In Street Magic, it is clearly stated that it is impossible to raise Magic at character creation or using karma, although it is said it is possible to initiate (only once since you may not have an initiate level higher than your magic attribute)
My question is: is it possible to raise magic by 1 after initiating?
Full Version: Knacks and Initiation
Yes, that's kinda how you have to do it...each rank of Initiation increases the MAXIMUM of your Magic attribute by 1...so even if you take 4 points of Magic at chargen, you still have a Maximum of 6, so no need to Initiate 'til you cap that out.
But after you have 6 Magic, you first need to Initiate THEN you can buy an additional point of Magic. So there's two steps...you don't auto-get the point of Magic just for Initiating, you need to purchase it seperately.
At least this is my understanding of it.
But after you have 6 Magic, you first need to Initiate THEN you can buy an additional point of Magic. So there's two steps...you don't auto-get the point of Magic just for Initiating, you need to purchase it seperately.
At least this is my understanding of it.
Let me grab the text here...
| QUOTE (Shadowrun - 4th Edition Rulebook @ page 189, "INITIATE POWERS") |
Increased Magic An initiate's natural maximum for the Magic attribute is 6 + her grade of initiation. She will still have to pay normally to increase her Magic attribute. |
Oh, to answer your other question that I initially missed...the text states you can't have a higher Initiate grade than your Magic attribute. What this means is, at 6 Magic...you can't be higher than a 6th-grade Initiate.
But since at 6th-grade, your Magic attribute maximum is 12 (6 [Magic base maximum] + 6 [Initiate grade]), you just need to buy more points in your attribute before you continue to Initiate. That's all.
Oh, and if I completely missed what you were asking and you were only asking if you could initiate during character creation, then buy up your improved Magic stat, no you can't.
But since at 6th-grade, your Magic attribute maximum is 12 (6 [Magic base maximum] + 6 [Initiate grade]), you just need to buy more points in your attribute before you continue to Initiate. That's all.
Oh, and if I completely missed what you were asking and you were only asking if you could initiate during character creation, then buy up your improved Magic stat, no you can't.
| QUOTE (Shadowrun - 4th Edition Rulebook @ page 85, "MAGICAL RESOURCES") |
Note that Awakened characters can only Initiate during gameplay, not during character creation. |
Dragoonkin, you completely missed the question 
.
Dentris asked regarding knacks (a quality from Street Magic, iirc).
.Dentris asked regarding knacks (a quality from Street Magic, iirc).
Knacks definitively need an errata, concerning magic increase after Initation and the compatibility with the Magic Resistance Quality.
| QUOTE (Butterblume) |
| Dragoonkin, you completely missed the question . Dentris asked regarding knacks (a quality from Street Magic, iirc). |
Bloody 'ell. Let me read that up, since I'm an idiot. (At least I provided a somewhat-guide to Initiation for SOMEONE. *sighs*)
Says you can Initiate, but you can't increase your Magic attribute with Karma. So...no, you can't raise your Magic after Initiating, since you don't get the Magic point for Initiating (as stated above in one of my completely irrelevant posts), and you're not allowed to spend Karma to gain it anyway.
| QUOTE (Dentris) |
| My question is: is it possible to raise magic by 1 after initiating? |
Well, let's take a glance at the current rules.
| QUOTE |
When a character takes this quality, he gains a Magic attribute of 1 that may not be increased at character creation or raised with Karma. |
| QUOTE |
Increased Magic An initiate’s natural maximum for the Magic attribute is 6 + her grade of initiation. She will still have to pay normally to increase her Magic attribute. |
As it stands right now, it looks like practically speaking, it is not possible to raise the magic attribute - A 'Knack' character who has initiated, will have a total theoretical possible magic attribute of 7. However, the rules state that the magic attribute is not automatically raised, and must be payed for normally, which implies karma.
Since the Knack quality states that the magic attribute may not be raised with karma, that means that the only way a character with the Knack attribute can raise his magic attribute is after character generation, without using karma - Since I'm fairly certain that currently there are no ways to raise the magic attribute without karma, that means a Knack Character is up shits creek if he wants more than 1 point in his Magic attribute.
