
It could easily be assumed that upgrading computer programs is covered in his lifestyle costs, as support contracts allow you to renew at a fraction of the original purchase price.
The real question comes in with hacking programs though. Usually these are written by hackers or sec companies, so getting them updated on contract is somewhat unreasonable.
Then again any hacker worth his OS would know enough to constantly tweak his programs to account for the latest matrix trends as seen on the trids or from personal experience.
It could also be looked at that when a node upgrades its firewall to a higher rating, it is in a sense making some programs more obsolete. Over those same 6 years I'm sure they had to update their firewall and you updated your program, so the rating being a somewhat arbitrary number would still be of equal value. Unless you want everyone to upgrade constantly (like we do in real life), but then that wouldn't be a game I'd play. "no no, he has a firewall rating 6.7b and your exploit only accounts for ratings 6.10 and lower"
I mean even the idea of a catch all Exploit program doesn't make sense when dealing with different OS's
| QUOTE (Wiseman) |
| I mean even the idea of a catch all Exploit program doesn't make sense when dealing with different OS's |
True, but we aren't dealing with the "real" just game concepts to help represent the action of hacking.
I would think the non-Common apps would degrade faster since they are very much the subject matter of a SOTA advancement on computing.
| QUOTE (Wiseman) |
| The real question comes in with hacking programs though. Usually these are written by hackers or sec companies, so getting them updated on contract is somewhat unreasonable. |
Except that with the current programming rules it's literally impossible for a hacker to program even a significant fraction of his own suite. Just one would take nearly six months' constant effort, and by that time SOTA will have (likely) made it halfway obsolete. I really hope those rules change in Unwired; I liked the idea of a hacker, you know, actually hacking, rather than just being a script kiddie with a lot of stolen money.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) | ||
Except that with the current programming rules it's literally impossible for a hacker to program even a significant fraction of his own suite. Just one would take nearly six months' constant effort, and by that time SOTA will have (likely) made it halfway obsolete. I really hope those rules change in Unwired; I liked the idea of a hacker, you know, actually hacking, rather than just being a script kiddie with a lot of stolen money. |
yeah, about the only remotely reasonable way now is if you get a group of hackers, big enough to add enough dice through teamwork that you massively overkill the threshold on the extended test in the first interval.
ie, if you need A successes on the test, you get enough hackers that with teamwork you're throwing A x 4 or 4.5 dice, and spending edge.
otherwise, forget it... you're not gonna be programming anything in a reasonable amount of time.
I think you guys are missing the point: that only one hacker has to write them and then copy it for all his warez friends. I want five programs, I ask my hacker buddies in the chat room if they want to help. We each write one and share them all. We each get five. And there are a lot more than 5 hackers around. .
Upgrading a program wouldn't require the same length of time as writing it entirely over, a hacker who can write it from scratch can easily update it based on his experiences.
In the end it was just an angle to reasonably describe why upgrades and the circle of ratings that would follow (and constantly get higher) is already occuring without any special mechanic. Keep the ratings relative.
I'm not a big fan of having to always adjust the numbers every two weeks of game just because thats how real life does it.
If its good for RP, it has some good uses, but when it requires an extended mechanic that exists only for its own legitimacy, than I just make up some fluff reason to explain how the rules already compensate.
Upgrading a program wouldn't require the same length of time as writing it entirely over, a hacker who can write it from scratch can easily update it based on his experiences.
In the end it was just an angle to reasonably describe why upgrades and the circle of ratings that would follow (and constantly get higher) is already occuring without any special mechanic. Keep the ratings relative.
I'm not a big fan of having to always adjust the numbers every two weeks of game just because thats how real life does it.
If its good for RP, it has some good uses, but when it requires an extended mechanic that exists only for its own legitimacy, than I just make up some fluff reason to explain how the rules already compensate.
I'm really hoping that if SOTA rules come up at all, that they're just subsumed by lifestyle. Maybe some sort of rule where you start getting penalties when you've been below a certain level for a certain time. The most complicated thing I want to see is a minimum lifestyle level for various SOTA categories (Matrix, magic, weapons, etc.).
