The gear section seems to indicate that for every Cyber limb, you add one damage box to your track. So if you only have a cyber hand, does that still add one full damage box?
If so, Could you then get 4 extra damage boxes for 1 ess by getting your hands and feet replaced with cyber?
The rules don't seem to specify if you only get partial damage boxes for partial cyber limbs, so what do you think?
Full Version: Partial Cyber limbs and Damage boxes
I would rule that a big "no". No enough metal to warrant the additional toughness.
| QUOTE (Geekkake) |
| I would rule that a big "no". No enough metal to warrant the additional toughness. |
So would you rule that a lower limb replacement is like 1/2 a full limb so two half limbs would make a full damage box? And a hand/foot is like 1/4 of a full limb so replacing hands and feet would make a full damage box?
well technically, a hand isn't a limb. It's an appendage. Ditto for feet. So by the letter of the rules, they just don't count.
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| well technically, a hand isn't a limb. It's an appendage. Ditto for feet. So by the letter of the rules, they just don't count. |
They have cyberhands and cyberfeet listed under "cyberlimbs", so by the letter of the rules they are cyberlimbs.
While you would get 4 extra damage boxes from 2 cyberhands and 2 cyberfeet, I think that the drawback to that circumstance is that you can't have very high physical attributes. All cyberlimbs have a attribute rating of 3, and you can't go past a total of 6 without a cybertorso, which is 1.5 essence and 20,000 nuyen. And even if you do have a cybertorso, they only have 4 capacity. And none of the other attribute-enhancing 'ware affects a cyberlimb.
Might be a little unbalanced, but there is certainly a drawback.
The attributes of cyber hands and feet only come into play when doing something specifically with your hands (like trying to grip an object). Those attributes wouldn't be used when, say, firing a gun, but would be used when trying to pickpocket. That's what the cyberlimbs section says.
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| well technically, a hand isn't a limb. It's an appendage. Ditto for feet. So by the letter of the rules, they just don't count. |
According to the table on 336 they are limbs, they're listed right under Obvious Limb and Synthetic Limb just like full length replacements.
A limb can also be considered an appendage.
If you're counting cyberhands as +1 to damage track, are you counting cyber arms as +2, since they encompass both the arm, and the hand?
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| The attributes of cyber hands and feet only come into play when doing something specifically with your hands (like trying to grip an object). Those attributes wouldn't be used when, say, firing a gun, but would be used when trying to pickpocket. That's what the cyberlimbs section says. |
Well, in the text they use punching someone as an example for a full arm, so I'd imagine it applies to shooting guns with a single hand, as well. I assumed that if you were firing a gun with a cyberhand with an Agility of 3, and your natural Agility for the rest of the arm is 6, you have to average them and round down, giving you an effective Agility of 4. Also in the example we see that the character's Body attribute for the purposes of resisting damage is the average of cyberlimbs and the actual attribute.
Given that all cyberlimbs have a starting Body of 3, you would automatically lose a Damage Resistance die for even a single cyberhand unless your Body is 3 or less or you enhance the cyberhand. And if you do enchance it, that's less capacity for strength and agility.
| QUOTE (Steak and Spirits) |
| If you're counting cyberhands as +1 to damage track, are you counting cyber arms as +2, since they encompass both the arm, and the hand? |
No, actually we count full cyberarms as +3, lower arms are +2 and hands are +1.
I kid, I kid.
| QUOTE (Glayvin34) |
| Given that all cyberlimbs have a starting Body of 3, you would automatically lose a Damage Resistance die for even a single cyberhand unless your Body is 3 or less or you enhance the cyberhand. And if you do enchance it, that's less capacity for strength and agility. |
Hm for losing a Damage Resistance die for a hand, seems like you should get a Damage box for compensation
Right on 
I'm all for anything that gives cyberware an advantage over the rampant munchiness/ridiculousness of magic.
I'm all for anything that gives cyberware an advantage over the rampant munchiness/ridiculousness of magic.
| QUOTE (Glayvin34) | ||
Well, in the text they use punching someone as an example for a full arm, so I'd imagine it applies to shooting guns with a single hand, as well. I assumed that if you were firing a gun with a cyberhand with an Agility of 3, and your natural Agility for the rest of the arm is 6, you have to average them and round down, giving you an effective Agility of 4. Also in the example we see that the character's Body attribute for the purposes of resisting damage is the average of cyberlimbs and the actual attribute. Given that all cyberlimbs have a starting Body of 3, you would automatically lose a Damage Resistance die for even a single cyberhand unless your Body is 3 or less or you enhance the cyberhand. And if you do enchance it, that's less capacity for strength and agility. |
Man, thats not how it works.
