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Dentris
I was testing prime runners for a future Shadowrun campaign i would like to GM and i came across something i really wasn't sure how to handle.

Are possessed characters limited in the increase a spirit may give them?

I mean, is a human with a strength of 4, possessed by a rating 6 spirit would have a strength of 9 (maximum human augmented attribute) or 10 (as I'm not sure if spirits may break this limit)
hyzmarca
When a character is possessed it isn't the spirit adding its attributes to the character's so much as it is the character adding his attributes to the spirit's. Spirits dont have attribute caps. However, in the event of channeling those caps may well apply.

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Cold-Dragon
THere's no mention of obeying the maximum's with possession - since your body is being supercharged with supernatural energy (or whatever you want to call it) the normal limitations of your body aren't considered when force is added.

This, of course, lets you have fun with the concept of tiny person lifting up a big brute by sheer strength/body, or security doors pulled off hinges. wink.gif
mintcar
If we follow the same logic as in the errata for BBB, the caps can only be ignored if the bonus is a number added to a test and not an attribute. Since the errata these exceptions are pretty well documented. I don't have Street Magic, so I don't know what it says there. If it's clear that it's the player's stats that are added to the spirit's, that should let you ignore the caps I guess.
Cold-Dragon
QUOTE (mintcar)
If we follow the same logic as in the errata for BBB, the caps can only be ignored if the bonus is a number added to a test and not an attribute. Since the errata these exceptions are pretty well documented. I don't have Street Magic, so I don't know what it says there. If it's clear that it's the player's stats that are added to the spirit's, that should let you ignore the caps I guess.

Forgive the question (because I know some will react badly to me asking, more than likely). What is the BBB and where is it's errata? If this has important stuff I should know, then I should find out. ^-^;
mintcar
BBB is big black book. The main rules for the game in question, in this case SR4. People use that short here a lot, so it caught on.

The errata is here:
SR4 errata v. 1.3
knasser
QUOTE (Dentris @ Sep 12 2006, 08:02 PM)
I was testing prime runners for a future Shadowrun campaign i would like to GM and i came across something i really wasn't sure how to handle.

Are possessed characters limited in the increase a spirit may give them?

I mean, is a human with a strength of 4, possessed by a rating 6 spirit would have a strength of 9 (maximum human augmented attribute) or 10 (as I'm not sure if spirits may break this limit)


I say it's unlimited. Street Magic simply says that the spirit's force is added to the vessel's physical attributes. If there were a cap, I really think the designers would have stated this explicitly as there is such a tremendous need to if this is the case. Also, SM says the the "resulting entity" is a dual natured being. So when someone is possessed, they're actually treated as a new being. And what would be the cap for a non-living vessel? A car gets its body boosted and presumably this has no cap so I don't see a need to impose one on the living vessels.

Also consider that if you're capping this, then you're giving up the chance to use a possessed little girl as the big bad villain. And as GMs we all have a natural instinct to do this. biggrin.gif

If the underlying question that prompted this is are possessing spirits balanced, then I think a GM should also consider how co-operative or not a possessing spirit is. SR4 says that the higher the Force of the spirit, the more independent an entity it is and the less it likes being bound, etc. It's bad enough if a materialisation tradition mage has pissed off his spirits. For a possession mage, it gets a lot more interesting. For a spirit that really didn't want to be there, I'd have it do odd little things, like cut itself with knives so the mage got a box or two of physical, became abusive and upsetting to the mage's teamates, things like that. Possession should be creepy.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (knasser)
Also consider that if you're capping this, then you're giving up the chance to use a possessed little girl as the big bad villain. And as GMs we all have a natural instinct to do this. biggrin.gif


Not really. The attribute cap is static, unlike the skill cap. It is always (Racial Max)*1.5. So, a newborn infant possessed by a force 8 spirit would still have stats of 9 across the board even if you ruled that the augmented maximums applied.

