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emo samurai
I was thinking of what players would do as side jobs during downtime. How would an assassin make money on his own to match the hacker and the enchanting magician?
Konsaki
Tournaments that befit your current skills. Payouts if you do great on your skill rolls.
Thanee
Well, you didn't get all the bio on your fake SIN for nothing...

Bye
Thanee
emo samurai
Huh
Thanee
?
knasser

I assume he means that one avenue for creating fake SINs is getting hold of someone else's biometric data - hands, eyes, that sort of thing.

Of course he could just mean identity theft the more direct way. "After little Peter's parents were killed in that freakishly suspicious accident, the nice people from that charity organisation came to look after him and took him away. So sad he didn't have any other close family."

Meanwhile, "little Peter" is running some interesting payments through his accounts and there was that odd purchase of a AK-97 Assault Rifle.
Glayvin34
As the Hacker I've been looking for more "paydata". Seems the shadowtalkers have it coming out their asses, but my character couldn't blackmail a kindergartner.
Last run we extracted some guy from a Bioware firm, and we thought to steal a bunch of deltaware and associated specs on our way out. We got a little extra cash for the specs from Mr. J, and our GM asked us if we had any method of storing the deltaware until we could sell it (you have to roll the same availability to sell as to buy). That didn't work out as well.
Most of us come up with strange little personal runs to do on our downtime. Our cram-addicted Mage flipped a few (fluid?) ounces of cram for extra nuyen. The Troll gunbunny killed some guys and had me (the Hacker) crack their SINs and steal their money. The GM gave us 1000 nuyen for that.
All of our "downtime" runs have been a single combat session perhaps with a single role-playing scene. The players typically get around 1000 nuyen each or a specific item that they were trying to get.
emo samurai
All they had was 1000 nuyen? Your GM's cheap as hell.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (emo samurai)
All they had was 1000 nuyen? Your GM's cheap as hell.

Don't get me started.
emo samurai
You should run for me. 20000 nuyen.gif on the first run.

I mean, seriously, you showed a deep understanding of the game world, and he rewards you with drek. If you stole a credit card # for 1/4th the effort in RL, you could buy a car.
Glayvin34
Yeah, I'm the reigning rules Nazi, so he listens to me and I might try to finagle some runs with better payoffs. To his credit, it's not like the book gives much in the way of compensation guidelines. I've seen more than a few threads on the boards trying to figure out how much a team should be paid.
Eugene
QUOTE (emo samurai)
I was thinking of what players would do as side jobs during downtime. How would an assassin make money on his own to match the hacker and the enchanting magician?

Gun guys and sammies could do some bodyguard or security work - just set the pay level and assume nothing much happens; or work it into an adventure if you want something interesting to happen (or meet with the GM early to play it out or do it through email between sessions, etc.)
Thanee
QUOTE (emo samurai @ Sep 18 2006, 10:32 PM)
Huh
Thanee
?


Why, you could just have a fairly 'normal' job (one that allows for some flexible work hours; freelancing is always good for that)... running doesn't take that much time of the month usually, so there's plenty of downtime left. wink.gif

For example, my (PnP) character has a job as security in a night club, whose owner is one of her best connections (best in terms of loyalty rating). This way her lifestyle costs are covered and running gives 'extra income'.

With 'bio' I meant the data about the person's life, that is put on the fake SIN...

Bye
Thanee
eidolon
Well, to answer the post title question, I usually just run them.

If, for example, the hacker wants to take a job on during downtime, I'll come up with a little data steal or the like, and start running that.

Then, I'll try to come up with stuff for the other team members to be doing. Generally, once one side-job gets started, the other players will want to be doing something, whether its story development or a money-making side job.

As any GM knows, the best way to come up with stuff to run is to listen to, or flat out ask, the players. "Well, you know you've got three days before that next run, but you're already done with the planning, so is there anything your characters would want to do in the meantime?"

Then, all that's left to do is track "time" so that they don't miss the run. (Unless, of course, they miss it through their own actions, which is just more story development.)

