ok, so having done some brief research, it seems to me as if technomancers may be able to just thread themselves up a complex for of random knowsofts and linguasofts. skillsofts/autosofts too, for that matter, but they don't have skillwires (nor can standard skillwires use CFs, anyways) or a pilot rating (which is all that is needed for autosofts).

anyways, the upshot of all this is: it seems a technomancer can basically just thread themselves pretty much any knowsoft or linguasoft in existence.

can anyone find something to disprove this?

Skillsofts are no Programs?

skillsofts are indeed programs. but you need skillwires to use them, and normal devices can't run complex forms (only technomancers can), and technomancers don't have natural skillwires capable of running skillsoft CFs.

on the other hand, knowsofts and linguasofts just require a DNI between where they are stored and where they are supposed to go.

since technomancers can access VR, it is evident that they have a DNI between themselves and themselves

You could subscribe to a device or node at your house/hideout with a linguasoft saved on it, and activate it whenever you need to suddenly be speaking another language. Just blow a bunch of cash on buying up any language you can think of, and save them all on the coffeepot. When you absolutely must be speaking Mandarin at that very moment, it'll come in handy. Meanwhile, you could make sure that the pot will start brewing at 8:07 am precisely.

hmmm... so basically it's kinda like the splitting skill groups in chargen thing...

it's strongly implied (by page reference) but never really explicitly stated... and the designers most likely intended for skillsofts to not be included.

on the other hand, it just says programs, nothing about which specific programs are available, so if a GM felt like allowing it (or caves in to a rules lawyer) it could be possible.

now normally, i'd go with what the designers intended, figuring that's about right... on the other hand, this would be a kinda nifty boost for technomancers, basically allowing them a teamwork bonus to all knowledge skills for all intents and purposes, but at -2 to the dice pool from sustaining usually.

of course, if they decide to specialise in this it could get nuts... (cerebral booster, photographic memory quality, and such could make their dice pool go pretty nuts...)

and also, for the time being at least, technomancers could really use the boost. at least this way they'll be able to do "legwork" of sorts, though i would probably limit them in their choices to prevent silliness (ie "the johnson i'm working for right now is not acceptable... Seattle Johnsons would be, or maybe even as specific as Seattle Corporate Johnsons or whatever, forcing them to make some guesses where the Johnson is from)

but yeah, you're probably right about what they *intended* the rule to be.

[edit] that being said, system and firewall are programs listed in the "program cost and availability chart" and certainly fits the definition of making things happen in the matrix =P i'm sure that was not intended either though [/edit]

OH NO! It's Intention vs. RAW!

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

A good thing to think about might be if it makes any sense. Initially I said no, threading those things is totally nuts, but thinking about the idea that technomancers feel a constant pulse of data all the time, for them to be able to extract from that a sudden understanding of a subject would be kinda neat, if the GM thinks it's a cool idea.

Now, if you extended it to skillsofts, you'd be giving up some Resonance, but you might also making technomancers incredibly powerful - maybe unbalancingly so, although with TMs being as weak as they are, it might be worth trying all the same. In this case, you end up with the technomancer who can channel the collective knowledge and expertise of the entire Matrix.

In game terms, though, it's perfectly clear: The Complex Forms paragraph references programs on p. 225, which lists Common Use and Hacking programs, exclusively, and individually by name.

This is definitely an intriguing topic right now. I like it, just because it helps give technomancers a bit more to tempt people with, if it works.

Now I can agree that the direction to pg 225 makes it look like it discludes knowsofts and similar, but anyone that looks knows it would be redundant to relist all the skills in a list for things under there - especially since that section is for the particular programs of common use and hacking. Softs have their own section over in street gear, and you are given the understanding that a particular soft is a particular thng (unless you start combining them, in which case, have fun).

I would say that since softs are listed on the programs/availability near 225 (and the other things on the list are already referred elsewhere in source), that they are useable, barring the obvious limitations such as with skillsofts.

Of course, I don't see a major crushing effect of allowing this - since the NPC's can use it too. Gander Goose and troll juice. Anyone with the matrix can do it anyways, why not let the walking computers do what they could in the first place?


...but now watch someone that worked on the book tell us: Heck no! We didn't want THAT!.

I miss all those fun moments of watching important people talk, heheh.

No, it's pretty clear-cut in the book in the Gear section as well, where it describes programs "commonly used for Matrix activities" and references p. 225, goes on to Datachips and Datasofts/Mapsofts, and then later on, under a different heading, brings up Skillsofts - activesofts, knowsofts, and linguasofts. It's perfectly clear that complex forms are in analogy to (not even the same as, the book also mentions using the same names for convienience) Matrix programs, which are different from skillsofts, active- or otherwise, and so, overall, that Threading these is a no-go per the rules.

I'm for it, personally, but it's definitely a GM decision, strictly.

If Complex Forms are Programs, then they should be limited to the System or Rating of the Technomancer.
This would make Technomancers nigh unplayable since Sprites are "like agents" and agents are programs limited by the node.

No no, leave it like it is. Complex Forms, Sprites, and other Technomancer widgets should remain semi-mystical.

Why not? They're permanently linked to the matrix, which, for all it's a scramble of spam, porn, and shadowrunning hackers, does have those official 'download and try our softs!' sites. Who's to say the technomancer isn't pulling data off things like that and meshing them together into a complex form whole?