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| I'm really hoping that if SOTA rules come up at all, that they're just subsumed by lifestyle. Maybe some sort of rule where you start getting penalties when you've been below a certain level for a certain time. The most complicated thing I want to see is a minimum lifestyle level for various SOTA categories (Matrix, magic, weapons, etc.). |
I think that's an even better approach. LIke a 10% one-time-lifestyle-cost payment to keep things up to snuff w/o rating loss.
I can't see why there should be SOTA rules on things like magic, cyberware or weapons.
SOTA rules on hacking, on the other hand, would explain why the facility you are raiding only has a rating of 4 or even 3 for their computer stuff, and not rating 6.
I won't think about it until I have Unwired, though
.
EDIT: I am only referring to mundane hackers. TMs clearly need another mechanic (or none at all. After all, they pay big karma).
SOTA rules on hacking, on the other hand, would explain why the facility you are raiding only has a rating of 4 or even 3 for their computer stuff, and not rating 6.
I won't think about it until I have Unwired, though
.EDIT: I am only referring to mundane hackers. TMs clearly need another mechanic (or none at all. After all, they pay big karma).
| QUOTE (Wiseman) |
| I think you guys are missing the point: that only one hacker has to write them and then copy it for all his warez friends. I want five programs, I ask my hacker buddies in the chat room if they want to help. We each write one and share them all. We each get five. And there are a lot more than 5 hackers around. |
ummm... no, you're missing something.
for a rating 6 hacking program, you're looking at needing 12 hits in an extended test, with an interval of 1 month. assuming you have computer + logic giving you 12 dice (which i think is pretty reasonable), on average that's gonna be 3 months.
for a new 6/6 OS, you need 12 successes each for firewall and system, with 3 month intervals on firewall and *6 month* intervals on system. on average, that's gonna take a total of 2 years, 3 months.
and god forbid you should want a rating 6 agent to help you out either... you're looking at 18 successes, 3 month intervals, or on average 18 months.
by the time you're done coding, SOTA will have left you behind, and your rating 6 agent will be rating 4 probably.
| QUOTE |
| for a new 6/6 OS, you need 12 successes each for firewall and system, with 3 month intervals on firewall and *6 month* intervals on system. on average, that's gonna take a total of 2 years, 3 months. |
yea by yourself. But if me and four others each write one. We get all four in 6 months. Yay!
A lot of code is started by one hacker and later finished by another. File sharing is a big thing, and hacker's love the "us against them" mentality.
But catch this, it takes far less to "upgrade" a program than it does to start from scratch. Though no mechanic exists for this, its very feasible and possible to spend a little time each month tweaking your programs to the latest news on the hacker blogs.
is it unfeasible to get all you programs free? Damn right it is, it should cost you some of them earned/owned rewards. But that still isn't justification for why all your programs should degrade as a game mechanic.
It certainly seems unlikely that software should become obsolete so fast, while hardware... which moves at least as fast as software... should stay still. I know we are currently at the point where we have computer power excess to requirements, but that hasn't stopped the progression and I'm sure hackers could find a way to exploit the speed.
In fact, the progression right now has stopped.
We are seeing a 'barrier' around 3GHz, and a trend to re-use the old multi-processor approach on one die...
We are seeing a 'barrier' around 3GHz, and a trend to re-use the old multi-processor approach on one die...
| QUOTE (Wiseman) | ||
yea by yourself. But if me and four others each write one. We get all four in 6 months. Yay! A lot of code is started by one hacker and later finished by another. File sharing is a big thing, and hacker's love the "us against them" mentality. But catch this, it takes far less to "upgrade" a program than it does to start from scratch. Though no mechanic exists for this, its very feasible and possible to spend a little time each month tweaking your programs to the latest news on the hacker blogs. is it unfeasible to get all you programs free? Damn right it is, it should cost you some of them earned/owned rewards. But that still isn't justification for why all your programs should degrade as a game mechanic. |
no. if you and 4 other hackers get together to write a program, that's called a teamwork test.
on account of you have to waste time making all the separate components fit together, you will (on average) get an extra 4 dice on your test (on average 1.33 hits) per hacker that helps you write a program. so you and 4 equally skilled buddies are looking at a dice pool of 28, or on average 9.33 hits. that's 1 year for system, half a year for firewall.
by the time you finish, you're going to need new programs.
and i personally would rule you need at least a software "shop" for multiple people working together, since a kit wouldn't include the tools to do it properly, so that's gonna be 5,000
as well (or -2 on everyone's tests, and an average of only 10 dice + 3.33 dice per extra hacker, or around 23.33 dice in your pool, an average of just under 8 hits.and all this assumes no one glitches (which would remove dice, iirc) or critical glitches (which would botch everything iirc) which while not likely are not impossible either.
frankly, i'd rather just go on a few runs, earn some money, and buy the program. it's faster, and i'll come out with more money in the end on account of i didn't have to spend all that time writing code.
| QUOTE |
| no. if you and 4 other hackers get together to write a program, that's called a teamwork test. |
We don't all write the same program.