Mmm. I need to start running again, and soon. I'm suffering withdrawal.
JackRipper
As mentioned above, every character sort of falls into a niche as far as their role. Rigger can be a cab driver, sammie body guard or club security, etc. As a long time player of (now called) Hackers I've never had an out of work bit-cruncher. Yes, mostly my own self started side jobs but hey, to through a little reality into our fantasy game. Someone who sits around waiting for the next 'big score' shadowrun probly lives in a rat infested dump, drinking cheap soy-beer in a stained wife beater. Holy shit, my next PC concept lol.

As a fellow player and as a GM I find that what the PC does between jobs helps broaden the character. Sitting around waiting can mark you as lazy, while sitting around drinking all day in a one room rathole, checking messages or calling your fixer from the bar's pay-comm makes you seem a bit of a burnout or just bad luck has hit. Yet another perspective is the guy who blows his ;big score' in Vegas or a resort. I can go on a tirade (wait I have already) but, your down time really reflects what you come off as, maybe not on a oneshot game but, a campaign it shows.
krayola red
You can always take a side job as a cop. wink.gif
Konsaki
Bounty hunter. cool.gif cyber.gif
Slithery D
Just do a Data Search for 'esc-- Oh. Sidejobs.
Wiseman
Well, side jobs can help develop character, but they're criminal shadowrunners for a reason. The big payoff.

If they wanted to work as a wage slave for the corp or some other mundane side job, they'd probably wouldn't be runners.

Some SINs might require a little side work to keep up the front at least and anyone can buy/sell whatever in downtime. But when you say sidejobs I tend to think of non-risky mundane money making tasks, and I don't really want to roleplay Harold the janitors nightly mop up.

If you mean sidejobs like drug deals, data steals, a little con or fraud..well I think those are what lead to and comprise runs. I mean even something simple as slinging a bag of deepweed could get messy and you might want backup.

Say the edgy hougan punk you were dealing it to tried giving you a manaball for payment, until you ungently reminded him why he shouldn't point at people. And it just so happens that he has an overly protective mother.

When the game is on and everyone is at the table the only side-job we think of is the one we have to go back to come monday.
Jaid
QUOTE (Wiseman)
Well, side jobs can help develop character, but they're criminal shadowrunners for a reason. The big payoff.

If they wanted to work as a wage slave for the corp or some other mundane side job, they'd probably wouldn't be runners.

Some SINs might require a little side work to keep up the front at least and anyone can buy/sell whatever in downtime. But when you say sidejobs I tend to think of non-risky mundane money making tasks, and I don't really want to roleplay Harold the janitors nightly mop up.

If you mean sidejobs like drug deals, data steals, a little con or fraud..well I think those are what lead to and comprise runs. I mean even something simple as slinging a bag of deepweed could get messy and you might want backup.

Say the edgy hougan punk you were dealing it to tried giving you a manaball for payment, until you ungently reminded him why he shouldn't point at people. And it just so happens that he has an overly protective mother.

When the game is on and everyone is at the table the only side-job we think of is the one we have to go back to come monday.

i'd be annoyed as hell if my GM turned every attempt to buy or sell something into a quest, personally.

i mean, it's fine every now and then, but unless i live in the barrens and it's the middle of a gang war and i'm in disputed turf, then generally speaking i shouldn't have to wage war just to make some deals. if a player wants their character to be a drug dealer on the side, or matrix overwatch on stuffer shack robberies, or whatever, it should at most be simplified down to a couple of rolls IMO, and a general description of how the run went should be the entirety of the event.

IOW, you don't need a shadowrunning team to sell drugs on the street. if it happens every now and again that something goes wrong and you need your friend's help, that's fine... but in general, it should be in the background, IMO.

and personally, just to keep it generally in the background (rather than being an important mechanical part) i'd probably just have it reduce lifestyle costs or something (or allow higher lifestyles), unless i had enough time to actually organize something for each individual runner.
BookWyrm
Back when I played SR3, my character had a 'day job' as a Contract Courier. I should find my original template, convert/update it to SR4 & post it.
nezumi
QUOTE (emo samurai)
I was thinking of what players would do as side jobs during downtime. How would an assassin make money on his own to match the hacker and the enchanting magician?