Alternatively, you could carry around a spirit with the softs you needs on your commlink, and you just speak verbatim to what they're telling you or something. There was a librarian sprite or something like that, wasn't there, that could have knowledge softs at least???

Or get a speaker and put it in your mouth. XD

EDIT:

Erk, that one only does linguasofts...but it DOES state that in the optional CF section! One small, debatable point towards soft complex forms! XD

Well, considering we're not talking about your game, I don't care if you wrap me up in some sort of EMP/ECC/ABC duct tape - I might still pick up something, even if it's a single translation of asking where are the scissors. lol. Maybe you missed a hair on my head and it's serving as an antenna?

Weird thing about this to me is that threading a knowsoft sounds an awful lot like doing a normal Data Search action. I don't think this ability would be necessary.

That is true, threading that sort of information would be much like surfing for it, except a soft would imply instant, reliable data compared to say a bad or faulty search. That, and it wouldn't be quite so detectable compared to checking the net in the middle of a Megacorps building.

Granted, one could treat that sort of threading like a Data search, or you do a data search first, then thread your complex form off the results to determine its quality?

It would kinda make data searching pointless for a Technomancer per se, but if that technomancer wants to share his results with others, he may want to be giving them links and stuff from data searching rather than threading from his head (imagine all the typing you might have to do otherwise...*shudders*).

Don't know if this would work but...

Have a technomancer give up a bit of resonance, and actually get skillwires put in. Download all the active/know/language softs that he can find to his brain? or commlink or some other data storage unit

If technomancers can thread knowsofts, that would mean that they cannot internally run knowsofts as that would clash with the Technomancer and Hacker software don't mix rule. They would have to get a simrig to run normal knowsofts. Same goes for the lower tech BTL's, to some extent.

Also, Knowsofts and skillsofts do not need a commlink to run on, and do not appear to have a limit on the number you can run at once.

Therefore, all in all, as a Technomancer player, while pulling knowledges out of the air would be sweet, it is more in line with the way the game runs to keep them seperate.

Now that I can accept as a reason not to do it.

Sad, but makes mechanical sense.

I haven't read up on technomancers much.

I was suggesting storing the softs on other data storage as I don't know if a technomance can store them in his/her brain.

If the data storage is different from hackers and the rest, is there any reason why they couldn't thread them so that they could be used? store the soft elsewhere if need be, and use them on the skill wires as needed?

Would that violate any rules?

a complex form isn't a format of data you can simply copy and paste. Mind you, complex forms can affect the matrix, so it's not like you couldn't get a result from it, but you can't store a complex form onto any form of memory. :/

That said, if you could thread a CF of knowsoft or similar, it would be a complex form that literally affects you personally, supplying you with instant in-your-head knowledge.

Now, maybe there are ways to extend that information out forward into things (like designing a map virtually through your thoughts (which one can technically do) But you can't directly place the info out there by itself, you'd have to remake it.

...hopefuly I made enough sense for that to work (and hopefully I'm correct in how it works). That definitely kills skillwire stuff at least - I would definitely find that a stretch of mechanics for a CP of a skillsoft to work from your head to your body. That may still keep open some options of the other softs though...maybe, heh.

TMs couldn't use a CF on skillwires because CFs cannot work on hardware. It's like trying to run 64 bit software on a 32 bit machine in a way, they just won't work.

The analogy isn't great, but simply put:

Hardware cannot run a complex form
Technomancer brains can't run normal software
The two are not interchangeable.

We all know that part on skillwires. What people are working on right now are the ones that DON'T use skillwires. knowsoft/linguasoft/map-in-a-cansoft, etc.

And if technomancer brain can't run software, then you seem to have missed the concept of a complex form playing as software for a technomancer.

So the situation is: can a complex form be a thing of knowledge as well as an imitation of matrix commands?

The programs that complex forms can emulate are listed starting on page 225 "Programs" which ends right before "Agents". Simple. In other words, the only programs they can thread are those under the categories "Common Use" and "Hacking". You'll notice this doesn't include Pilot programs, so a TM cannot "thread an agent", nor can they invent an OS on the fly. The book says that technomancers "learn how to manipulate the digital matrix with Complex Forms", which is an apt description of Common Use and Hacking program categories.

It's an intriguing idea. The knowsofts, that is. I agree that activesofts are right out.
Perhaps it could be an Echo limited by Submersion grade. (I apologize if I'm mixing 3rd ed terms in here)

Skillsofts require skillwires to run... and the skillwires have a set number of active Softs that can be run at a time. While I don't have my book here, to check for Knowsofts, they would normally, at least, add to your subscription list.

just for the record, skillsofts is the overall category. it includes activesofts (what you are referring to, since it requires skillwires to run them) knowsofts, and linguasofts.

just thought i'd point that out before it gets confusing.

I think this would be a very interesting use of TM abilities.

It could be as simple as trying to find enough cantonese to make sentences, but if you don't find enough (roll low on threading) all you found was that cantonese ork porn playing down the hall, so you've got to try and string together your sentances using only words from that one source (Sentances like: Oh, yeah, give it to me, I want it). Which would be pretty funny.

I think it probably was not intended by the rules, but it should be. I'll have to see what my GM thinks about this.

Well the idea of a TM throwing together a translation CF is certainly interesting, the question is whether it would work as well as modern ones

Seriously, find a translator... enter some text, translate into a language, put it through a couple more and then back into english. It's totally different.