However, since the possessing being uses its own mental stats and its own skills, I would not make that ruling.
James McMurray
I would not make it apply, and then reverse that ruling if it turned out to be too powerful in play.
Demerzel
Synner answered a similar question regarding inhabitation in this thread:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...topic=14310&hl=

I'd assume possession was the same.
knasser
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (knasser @ Sep 13 2006, 03:20 AM)
Also consider that if you're capping this, then you're giving up the chance to use a possessed little girl as the big bad villain. And as GMs we all have a natural instinct to do this. biggrin.gif


Not really. The attribute cap is static, unlike the skill cap. It is always (Racial Max)*1.5. So, a newborn infant possessed by a force 8 spirit would still have stats of 9 across the board even if you ruled that the augmented maximums applied.

However, since the possessing being uses its own mental stats and its own skills, I would not make that ruling.

Yes. But I want Little Miss Pigtails to throw the Troll across the room. Sometimes, I'm just in a mood that can only be described as... D&Dish.

12 Strength for my game, please! biggrin.gif
hyzmarca
Now you've given me an idea. Recreate the movie Superbabies:Baby Geniuses 2 using well-fed blood spirits.
Kremlin KOA
screw that
recreate universal soldier with Shedim
FrankTrollman
Yes, your stat increases from Possession are uncapped, even with Chanelling. At that point you are a Spirit, and Spirits do not have capped attributes.

-Frank
Dentris
Thanks a lot for the answer...
cybertrucker
QUOTE (Cold-Dragon)
THere's no mention of obeying the maximum's with possession - since your body is being supercharged with supernatural energy (or whatever you want to call it) the normal limitations of your body aren't considered when force is added.

This, of course, lets you have fun with the concept of tiny person lifting up a big brute by sheer strength/body, or security doors pulled off hinges. wink.gif

I would have to say that is wrong... adepts have their bodies supercharged with supernatural energy and they still have to follow maximum caps...


Heck if a borg arm still has to follow racial maximums I would say so would possession. Personally i have been debating doing away with the maximums still not sure yet though. I mean a fully robotic arm should be able to have insane amounts of strength.
Slithery D
Then it's wrong because it's the spirit's attributes, not the metahumans. And it would be silly for a Force 12 possession spirit, if such a thing existed, to have the same attributes in human form as the average human possesed by a Force 6 when materialization spirits face no such limitations.
lorechaser
Cybertrucker: A robot arm could have insane strength. But the point is that it's still attached to a human body.

Trying to lift 4 tons with your robots arms is going to put huge stresses on the joints and connections. At some point, those connections are wired directly in to the human body, which is why there are limits.

That, and game balance.

cybertrucker
And those same human or metahuman limitations (aka joints) would apply even if possessed by a spirit.. the limits were put there to balance the game. They apply to magic as much as they do technology, Being supercharged by a spirit is in no way different than being supercharged by a spell or being an adept.. the limits still apply.

as for the borg arm argument, i realize that for lifting conditions that argument is valid. However you are still limited on the strength rating you can purchase how are my leg joints going to effect how much strength i have when i grab someones neck and start to squeeze with my cyber arm.

The game is set up to balance out, if your going to do away with the limits that balance it out for one thing you might as well do it for everything else as well.

Thats just my 2 cents

Slithery D
Except in the limited case of Channeling metamagic, it's the spirit that is in control. Don't think of it as a human receiving boosts that should be capped; think of it as a spirit wearing human flesh that give the spirit a boost, replacing the pluses (and minuses) of its regular materalized form.

Giving a spirit with Hardened Armor extra Body dice is usually superfluous, especially since only high Force spirits will succeed on possession tests with high reliability, and a couple of extra dice for its Unarmed Combat or Exotic Weapon skills (if the host has high Agility) is hardly unbalanced, either. And it loses some things like astral mobility and a generally higher movement rate in materialized form.