A cyber-hand/foot will hardly ever come into play when calculating body unless someone targets a hand/foot specifically. One could argue that a cyber hand would affect firing a gun, but the typical samauri will have a smartlink and not even deal with trigger pull problems.
If I had to rule on this issue I would give a plus to damage boxes when partial limbs combined essense loss equals that of a full limb of the same grade.
| QUOTE (Squinky) |
| Man, thats not how it works. A cyber-hand/foot will hardly ever come into play when calculating body unless someone targets a hand/foot specifically. |
Well, given that hands and feet are pretty much never targeted specifically and the rules seem to say that a single cyberhand gives a whole extra damage box (not just for the hand), our GM ruled that a single cyberhand or foot both increased overall toughness (extra damage box that applies for all damage) AND is factored into overall body. Seemed the only way to balance the issue. Lagomorph noticed the same thing and I think that's why he started the thread.
| QUOTE (Squinky) |
| One could argue that a cyber hand would affect firing a gun, but the typical samauri will have a smartlink and not even deal with trigger pull problems. |
What do you mean? You still need your hand and arm to aim, pulling the trigger doesn't have much to do with aiming.
| QUOTE (Squinky) |
| If I had to rule on this issue I would give a plus to damage boxes when partial limbs combined essense loss equals that of a full limb of the same grade. |
That makes sense. If you don't like my interpretation of the rules, this is a fairly viable alternative. You would need all four cyber hands and feet to get another damage box.
I doubt the agility of your fingers affects your aiming. I don't know much about firing guns, but does one's dexterity come into play when aiming? It doesn't seem like it should. Hand-Eye coordination is what counts, but aiming involves moving the entire arm not swivling your wrist, correct?
Why would Cyberhand AGI count towards marksmanship?
Why would Cyberhand AGI count towards marksmanship?
The rules do say that a cyberlimb gives an extra damage box, which if you wanted to interpret that as meaning partial limbs do also, you could easily. But I prefer to interpret that as meaning an entire limb. At this point it is really down to that.
On the cyberhand being involed in firing a gun thing:
When you fire a gun you can very easily throw off your aim with a bad trigger pull. Thats about all the interaction your hand has with the gun, the rest is your arm doing the aiming. Smartlink removes the need for the hand to pull the trigger.
On the cyberhand being involed in firing a gun thing:
When you fire a gun you can very easily throw off your aim with a bad trigger pull. Thats about all the interaction your hand has with the gun, the rest is your arm doing the aiming. Smartlink removes the need for the hand to pull the trigger.
| QUOTE (Squinky) |
| The rules do say that a cyberlimb gives an extra damage box, which if you wanted to interpret that as meaning partial limbs do also, you could easily. But I prefer to interpret that as meaning an entire limb. At this point it is really down to that. |
True. Our GM decided to rule that hands and feet give the extra box, but then also affect your attributes. I guess you can rule either way:
A cyberhand or cyberfoot affects your whole person, giving you an extra damage box AND factoring into attribute scores
or
In the absence of a full limb, there's no extra damage box and the attributes of the cyberlimb are localized.
| QUOTE (Squinky) |
| When you fire a gun you can very easily throw off your aim with a bad trigger pull. Thats about all the interaction your hand has with the gun, the rest is your arm doing the aiming. Smartlink removes the need for the hand to pull the trigger. |
Yeah, the whole pull versus squeeze thing, a smartlink would take care of that. But you still have to hold your hand perfectly steady, keep your wrist in a certain position, grip the gun properly to avoid recoil, that kind of thing. Seems to me that would depend on your hand's natural agility/dexterity. If your hand has less agility than your arm, I think it would be a disadvantage.
On a similar note, wouldn't a cyberfoot affect your running and jumping? Sure, running is mostly legs, but also depends on ankles and toes.
| QUOTE (Squinky) | ||||
Man, thats not how it works. A cyber-hand/foot will hardly ever come into play when calculating body unless someone targets a hand/foot specifically. One could argue that a cyber hand would affect firing a gun, but the typical samauri will have a smartlink and not even deal with trigger pull problems. If I had to rule on this issue I would give a plus to damage boxes when partial limbs combined essense loss equals that of a full limb of the same grade. |
Shadowrun uses an abstract damage system that treats the entire body holistically; this is why thin armored jump suits can stop a rifle slug just as easily as a hardened ceramic plate. The hand should always count unless it is specifically not targeted.
