With it being far easier for a hacker to break the copy protection on a programme than it is for them to write their own software, why isn't there a shadowsea equivalent of Kazaa?

I would like some oppinions before I stick my oar in, but anybody else have a clue?

Because a character could hop on and download level 6 of each program out there for free. I think it's more of a game ballance issue than realism.

If you want underground secret matrix trading stations in your game then by all means throw them in.

Yes and no: if you go and crack a program already made, it may be infinitely faster than making such a program, but there's no guarantee you have the skill to do it (if it was secured by a top notch person). Cheap programs probably aren't a hassle.

Now, even though it's faster, it doesn't make it better. If you go and crack something, and the original creator finds it like that, they will probably recognize their own work in some fashion, and then potentially know you did it or at least downloaded it. Worse still, a mean programmer may very well make his program with a special style of 'payback' if you do break it and make copies.

No one said you couldn't bury a IC into a program, did they? Or a hidden objective on a agent that activates when the code is cracked.


:Optional objective: Locate operator. Neutralize operator. Acquire information from Operator in regards to programming.

if_original_crack: Terminate operator and delete self IF password(rosebud) not supplied.
ifnot_original_crack: Warn user of violation, imbed data fragment 2355254 into memory and delete self.
if_fragment:2355254_found: terminate operator and delete self.
:End Program

Or something nasty like that.

I'm fairly sure we don't need this turning into a code writing thread

But we get what you're saying.

What? I can't have fun with some small scale examples? Besides, in the Matrix it's not codes, it's icons!

Plus, why give it away when you can sell it?

Otherwise you could be giving your competitors... at least socially speaking... access to all the tools you have for no return. Especially true with combat software, no hacker would want everyone running around with rating 6 black hammer and armour.

Also, given that the internet has been rebuilt about two times (three, if you count the idea of Internet2's eventual rise and fall), once completely from the ground up? Peer to Peer stuff might be nigh-impossible on a widespread basis. Given corporate presence, it might have even been designed from the ground up to be unfriendly to services like Kazaa and Bittorrent.

Corporate influence aside, consider that the internet is not a very friendly place in this period of time. Considering that it might be possible to get malware on your system from just walking around in the mall? Imagine what kind of gunk could get on your system when intentionally trying to do something illegal. All you need are a couple of news reports about how some kid died while trying to rip the newest Karl Kombatmage off some filesharing site. It doesn't matter if the story is true or not. Enough of those, and you'll get a nice bit of reluctance to use the computer for anything nefarious.

Plus, game balance.

Look at Neuromancer.

`There,' said the Flatline, `the blue one. Make it out? That's an entry code for Bell Europa. Fresh, too. Bell'll get in here soon and read the whole damn board, change any codes they find posted. Kids'll steal the new ones tomorrow.'


So, in my eyes, if a character is willing to spend time, perhaps some forumla of the time it would take to program it to show how it mgiht take longer or quicker to find it and get it downloaded. Perhaps use the search rules and then a success test based on time for downloading? But you don't want to make it easier than programming it overall for each of these options. And when code is freely available, perhaps it doesn't function as its rating is. Maybe give it a -1 effective rating if run as stock code or something? Maybe it's just an exploit that works on older systems for the script kiddies to play with?

The World Recording Industry Army (WRIA) will fucking send ninjas to your house if they can back trace your daughter downloading proprietary songs from childrens trid shows. None of this candy-assed fining little girls $10,000 US, that's old thinking. And it's bad publicity. If you just never hear from those little girls ever again it's all so much cleaner.

-Frank

Well, what happened the first time some stealthed runner (or more likely, some stupid fucking script kiddie) hides behind someone else's IP, and some kid whose too young to operate their home terminal alone gets disappeared?

Especially if it's a corp brat. I smell shadowrunnery reprisal action.

the other problem, as has been mentioned, is trust.

do you really trust some random person you've never met to not put some kind of crazy exploit into the program? do you really want to risk finding out there's IC on your own commlink that took your biometric data, sent all your money to some bank account, stole your SIN, and is currently uploading psychotropic persona-fix BTLs into your sim module and activating it?

Can you imagine Shadowrun with this whole Net Neutrality issue. Each corporation having to pay the various Matrix Service Providers a fee or connecting to their site from your connection is slow and buggy or may not even exist in your version of the net. ;P

i imagine the ISPs would cooperate very quickly. in fact, i imagine the ISPs would largely be owned by the megacorps in the first place, and it would be the little guys (as usual) who get screwed.

assuming, that is, that there are ISPs in SR4... which it doesn't really look like there are, as such (it's more of a public service than it is private).