In any case, if you put caps on possessed attributes, you'd have to somehow argue that a high force spirit possessing a troll or ork becomes dumber than it was in astral space. How does that work? It's not thinking with the possessed vessels mind, or it would be dumb as a post when it possessed inanimate objects like...posts. It's adding the vessel's attributes to it's own Force, not its Force to the controlled and no longer relevant vessel.

For Channeling, it's true that a magician can get a sizable attribute boost that can help his (low) Combat or Physical skills. But to stay in control they also give up some advantages, like the spirits 2 IP and every use of a spirit power costs a service; if you want a wholesale "kill all of those guys" one service discount, you have to give up control. And for reasonable magician Agility and spirit Force, a cap won't matter anyway. Forcing awkward rules inconsistent with the principal relevant rules (for spirits, not metahuman attribute caps) isn't worth any "abuse."
James McMurray
Easy enough, just say the spirit uses it's own mental stats and modifies the bodies base stats. It seems pretty obvious that's what is happening anyway (although I haven't read the rules). Does a spirit only enhance the body or does possession also increase Logic, Willpower, etc.?
FrankTrollman
Actually the human's physical stats are added to the spirit's Force, not so much the other way around. The entity at that point is the spirit, which is being supercharged in the physical plane by being confined into a physical object like it was a Makai Kingdoms character.

Don't think of it as a human getting Popeye music playing - think of it as an astral entity having a bridge to the physical plane to allow it to be more fully active here.

Spirits do not have attribute caps. When they possess humans they don't get attribute caps.

-Frank
James McMurray
IMO if it's using the human arms to lift things then it's limited by the max human capacity for lifting.

What about Channeling? Is that a human being possessed (because he can control his body) or is it a human possessing a spirit who's possessing him (because he controls the spirit's mind that controls the body)?
knasser
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Does a spirit only enhance the body or does possession also increase Logic, Willpower, etc.?


There are two cases. The standard is normal possession and this enhances the physical attributes by the spirits force (and initiative as a consequence). The mental stats are entirely superceded by the spirit's own.

The second case is where the possessee has the channelling metamagic and the spirit is friendly. In this case physical attributes are handled the same but mental attributes are the lowest of the two entities. Thus there can be no boost to the mental stats, but if the mage had summoned a powerful spirit, he] would be hampering the spirit.

It's just occurred to me, but that would probably be another example of how high force spirits get pissed off by being summoned by little mages. Must be annoying having to cram yourself into that little mortal head. smile.gif
Slithery D
QUOTE (James McMurray)
IMO if it's using the human arms to lift things then it's limited by the max human capacity for lifting.

What about Channeling? Is that a human being possessed (because he can control his body) or is it a human possessing a spirit who's possessing him (because he controls the spirit's mind that controls the body)?

Possession is somewhat visible, and possession spirits with the Engulf power can create water/fire/earth around them go Engulf someone they engage. So consider them to be a form of thin astral goo smoothed over the vessel and doing the real work, with the body underneath providing a "push." The arms themselves aren't doing the work, they're helping the spirit that's doing the work through its bastardized/limited form of materalization.

Channeling - it's both. They "share control." The mage can use his own abilities/skills through fine control of the spirit's control of his body.
James McMurray
That's how I figured it worked. Thanks! I'll stick to my "Spirit mind in an enhanced mortal body" setup if/when it becomes important in a game.
Slithery D
QUOTE (knasser @ Sep 15 2006, 12:51 PM)
The second case is where the possessee has the channelling metamagic and the spirit is friendly. In this case physical attributes are handled the same but mental attributes are the lowest of the two entities. Thus there can be no boost to the mental stats, but if the mage had summoned a powerful spirit, he] would be hampering the spirit.

That's not right. The Channeling possessed dual entity resists spells and mana powers with the lowest mental attributes. Any summoner ability use (Perception/Etiquette) would still use his attribute, and the spirit's would effect any spirit powers (Accident, Compulsion, etc.). The weaker mind resists an effect thrown at them, but each uses its own stats for its own actions.
knasser
QUOTE (Slithery D)
QUOTE (knasser @ Sep 15 2006, 12:51 PM)
The second case is where the possessee has the channelling metamagic and the spirit is friendly. In this case physical attributes are handled the same but mental attributes are the lowest of the two entities. Thus there can be no boost to the mental stats, but if the mage had summoned a powerful spirit, he] would be hampering the spirit.