The assassin in my character works at the local mcDojo.
Tiger Eyes
I thought downtime was for spending money & karma... We call it 'housekeeping' and just say, "hey, I'm gonna spend all my money on new shoes and can I use some Karma to learn how to scuba dive?"

Sideruns, in our game, are for when we want to earn money or repay favors or meet new contacts and direct our own runs (as opposed to GM planned runs). We roleplay them to the hilt - they are fun and lucrative. Like this weekend's game, when our team was waiting for new orders from our employer. We decided we needed to meet a new fence in our new home town. So we researched and found a fence in our field (artifacts), then we planned a theft of some nice items, then once we had the stuff, we called an old contact for a 'letter of introduction', met the new fence, sold the stuff, and voila! we have a new fence.

This took our entire session... we do this every couple of sessions. But not roleplaying it would have been extremely sad... plus I doubt our GM would have let us earn 780,000 nuyen.gif if we just rolled some dice for downtime activity. wink.gif
Drraagh
The Fencing Rules existed in SR for a way to sell stuff that you got on a run that you don't want. It's where looting the bodies and taking everything that's not nailed down (and some things that are) pays off.

Consider, as an example of the standard sort of Shadowruns I've seen. The lobby scene in the Matrix. People slaughtering guards like they were targets at a shooting range. Now, pick up their guns, perhaps organleg them for any good cyberware or organs if you have a storage system, take their phones, badges, etc and sell them as smaller items. They would be clean since their user is dead, after all. No worrying about it reported stolen.

Now, as for side jobs, people have covered a lot of them, and in a tt group, you could either have runs on non-standard TT days for some of the side jobs, or take a break and run some on the standard days. As for jobs, well, anything that's of your skills. And don't think just the 'class' type, but things for the skills your character has. Perhaps your rigger has been watching CSI and getting into forensics and such; they could hire out as a PI. Or maybe your samurai has been picking up survival skills and such, with a high athletics, he could become a skydiving trainer or mountain climbing instructor in his downtime.

Yes, you could sell drugs, jack cars, roll people for their credsticks and hack them and most of those are good for any character type. And maybe your sammy works as a bodyguard or your decker as a SIN creator. But don't forget about your other skills as an option for adventures if you like RP versus being full time killers and thieves.
Grinder
QUOTE (Konsaki)
Bounty hunter. cool.gif cyber.gif

That's quite frequent in my campaign, also working as "freelancer" for a crime syndicate or do some small-scale DIY-crime like car stealing.
Dranem
Downtime things my runners do:

My bodyguard is a bouncer for a bar, works out at a gym regularly, and does occasionaly contract bodyguard work.

My adept, thanks to a few profitable runs, owns her own martial arts dojo, where she teaches street kids the art of self defence.

My hacker runs a small electronics shop and underground hacker shop. Outside of that he's an avid gamer and spends a lot of time in online games.
Critias
If you're doing jobs and getting paid for them, it's not really "downtime," is it?
emo samurai
No, it's soloing, and that's fine by me.
Schaeffer
Like a lot of people, we usually handle stuff that happens between games via email. It's a mix of in-character and out (of course). Most of it is of a personal nature for the character (like dealings with contacts, loved ones, etc.), and sometimes it even sets up ideas for runs during actual game sessions. Sometimes it's even little fiction pieces written by the player for everyone to read that adds depth to their runner. Also, I might send out several emails from NPC's to various characters. If the player "bites" I continue with the story. Otherwise it gets dropped. Unfortunately for them, sometimes the emails contain clues about other goings on that they eventually wish they hadn't ignored. smile.gif

All in all, good fun when it all works, a drag on the GM when it doesn't.
eidolon
QUOTE (Wiseman)
Well, side jobs can help develop character, but they're criminal shadowrunners for a reason. The big payoff.


Well sure, assuming that in every SR game, you play 2 dimensional characters that Do a Run > Buy Gear > Do a Run > Buy Gear. You don't have to limit characters in SR to being "professional shadowrunners with no lives".

Entire games have been run doing nothing but "side quests", personal jobs, vendettas, etc.

QUOTE (Jaid)
i'd be annoyed as hell if my GM turned every attempt to buy or sell something into a quest, personally.