Actually, it's a private service, for the most part. Most legit folks pay for (or are provided by their employers - meaning they pay for it in other ways) Matrix Service Providers (MSPs). There are also, natch, public access sites (libraries, street corner kiosks, etc), but they're generally pretty limited and still require a SIN to access - so you're paying for it with your tax dollars. With the wireless matrix, it's more akin to ubiquitous public hotspots, but unless you have a service account with someone or use your limited access as a Citizen, you won't be getting anything but spam... and questions about how someone without a SIN (read: someone who legally can't have a job, and thus, income) has a commlink.

Shadowrunners, being the degenerate SINless low-lifes that they are, steal their matrix service. That's one reason why they have all those utilities. Legitimate Matrix consumers have account privs that let them do basic things like finding and running content. For the average legitimate Matrix user, "Common use" programs are more or less moneymaking scams, since they already have access to those functions necessary for using the Matrix at all (albeit, filtered according to the whims of their MSP) as part of their service.

People without SINs have commlinks much like people today have Pay-as-you-Go phones. No contract, pay per use (part of your lifestyle costs), boxes that can be used by anyone - once activated. Which makes it great for smacking up some ganger and stealing their commlink.. it's basically an unregistered phone (or registered under a fake name), so it's great to use if you're in a bind.

Accessing the matrix is free in 2070 for Joe Average.
And if you don't want tracking-ads-sponsored email and voice boxes or domain redirection, online storage, etc. - you pay for those services.

Piracy will feature the same checks and balances it does today - mined releases get nuked pretty quickly (especially considering ratings...) and utilities not enough people care about won't even be released.
There is no real reason to assume that the open-source scene will have perished, too, as collaboration is so much easier on the new matrix.

Does that really matter for in-game reasons?
Not much.

If your runners are lazy, the'll pay for their gun/program - if not, the'll steal it.
It's not like they have any moral or professional restrictions towards that...

I'd say the little stuff is probably traded Peer to Peer. Like obsessed band fanboy hackers distributing music or movies.

But No Hacker worth their wetware is going to use elite programs distributed for free. Maybe a pirate copy of MDword word processor but no heav stuff.... If they aren't paranoid about something like that then they'll be dead soon.

Well of course you can trust a Hacker House because they charge, and also because if they screwd over their users they'd be out of business.

Black Hammer is illegal as shit. It's used to assault people via the Matrix. If you're the average citizen, it can knock you senseless and maybe overflow it's way into some intercranial bleeding before you get dumped from the Matrix, and then the dumpshock gets laid on top of that. If you're a security decker or a LEO (one of those folks who's got a legal reason to run hot sim) it can kill you straight up.

Distributing Black Hammer via P2P is a pretty good way to get your deck burned out, your forebrain fried, or a SWAT team roping down onto your roof. It's the same if you're passing out any of the restricted programs, really... all the major security companies and Uncle Fed have a vested interest in programs like Exploit, BH, and all those other illegal goodies that are the real hacker's lifeblood being tracked down and suppressed. If they can't trace the connection back to your deck, they'll just fry whatever you're routing it through. After a while, nobody will do it anymore, because it's just too expensive.

Imagine if, rather than sueing you, the RIAA could just beat your forebrain in with a claw hammer. That is why file sharing of illegal programs does not happen.

There's a slight difference between sitting there freely distributing the data to whoever (including the cops) asks to download it, and covering your trail as much as possible while you infiltrate a site and hack their cameras. One says "Hey, look here, I have a copy of Exploit, a highly illegal program used by hackers to break into secured locations. Does anyone want it?" The other says "Hey, cameras... do this."

We are talking about runner ran P2P networks, right? Why wouldn't a hacker who steals a brand new kick-ass program from NeoNET seed his older, but still kick-ass, program on the secure network he is part of to help out his fellow runners? Oh, right, that wouldn't make sense because no runner would be that nice. I think that common programs with a few bugs in them might be seeded throughout the normal P2P networks at ratings 1-4, maybe 5 if your lucky. Hacking programs maybe only through those deep hidden P2P networks that require membership fees or recommendations to get into. It just seems like one way or another, anything that is connected to the Matrix can be found with enough searching. I figure that if my hacker wants to spend most of his free time hunting down hacking programs on a P2P network, why not reward him. Just another way of helping players enjoy their characters.

I'm not saying they'll find a rating 6 Black Hammer with super optimized options, but they might find a framework they can use to clean up the code and make their own version. It just doesn't make sense that because someone wants to help their character out that GMs have to hold them down and make it seem like hacker run P2P only have the exact same shit as every other P2P network.