That's not right. The Channeling possessed dual entity resists spells and mana powers with the lowest mental attributes. Any summoner ability use (Perception/Etiquette) would still use his attribute, and the spirit's would effect any spirit powers (Accident, Compulsion, etc.). The weaker mind resists an effect thrown at them, but each uses its own stats for its own actions.


Well bugger me!. You're right!

I never bothered to go back and check that power, I realise now. Just read it once and thought I'd got it.

Cheers!
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (James McMurray)
That's how I figured it worked. Thanks! I'll stick to my "Spirit mind in an enhanced mortal body" setup if/when it becomes important in a game.

In that case it'll never come up in your games because spirits limited by the augmented attribute caps are severely underpowered relative to normal spirits.

If possession spirits were limited by the augmented caps, people would avoid them like the plague. Higher attributes are the benefit you get for the substantial limitations of possession.

-Frank
James McMurray
Ok. Thanks for the input. And I'm glad you know my game. wink.gif

Most likely it won't come up because I'm the only one with Street Magic and we probably won't make new characters for a long time. My Rigger won't be needing SM, and even if I were to decide to share my electronic copy, the mage in the party has already chosen to be hermetic. The GM might use it, but in that case it's his interpretation that matters, not mine or yours. smile.gif
Slithery D
Another reason the metahuman caps don't make sense is that if they applied to a spirit in a metahuman vessel is that they should then also apply to a spirit in a weak homonculous. An average human with attribute 3 and max of 6 couldn't have an attribute over 9. What, then, are the caps on a basic wicker man homonculous that only gives bonuses of 1 or 2? Surely there's some max beyond which wicker cannot be enhanced before it reaches its physical limits, and its somewhere well short of what a human can do.

The (uncapped) spirit is enhanced by the vessel, not the other way around.
James McMurray
The Wicker Man is specifically created to act as a vessel, people are not.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (James McMurray)
The Wicker Man is specifically created to act as a vessel, people are not.

Unless, say, you prepare them as a vessel.

-Frank
James McMurray
Are wicker men crafted from the start as being a vessel for a spirit, or are they crafted for kicks and then modified? I might change my stance if the person has been prepared as a vessel, but would have to see the rules for it.
Slithery D
To the extent a wicker man is physically "prepared" as a vessel, it's still a weaker shell and less suitable for high power lifting or athletics than a human body. In any case, any physical object that has the potential for articulated movement can be animated by possession and used for motion and manipulation of the world. A possessed coil of rope should be able to, with a great Agility and terrible Strength and Body. Department store manequines (if they've got any hinged joints) and common scarecrows work, too. (A wicker man is really not much different than the latter.)

But a "prepared vessel" in SM game terms is one that has been alchemically prepared with Enchanting skill and appropriate materials to make possession easier, not one that it is particularly suitable for possession because of the shape or composition of its physical form. You can "prepare" a square block of alloy for possession if you want.
knasser
QUOTE (Slithery D)
To the extent a wicker man is physically "prepared" as a vessel, it's still a weaker shell and less suitable for high power lifting or athletics than a human body. In any case, any physical object that has the potential for articulated movement can be animated by possession and used for motion and manipulation of the world. A possessed coil of rope should be able to, with a great Agility and terrible Strength and Body. Department store manequines (if they've got any hinged joints) and common scarecrows work, too. (A wicker man is really not much different than the latter.)

But a "prepared vessel" in SM game terms is one that has been alchemically prepared with Enchanting skill and appropriate materials to make possession easier, not one that it is particularly suitable for possession because of the shape or composition of its physical form. You can "prepare" a square block of alloy for possession if you want.

But it will be an evil block of alloy.
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