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) | ||
According to the table on 336 they are limbs, they're listed right under Obvious Limb and Synthetic Limb just like full length replacements. A limb can also be considered an appendage. |
There is also the matter of Hands and Feet being referred to as 'partial cyberlimbs', while the rules state that you get an extra box for each 'cyberlimb'.
Partial Cyberlimb != Cyberlimb
No extra damage boxes for you. Well, not in my game, anyway.
Another thought about this...if it really is only full cyberlimbs that give you an extra box, is it really worth it? We're talking about 0.8 essence for alphaware at character gen, and all you get is a flat 3 in physical attributes for the limb, and one extra box of damage. Kind of a rip-off, isn't it? You could get a platelet factory for 0.25 essence and 25k nuyen, that'll take a box off of every damage you take over 1 box.
Also, I'm a little unclear on how cyberlimb armor works. They talk about averaging out stats in some cases in the book, for damage resistance with body, for example. But what about armor? Does it just add onto your existing ballistic/impact armor? Because averaging it with your worn armor doesn't make any sense...you'd end up lowering your armor by having a cyberarm instead of adding to it.
On the other hand, flat-out adding to it seems like that would be too powerful. So how does it work?
Also, I'm a little unclear on how cyberlimb armor works. They talk about averaging out stats in some cases in the book, for damage resistance with body, for example. But what about armor? Does it just add onto your existing ballistic/impact armor? Because averaging it with your worn armor doesn't make any sense...you'd end up lowering your armor by having a cyberarm instead of adding to it.
On the other hand, flat-out adding to it seems like that would be too powerful. So how does it work?
Cyberlimbs seem to be more a channel for interesting extra 'ware, rather than badass limbs, from my reading.
Getting an obvious cyberarm won't make you a particularly better combatant.
A full arm has 15 capacity.
In to that, you can add:
A Gyromount (4)
Cyber SMG (10)
Or
Spurs (3)
Cyberarm Slide (
Gyromount (4)
That lets you be a bit more stealthy, but at the same time, it's an obvious cyberarm - it's not like hiding a gun in it is subtle....
Getting an obvious cyberarm won't make you a particularly better combatant.
A full arm has 15 capacity.
In to that, you can add:
A Gyromount (4)
Cyber SMG (10)
Or
Spurs (3)
Cyberarm Slide (
Gyromount (4)
That lets you be a bit more stealthy, but at the same time, it's an obvious cyberarm - it's not like hiding a gun in it is subtle....
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| Another thought about this...if it really is only full cyberlimbs that give you an extra box, is it really worth it? We're talking about 0.8 essence for alphaware at character gen, and all you get is a flat 3 in physical attributes for the limb, and one extra box of damage. Kind of a rip-off, isn't it? You could get a platelet factory for 0.25 essence and 25k nuyen, that'll take a box off of every damage you take over 1 box. Also, I'm a little unclear on how cyberlimb armor works. They talk about averaging out stats in some cases in the book, for damage resistance with body, for example. But what about armor? Does it just add onto your existing ballistic/impact armor? Because averaging it with your worn armor doesn't make any sense...you'd end up lowering your armor by having a cyberarm instead of adding to it. On the other hand, flat-out adding to it seems like that would be too powerful. So how does it work? |
No, full cyberlimbs aren't particularly worth it. I went with partial on my character because I don't need 50 capacity, just 4 or 6 or so.
As for armor, there have been a number of threads on it, but my opinion is that they add directly to armor with out being averaged. It's one small way to make cyberlimbs worthwhile, since the rules currently just totally crap out for them.
I'm going to see about getting my GM to house rule that the stats of the limbs start at the characters stats (or at the very least at the average for the meta type). Otherwise you spend all of the capacity of a limb just trying to get back to the normal stats of the character. (A troll with 8 avg str would by rules, need a cybertorso just to be an average troll again, trolls get +5 str right? or +4, it works either way)
Here's something else thats wacky, I think having a cyber torso would make it possible to exceed the +3 enhancement even on partial limbs. That makes no sense what so ever.
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) |
| I'm going to see about getting my GM to house rule that the stats of the limbs start at the characters stats (or at the very least at the average for the meta type). Otherwise you spend all of the capacity of a limb just trying to get back to the normal stats of the character. (A troll with 8 avg str would by rules, need a cybertorso just to be an average troll again, trolls get +5 str right? or +4, it works either way) |
I rule the same thing. I figure if someone is big (indicated by a high strength, or being an ork/troll), the limbs should match the rest of their body -- giving extra strength etc without taking up capacity, due to the limbs themselves being bigger.
I handle this just by giving limbs the same stats as the person they're attached to. They're expensive enough (in terms of essence) that this isn't bad, in my opinion.
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