That's cool. It's just different games, different expectations. None of them are any more right. That said, some thoughts.

QUOTE (Jaid)
if a player wants their character to be a drug dealer on the side, or matrix overwatch on stuffer shack robberies, or whatever, it should at most be simplified down to a couple of rolls IMO, and a general description of how the run went should be the entirety of the event.


And sometimes, it does just boil down to a roll of the dice. That's usually what happens if it's a small thing and the rest of the players just want to gloss through the downtime and get on with the game. In such a case, I'll spend 5-10 minutes working out the character's actions using some simple tests and narration, and we'll move on.

I guess I've been lucky. Most of my players in the past have been more excited about furthering their IC relationships, furthering character development (outside of runs), and stuff like that. Since that's what I enjoy (don't get me wrong, I enjoy the "actual runs" too), it works out.

I can run a game where it's episodic one run after another and we only mention downtime long enough to deduct the month's lifestyle costs, but I prefer to try and run it as though these are real people with real lives, that happen to run the shadows to make a living. Also, it helps that rarely do I have a player/character that is only a shadowrunner because "that's what the game is about". To me, if that's all the motivation they have, it's a boring game.

Now, I'm not saying that I spend 20 minutes playing out the sammy going to buy a carton of milk. But I will play through entire scenes of a character going to see a contact, because then I can develop that character through interaction with the game world. And that's good for the whole game.

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes)
<snip> We call it 'housekeeping' <snip>

Sideruns, in our game, <snip>

This took our entire session... we do this every couple of sessions. But not roleplaying it would have been extremely sad... plus I doubt our GM would have let us earn 780,000 nuyen.gif if we just rolled some dice for downtime activity.


That's just a difference in terminology. We fell into using "downtime" to encompass just about anything except "main runs" (main runs, in our games, are the "big ones" that are planned out and stuff). We did call some stuff side-runs, but it really depended on who was talking. Actually, come to think of it "character development" was used a lot. It became our norm to split our sessions (anywhere from 8 to 15 hours) about half and half between "downtime/character development" and "actual runs".

As to your story, that's awesome. That's the type of thing I throw in between "main runs".

QUOTE (Drraagh)
The Fencing Rules existed in SR for a way to sell stuff that you got on a run that you don't want. It's where looting the bodies and taking everything that's not nailed down (and some things that are) pays off.


That's true. But it doesn't mean you have to skip out on hours of great roleplaying just because you can technically sit there and roll some dice. (I know you didn't say that, I'm just making the point.)

Great point of yours on making the most of skills.

QUOTE (Critias)
If you're doing jobs and getting paid for them, it's not really "downtime," is it?


Semantics. smile.gif

QUOTE (Schaeffer)
<snip>


Yup. Good stuff. We had a forum set up for this when I was in HI. I just set up a new forum for my upcoming game/group. It's a great extension of a regular game. (The only problem I've run into is getting people to use it. I was the only forum junkie in the bunch for the most part.)
Wiseman
QUOTE
Well sure, assuming that in every SR game, you play 2 dimensional characters that Do a Run > Buy Gear > Do a Run > Buy Gear. You don't have to limit characters in SR to being "professional shadowrunners with no lives".


Theres far more in character development of a run than just doing the mission and getting paid.

I was making the point that sidejobs as a mundane way of making money hardly need roleplayed out, and if they do than they're part of the game and not "side" anything at all.

I don't have enough time to do many 1 to 1's with players. We all sit down for game and we all play, if the "sidejob" doesn't involve risk or anyone else, its just a dice roll with very little fluff.

This doesn't mean there isn't any character background in the games, or even certain runs tailored to individual PCs.

I'm just not gonna spend 20 mins RP'ing some guy taking delivery orders or driving a cab to make a few extra nuyen than I will track how much gas he used and whether or not he payed the bridge toll.

Games start and end with some descriptive fluff of what happens inbetween, I simply don't have hours to spend on everytime the rigger wants to repaint his GMC bulldog van with the teams new "logo".


QUOTE
Entire games have been run doing nothing but "side quests", personal jobs, vendettas, etc.