I write armor, joe buddy writes attack, beaver writes a stealth, and the gimp writes a scan. Then we all share.
Point is that the concept of access to even elite programs among "those in the know" and obviously once game has begun speaks to a greater ease for upgrades and updates.
Need new programs? Consider that most of the system attributes are derived from device rating, and that device rating is set by category (and alterable by GM initiative) I don't get your point.
Ratings are relative, If I want the players to go up against something their programs are a little outdated to, because this is new cutting edge shite, then I raise the device rating above the norm to 7-9 to account for it.
Otherwise I don't see a point of SOTA as a game mechanic other than a lifestyle cost, a general hacker test once a month or so, or even the RP of attending the annual underground hacker convention once in awhile.
(Metalsmith, is that you?)
You can't all work on a different OS. OS creation takes forever. Teamwork rules are the only way to speed it up.
You can't all work on a different OS. OS creation takes forever. Teamwork rules are the only way to speed it up.
| QUOTE (Wiseman) |
| We don't all write the same program. I write armor, joe buddy writes attack, beaver writes a stealth, and the gimp writes a scan. Then we all share. |
ok, so first off, that gets you about 1/5 of the way or so towards getting all your hacking and common use programs up to speed. so that's like a year from now you'll have all those. *then* you'll have to whip up an OS... system will take you about a year if you all work together, a year and a half otherwise. firewall will take you about half that, iirc.
then, if you want an agent, that'll take about a year and a half, or about a year if you all work on it together.
the fact that it changes from about 15+ years for one hacker to about 2.5-3+ years for a small group doesn't change the fact that it's too long to be practical for a runner.
about the only time it is practical to write your own programs, is if you have so many people that you're going to blow away the threshold so massively in the first interval that the GM houserules you finish it faster. (probably a critical success at minimum)
Considering the time vs money thing, its more cost effective to buy a better OS and maybe programs too than to upgrade them via programing. Then break the copy protection on them to spread them around if you want.
Ref p240 for coding time intervals
Ref p228 for the section on copy protection
Ref p240 for coding time intervals
Ref p228 for the section on copy protection
| QUOTE |
| ok, so first off, that gets you about 1/5 of the way or so towards getting all your hacking and common use programs up to speed. so that's like a year from now you'll have all those. *then* you'll have to whip up an OS... system will take you about a year if you all work together, a year and a half otherwise. firewall will take you about half that, iirc. |
But you do see the point. That was with only 4 hackers, Matrix groups have much more than 4 on average. A little networking goes a long way. Would I allow my players to build all their programs?> Ah Hell no.
The point was brought up to show that Hackers had the capability to update their own programs to account for SOTA, and it would be reasonable that the time to "update" would be much less than the time needed to write from scratch.
To me its an easily fluff explained wash-out. I assume everyone is updating all the time, but the ratings remain relative. I don't track the cost of picking up fries at the stuffer shack anymore than I track the cost of gas (or whatever) in their vehicles. Its subsumed under lifestyle.
To be clear:
I agree that no one hacker could feasibly write all his programs.
I disagree that time degrading program ratings as a game mechanic is a good thing or useful.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Except that with the current programming rules it's literally impossible for a hacker to program even a significant fraction of his own suite. Just one would take nearly six months' constant effort, and by that time SOTA will have (likely) made it halfway obsolete. |
Thats not how software development works. If I start developing a program now, it won't be SOTA of (now) but SOTA of (when its finished). I will use all the latest and greatest new technology during development. That is the whole reason for the SOTA cycle. My software will, at the point where it's finished, be outdated compared to stuff still in development, but not to stuff already on the market (that would loose ratings because of my new program!) ) or coming out simultainously (that would be as SOTA as my software).
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