I'm not saying all hackers or every runner hacker would disseminate their programs to the world. Just that in a hacker ran P2P network, you would probably find hacker programs because it makes sense. Those might be seeded by a corp goon and have horrible bugs but hey, it's there. I just think that a hacker ran P2P network would be better than a common person P2P network and have a wider selection of programs, suites and such to peruse. Of course, in order to get into that network you have to be vouched for or hack your way in but that just represents the legwork to actually find and use the network.

Well, a lot of oppinions have no been voiced so here are my two bits...

Hacking programmes are by their nature illegal, there is no legitimate megacorp who would intentionally build a hacking programme that is not wired to tell the boss when joe hacker is trying to break into joe's pizza and redirect an order, if joe's pizza is a wholly owned subsidiary of the corp.

Open scource software has always been out there, as there are hackers even today basically programme just to show off how good a programme they can write.

In a world of psychotropic IC, hackers who take the mickey by putting exploits into freely disseminated progs tend to go home with their neurones rewired so they can only get hard to porcupines or something. Specially in a community as hard as shadowsea.

I don't see why Sadowsea would not have an open scource software section with various hackers working on it 24/7 just to get their name on the "This prog was made by" list. Including some bugger who just sits there doing the equivalent of a minor adjustment and rehash every few seconds just to keep corp spies from tracking its dissemination. This should be the best way of getting the best software for your box.

The startup cost of software, I believe, is effectively the bribery and or work investment in getting permission to download the software, or finding a mate to give it to you.

While there may be hackers who build hack progs for money, I don't see why they should be any more or less trusted than a shadowsea ran group project. Especially as you have to be suspicious of any anti crack software they added to the prog you bought.

With the sharing of legal software/sounds etc, I imagine that with the 2070 twice rebuilt matrix the problem is that legitimate software will be wired to more or less be constantly connected and telling the software designer's corp your marketing info / software version / liscence etc. Eg if you bought a virtual poster of some band or other, even running it in edit will, in my eyes, result in the edit prog automatically asking the copyright holder if that is ok before unlocking 'edit proteciton' on the image.

Therefore I guess runners would also be using less commercial versions of these progs that do not have that kind of baggage in them. Again open source would be the only place to be able to get trusted software for this kind of applicaiton.

I feel that there is a problem with the rules as they stand in that they make cracking a programme's copy protection far too easy and consequence free considering the lengths that megacorps go to protect their software rights, while simultaneously making programming far too difficult, when in the icon driven modern matrix, building a video file player/editer without spyware from the ground up should be almost as easy as getting the DRM crap out of a "legitimate" prog.

What do you think?

hmm, data search, with the rating of the program squared as a target?

then slap on some mods if your after a version thats not infected with some tracer or trojan, the wrong one (badly labeld stuff is a pain in the ass), and maybe how traceable you want to be while getting it...

timeframe pr test: 1 day, 1 week, 1 month?

The simplest answer to "Do P2P networks exist in SR" is "does your GM want you having free software?" If he does, the networks exist. If he doesn't, they don't (for any of the reasons given here, or any the GM thinks works better).

I personally would be extremely careful about plugging something stolen into anything that has access to my brain. I'd probably be so paranoid that I wouldn't trust my scanner programs to ferret out the dangerous ones and just not do it.

hmm, or maybe the mods should be to the timeframe as your avoiding a lot of the stuff thats out there, trying to sort the gold from the gravel.

ie, if your just going to download a rating one sniffer or something and dont care about trojans or similar, your test time is maybe 1 hour pr roll. basicly you should have found it and downloaded it within the hour.

but ones you start to dodge trojans, sorting out wrongly labeld files, and try to stay as unnoticed as you can, the time to locate said software skyrockets. and if your then looking for a rating 6 software your looking at a treshold of 36, with a time pr test of maybe 1 month.

even with high skills and good p2p software, it will most likely take you several months to find that software your looking for. quicker to just call that fixer you know and get it arranged.

McMurray's got my reservations with using p2p software right on the nose.

I'd be incredibly wary of plugging a program into my brain. Heck, as is, I'm a bit overzealous when it comes to scanning. When you introduce the concept of accidentally downloading a personafix or a straight up black hammer right into your brain? I'ma be very careful with what I download. Even if it'd be from a legitimate site.

Of course, I can't say that I'd be very sensible about things. I'd be running all of that scanware while in hot sim, because I am an incredibly impatient person and I like the idea of cranked up stimulus, as I am a very lonely internet person.

so you would be running a high rating agent running a high rating analyze in the background at all times?

I would. And I still wouldn't plug anything into my brain that didn't come through appropriate channels.

I would. Only after I made someone else plug it in, first.