I guess with 1 on 1? I can't imagine me spending a whole game to play with each individual player so he can sell drugs with a few dice rolls. The players DO have lives that require some RP inbetween, and SINs may require some work as cover. But I wouldn't make the other four players sit through it every other game.

To me its like asking how long I spend RP'ing toilet breaks (they could meet someone interesting on the kamode). Sure it could be effective for the game, but there are simply much better uses for the time that still develop character and everyone is involved.

If the drug deal is that essential, I'll turn it into a plot, even if only a vague or shadowy one.





Eryk the Red
All this talk makes me think that "day job" would be a good quality, but as a positive quality, rather than negative. It could reduce lifestyle costs, and its value would be based on the amount of the reduction and the degree to which it restricts your activity. Something to think about.

Anyway, I've done sidejobs as one-on-one sessions, but mostly we just mention them in passing. They're background. We assume the character's do things between the big runs. Sometimes it's other jobs. That's usually how we explain a character's absence when someone misses a session. They don't actually get anything for it in most cases. This is because, simply, they didn't really earn it. It's just story. Most of my group's characters actually have other things to do between team jobs, though (which we assume happen every week or 2). The troll tank volunteers as a Big Brother (it eases his conscience). The mage sets up deals with his agent's corporate clients to sell advertising space on his jacket and in his spells (it's a neat take on guerrilla marketing). The rigger is a bartender. The stealth-specialist infiltrator-type person hasn't really found a hobby or other job because she's still settling in to Seattle after being abandoned by her japanese employers. She does legwork to figure out what happened.

All of this stuff is interesting. And if anyone wanted to really roleplay it out, I would do it. But I don't do this stuff during sessions, because we only have a couple hours at a time together, and I don't want to leave everyone else twiddling their thumbs.

I think what's important about all of this stuff, side jobs or hobbies or whatever, is that they at least get mentioned, because they give characters real depth. It makes for good exposition at the beginning of a session.
DireRadiant
Some of the best games I've been a part of have been entirely about what happens during the downtime and side jobs. Such as the "Couch Run" and "The best Christmas Ever!" adventures.
Warmaster Lah
I kind of had a concept with a character with a side/fulltime job that was getting into the Shadows.

Sort of a Face. Using the Flaws/Edges equivalent to

Steady Job
Pirate Family

Ok so basically he is an Ex/Partime Pimp turned Shadawrunner/Face. And well he does get income but then sometimes it is more trouble than it is worth. He has an extended dysfunctional family of dramaqueen/king prostitutes constantly taking up his time and making his life "interesting."

If I get a chance to run him I might give it a go.


eidolon
QUOTE (Wiseman)
I was making the point that sidejobs as a mundane way of making money hardly need roleplayed out, and if they do than they're part of the game and not "side" anything at all.


Again, it's just a matter of the words you use to describe it. As far as what does and doesn't "need" to be played out, I would think that it would be different for every group. Wouldn't you agree?

QUOTE (Wiseman)
Games start and end with some descriptive fluff of what happens inbetween, I simply don't have hours to spend on everytime the rigger wants to repaint his GMC bulldog van with the teams new "logo".


Of course you don't spend hours doing that. But what's a few minutes of in character conversation where he's describing the new logo to the team, and one of them hates it, so there's this huge argument that leads to them sitting around OOC/and IC planning out and designing a new logo for the van? That's classic stuff right there.

And if it starts, and I as GM just say "hey guys, let's just roll some dice to see who is more convincing, and then you can make a painting roll and we'll move on", then I'm doing a piss poor job of running what the players want at that moment.

QUOTE (Wiseman)
I guess with 1 on 1? I can't imagine me spending a whole game to play with each individual player so he can sell drugs with a few dice rolls. The players DO have lives that require some RP inbetween, and SINs may require some work as cover. But I wouldn't make the other four players sit through it every other game.


Nope. I rarely run full blown 1 on 1 sessions. Generally, if one character starts following up on something, another character will want to go help. Or the character goes off and does his thing, and I start running that. Then, while I'm doing that, at an opportune moment, I'll ask each player in turn what their character is doing or wants to do, and I'll just start rotating through spending 5-10 minutes on what each character is doing. That's if they want to, of course. If not, then sure, I'll reduce the level of involvement for the "side" stuff, maybe to die rolls, or just to some cooperative narration. Sometimes I end up running two groups of characters as they do stuff, or I'll end up running five different "downtimes". It's all good. I enjoy it.