If you want to develop magical powers as you go, you're better off just springing for the Magician quality, and spending post of your Build Points on things beside magic. Effectively you can mimic the Knack ability in this manner, without having to worry about the matter of being stuck with an eternal 1 in Magic.
| QUOTE |
| Since the Knack quality states that the magic attribute may not be raised with karma, that means that the only way a character with the Knack attribute can raise his magic attribute is after character generation, without using karma - Since I'm fairly certain that currently there are no ways to raise the magic attribute without karma, |
Essence Drain.
-Frank
| QUOTE |
| Essence Drain. |
Good Call. Isn't that a temporary boost, though?
12 hours.
hmm. looking at the astral sight one.. it does allow initiation... but the implication AFAIK is that you cannot raise magic above one, ever, and getting any cyber/bio at all destroys this. BP cost isexactly teh same as a magic 1 adept with astral sight... ergo there is no reason to ever take this quality. i have to wonder what the writer was thinking.
the knack thing... a lil cheaper than a mage, but much more hosed. i could see it as usefull for a few theme characters, but not for a serious shadowrunner. no augmentation or you lose what little ability you have... could be an interesting npc though, maybe a talismonger.
i suspect that knack and astral sight are simple low-level options to keep latent awakening in check. If viewed from the point of 'sam with 1 essence left takes latent so he can be more uber', then its a good way to prevent munchkinism.
the knack thing... a lil cheaper than a mage, but much more hosed. i could see it as usefull for a few theme characters, but not for a serious shadowrunner. no augmentation or you lose what little ability you have... could be an interesting npc though, maybe a talismonger.
i suspect that knack and astral sight are simple low-level options to keep latent awakening in check. If viewed from the point of 'sam with 1 essence left takes latent so he can be more uber', then its a good way to prevent munchkinism.
| QUOTE (Teulisch) |
| hmm. looking at the astral sight one.. it does allow initiation... but the implication AFAIK is that you cannot raise magic above one, ever, and getting any cyber/bio at all destroys this. BP cost isexactly teh same as a magic 1 adept with astral sight... ergo there is no reason to ever take this quality. i have to wonder what the writer was thinking. |
That they made being a magician way too cheap. If it was a more like 50+ point thing you could do some interesting stuff by having partial magician, but not at 15. At least in 4th the mage has to pay for the magic attribute. The one advantage of 1st editions priority system was that choosing mage really limited what else you could do. Forcing someone to spend a measly 2.5% (or less if it's a 500 point game) of their starting points on Magician just doesn't have that impact.
Like you said, it is balanced by the fact you have to pay for your magic attribute. A magician with a Magic attribute of 1 is really limited.
| QUOTE (Dentris) |
| Like you said, it is balanced by the fact you have to pay for your magic attribute. A magician with a Magic attribute of 1 is really limited. |
At character creation. If you spend an extra point on magic and spend a point of essence on Synaptic booster 2 you have signficant growth potential and still can fight effectively. If your only going to play a few times (or a few dozen times) it isn't so important, but long term, with skills capped at 6, it gives you options. And it gives you access to countermagic, which is based on your skill, not your magic.
Well, yeah, and those skills are why being a magician isn't too cheap - the total cost of being a magician isn't 15 points, it's 15 + increases in Magic + magical skills so that you can actually do anything with that magician attribute. And those points aren't available for Edge, nonmagical skills, money, cyber that doesn't cost you extra BP necessary to offset Magic loss, etc.
| QUOTE (Teulisch) |
| BP cost isexactly teh same as a magic 1 adept with astral sight... ergo there is no reason to ever take this quality. |
The SR4 books does make it clear that a GM should keep an eye on that sort of behaviour.
I would be sorely tempted to say to a character built like that, halfway through a campaign, "Sorry, you thought you were a phys ad? Naah, mate, you're just a knack."
Instead I would just not allow that character, and tell them to rebuild properly, or they will start the game with the "GM hates you" flaw.
On paper, how much Noteriety would that char get from that flaw. 
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