QUOTE (Wiseman)
To me its like asking how long I spend RP'ing toilet breaks (they could meet someone interesting on the kamode).


Ah, hyperbole. Nobody is saying that they do things as mundane as this. That's not to say nobody does, merely that it's a poor way to make your point in this discussion.

QUOTE (Eryk the Red)
All of this stuff is interesting. And if anyone wanted to really roleplay it out, I would do it. But I don't do this stuff during sessions, because we only have a couple hours at a time together, and I don't want to leave everyone else twiddling their thumbs.


Ah, now there's an interesting point. I feel comfortable running the way that I've described because our sessions tended to be "we show up at 10am and play until 2am". Obviously, if I didn't have that kind of time to work with, it would affect how I ran my game. I'd stick more to "running" than "I need to make sure that I go get my camera pen fixed" (yeah, that actually came up in game; the reason it got played out rather than glossed over is because the character decided that he'd just take it to a regular electronics store to have...illegal work done. biggrin.gif).

Jaid
I should clarify...

i wasn't saying it should never happen that you RP downtime stuff. but if your regular job is a bouncer or whatever, i don't really see the need to make them roleplay it out as anything more than maybe a couple of minutes. the couple of dice rolls thing is more to indicate that it shouldn't be taking a long time or a lot of checks to get anything done, but rather the entire process should be simplified as much as possible.

and certainly, if you have as much time as some people have, then i suppose i could see spending a bunch more time on the mundane stuff... but honestly, IMO, if it's something you're gonna be doing alone, it shouldn't be done during the time where everyone is there, because in my experience, that time has been much harder to plan and set up, and tends to be much to short to spend on non-group stuff.

certainly, if you want to do sessions individually by e-mail, chat, phone, or whatever, that's fine... makes perfect sense. i'm just saying there's no need to spend a lot of time roleplaying being a bouncer for most situations. sometimes you might tie the dayjob in as being how the runners hear about a job opportunity or something i suppose though.

but yeah, just to clarify... my main objection is that if the entire group is there, as much of the time as possible should be spent as a group, not with one person going off to be a bodyguard, or personal trainer, or whatever. it's not fun to be unable to do anything but sit around and wait, is basically my point.
eidolon
Jaid

You've taken the overall idea that we're discussing, and reduced it to "being a bouncer", as if the original question was "how much time should I spend making the players roleplay their day job flaw?"

That's not the only type of situation we're talking about, but you have been responding as if it were.

QUOTE (Jaid)
but yeah, just to clarify... my main objection is that if the entire group is there, as much of the time as possible should be spent as a group,


We were discussing that earlier in the thread. If you don't have the time to spend doing anything outside of "going on the run and getting paid", then sure, it would be wasteful to try and cram in a bunch of stuff that could easily be summed up. But not all of us are playing on the same schedule, and not all of us think that being "on the run" is the only good part of Shadowrun. The only part worth spending time on.

QUOTE (Jaid)
not with one person going off to be a bodyguard, or personal trainer


Again, you're trying to reduce the issue as a whole to one small little possible instance or situation.

QUOTE (Jaid)
it's not fun to be unable to do anything but sit around and wait, is basically my point.


So you're unable to enjoy the overall session unless you're directly involved with every instant of play? It's not as though we're talking about having five people come over so that one can roleplay a one on one while the others sit and watch. We're talking about a GM jumping from character to character, in the same way that you have to when playing anyway, only that each character is doing something different.
Mistwalker
I have had a team that were a Doc Wagon HTR team, Osprey as vehicle. They ran the shadows a week, did their week as Doc Wagon employees, etc... That happened off one of the published runs, forget which right at the moment, where the team goes undercover as Doc Wagon employees. My players loved it, so kept it up.

Another game, one player was a PI, another a botanist, another worked at the zoo, and of course, the bouncer at the hot club.

Some times they were glossed over, other times a lot of RP over downtime activities. Some where contact related (like the time they helped rebuilt part of the orphanage, cause the priest that ran the place was a good contact).
Jaid
QUOTE (eidolon @ Sep 19 2006, 07:41 PM)
Jaid

You've taken the overall idea that we're discussing, and reduced it to "being a bouncer", as if the original question was "how much time should I spend making the players roleplay their day job flaw?"

That's not the only type of situation we're talking about, but you have been responding as if it were.

QUOTE (Jaid)
but yeah, just to clarify... my main objection is that if the entire group is there, as much of the time as possible should be spent as a group,


We were discussing that earlier in the thread. If you don't have the time to spend doing anything outside of "going on the run and getting paid", then sure, it would be wasteful to try and cram in a bunch of stuff that could easily be summed up. But not all of us are playing on the same schedule, and not all of us think that being "on the run" is the only good part of Shadowrun. The only part worth spending time on.

QUOTE (Jaid)
not with one person going off to be a bodyguard, or personal trainer


Again, you're trying to reduce the issue as a whole to one small little possible instance or situation.

QUOTE (Jaid)
it's not fun to be unable to do anything but sit around and wait, is basically my point.


So you're unable to enjoy the overall session unless you're directly involved with every instant of play? It's not as though we're talking about having five people come over so that one can roleplay a one on one while the others sit and watch. We're talking about a GM jumping from character to character, in the same way that you have to when playing anyway, only that each character is doing something different.

no, i've taken the time to clarify the one specific part of my earlier post that, looking back on it, made it look as if i was objecting to the whole concept of even having or roleplaying stuff outside of running. you can tell it's a clarification on the earlier post because i started off with "just to clarify" as you so kindly quoted.

as far as that second point you quoted, i believe i specifically indicated that some people may have the time to do individual stuff, and if you do that's fine. my point is that often, people don't have the time for it, and in that situation is where my viewpoint is coming from... the situation of not having as much time as you might like, that is.

as for the rest, thank you so much for pulling my statements out of context. maybe you should look at the parts of my post where i indicated that i felt it was fine to spend time on it, but since group time is (for most people i've ever heard of) more limited than individual time (that is, with only 2 people you have a much better chance of having available time than you do for 5 different people each having available time)

and as to your last point, i don't believe i ever said that. what i said, is that if you have the group there, everyone should be involved. if the individual RP takes up only a few minutes each, then no problem. if it takes half an hour each, and 2 hours later everyone is done, but there's no time for doing anything as a group, that's where i'm saying the problem is. which you would probably notice if you took the time to read everything in context, rather than reading what i said and filtering out everything that doesn't make it look like i think the entire concept is a bad idea.
eidolon
I didn't quote to indicate your meaning. I quoted to indicate what I was responding to.

QUOTE (Jaide)
if it takes half an hour each, and 2 hours later everyone is done, but there's no time for doing anything as a group, that's where i'm saying the problem is.


That depends on the group as well. If all of the players enjoyed their half hour, and are enjoying the story, then what, exactly, would the problem be? Also, and this is humorous considering that you're claiming that I'm filtering your points, when did anyone say that you would focus solely on one character for extended periods of time (half an hour) without giving any time to the others?

That's all I'm getting at. You're making declarations yourself, so that you can make arguments against them. (In essence: "To run things that don't involve the whole group, you have to focus on one character to the detriment and exclusion of the others. Thus, running things that don't involve all the characters is a waste of time and bores the other players. Therefore, running things that don't involve all characters is bad." Even assuming that the first two are true, you're only arguing against yourself.)

Bring up the point all you want, but don't try to attribute it to someone else and then argue about it.
Jaid
if you're still doing things as a group, or with everyone, then obviously you aren't doing individual play, and you obviously don't have the situation i'm talking about.

and if three people sit around for an hour and a half just watching (half hour each, four players and a GM assumed), i think you would agree that is a problem... if you make a point of avoiding that situation, then once again, you clearly do not have the situation i am talking about, which is one where the individual play gets out of hand and goes on for excessive amounts of time, leaving the other players just watching and listening, unable to really get involved.

therefore, i am going to assume that since you feel it is stupid to have so much time where people are not involved in the game as anything other than spectators, i will assume that you actually agree with my point, and just haven't figured out that you're talking about something completely different than what i am talking about.

to pull some previous examples of yours of "sidejobs" that clearly do not involve this situation, the one where a group argues over the new team insignia or whatever, IC and OOC, is not such a problem... because no one is a spectator, and there isn't any individual play. going on a run to steal some artifacts as a team and selling them to a fence is, once again, a team effort. there is clearly no problem. that is simply not the situation i am referring to.

an example where it would be a problem is if, during one session, each person is split off from everyone else and each spends half an hour separate from each other, with no interaction, then that would be a problem. you can't keep everyone involved if they aren't doing something for that long. now certainly, if you make sure to switch to other players fairly quickly (keeping in mind that even a 5 minute segment each is gonna be 15 minutes of spectatorhood) then you would still not have a problem.

in any event, like i said earlier in this post... i think you agree that what i'm talking about is a problem... you just haven't figured out yet what it is i'm talking about.
Dranem
I don't see why - having a session that everyone is enjoying, but not tying everything to the group till later - is such a bad thing Jaid. Now, just cause we're doing on-on-one work, it doesn't mean that the other players are being ignored.

I come across this alot as well while the team is doing legwork. If someone is on a roll, and the others are done, I'll do work with the one, while on the sidelines (say every 5-10 mins), ask the others what they're up to in the mean time.
So while the decker is doing his datasearching, or the sami is spending a half hour cleaning his weapons, each player is somehow involved during the session. Non-team time isn't necessarily a waste of time.

My group only has about 4 hours a week to do stuff, there are entire sessions that are nothing but role-play and no actual game related activity has happened. But they still have had fun (actually I think, having a group of role-play centric players, they have more fun role-playing than they do in combat). I'd like to add that my group is an online live-chat group, each player from another country. A lot of action in the group happends over e-mail, and (as I'm online a lot) in-between sessions. So the once a week we get together is more of a social occasion than anything - which is probably why we spend more time role-playing than actual hardcore game-play.
Jaid
once again, that's not what i'm talking about.

essentially, let me put it this way: it's a problem if the other players decide they're gonna go play cards or video games or whatever while they wait for the current person's turn to end. that particular event will happen at different times in different groups, but whenever the point is that the first person will do that, that's the point at which i'm saying it's a problem.

basically, i'm saying (with my GMs and group at least) too much time spent focusing on one person to the exclusion of others (again, if you're spending time focusing on each person you don't have this problem, you have something else that is not a problem at all, and does not apply)

now, if your GM is making sure everyone is staying involved and has a chance to interract, that's fine. but i've had many a game where a focus on one person has led to dice rolling competitions (and such) out of boredom that have lasted for 10 minutes or longer while we wait for someone's turn to end. and that, to my mind, is a problem, because it gets anyone who was not previously distracted from the game distracted. it pulls you out of the game, and ruins all the work you've done so far to get into the game.

so, once again, if you're talking about a situation where everyone has a chance to do something in game fairly often (like i said, the precise amount of time depends on your group), then you're not talking about the same situation i am. perhaps you have never seen the situation that i am talking about, and if so, i hope you never do see it (because i assure you, it takes away from the fun of everyone). but it can and does happen.
Akimbo
I had a player who wanted nothing more than money. After a run, he would want to go on another solely on the fact that it meant making more and thusly getting more. I told him that during downtime characters conduct other personal obligations and desires. With which he replied that he enjoys running in his spare time. After dealing with this for a few weeks, I applied a great deal of fatigue and stress to his character. And because of that, he lost his character.

My point is that downtime is for non-run stuff. A character is a character is a character. And downtime should be used for personal things. My players' characters like to go to movies, eat out, clubbing, gaming, meditation, reading, visiting the family, etc. No one works 24/7, although some of us (like myself) do work 10/6. biggrin.gif
Skip
I have found that running the downtime at the end of one session and wrapping up at beginning of a session works well. Why? Because people have their Karma and cash and want to spend it. Everyone is nose down in a book anyway, so having a few side conversations tends to work out well. Plus any unresolved issues can be taken care of before the start of the next session. It also allows people to eave early or come late if they are all set and need the time.

At least it has worked for me.
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