I like many of the concepts in SR4 but the whole stat being half my dice really really bugs me.
Anytone out there have rules for doing the wireless decking/rigging stuff under SR3 rules?
Or any other SR4 concepts to run under SR3 rules?
Yes I have tried the search function and didn't find to much so if something is out there I just missed it and would appreciate a point in the right direction.
Please don't start arguing over which is better. I just wan't to know how the new stuff would work under the old rules.
Full Version: SR4 concetps in an SR3 rules system
Rigging by remote with a control deck (vehicle control rig) has always been an option.... I mean, you don't think you're hardwired into a drone under SR2/SR3 rules, do you?
Decking remotely is only possible with a Satellite Uplink, otherwise you need to find a drop to jack in.
Decking remotely is only possible with a Satellite Uplink, otherwise you need to find a drop to jack in.
Hmm,
The only 'real' change would be for signal rating and possible electronic warfare type stuff.
At work right now so no books, but didnt Rigger have roles for jamming signals and such (for SR3)
IF so those should be easy to expand for the 'matric' side of things.
Only real difference (not counting chnage of mechanics) between SR4 and SR3 is the fact you dont need a jack point.. (or rather there are wireless jack points all over the place).
If wireless SR3 is what you want.
Look up the rigger rules for 'Remote Control Decks' and you should be able to mangle them to work for 'remove matric connections'.
From memory they have all the rules for /jamming/intercepting/encrypting/decrypting the signals.
The only 'real' change would be for signal rating and possible electronic warfare type stuff.
At work right now so no books, but didnt Rigger have roles for jamming signals and such (for SR3)
IF so those should be easy to expand for the 'matric' side of things.
Only real difference (not counting chnage of mechanics) between SR4 and SR3 is the fact you dont need a jack point.. (or rather there are wireless jack points all over the place).
If wireless SR3 is what you want.
Look up the rigger rules for 'Remote Control Decks' and you should be able to mangle them to work for 'remove matric connections'.
From memory they have all the rules for /jamming/intercepting/encrypting/decrypting the signals.
...I've eliminated the Magic Loss for Deadly Wounds/Surgery.
I also am bringing in the Wireless Matrix in a limited way (My campaign takes place in Europe where the corp Erika on the forefront of wireless development).
I am doing away with Security Tally (too much dice rolling/number crunching), and going to a simpler "Decker skill vs. System/Decker" mechanic for resolving matrix actions.
I also am bringing in the Wireless Matrix in a limited way (My campaign takes place in Europe where the corp Erika on the forefront of wireless development).
I am doing away with Security Tally (too much dice rolling/number crunching), and going to a simpler "Decker skill vs. System/Decker" mechanic for resolving matrix actions.
There were rules for wireless Matrix access, even in SR3. The Matrix sourcebook has a number of interface devices you can put in your deck that don't require a fiberoptic link. Admittedly, finding the appropriate jackpoint for some of them was a bit tougher than finding a hardline jack, but they were there.
With ubiquitous cell phone usage, the cellular link would be your most likely bet. The biggest difficulty there would be the ease with which you can be tracked down, and a low upper-end transfer rate. But with caution, you can finagle a link from anywhere in the civilized world. Further rules for gaming the cellular network are in Matrix, I believe. Radio links (ala SR4) would probably be do-able, if you had a powerful enough transmitter. They're faster and more difficult to trace than cell links. The bare rules for using it are in Matrix. And since device Flux is, effectively, the same thing as Signal in 4th edition, you should be able to adapt the broadcasting rules from Rigger 3 to do what you want.
With ubiquitous cell phone usage, the cellular link would be your most likely bet. The biggest difficulty there would be the ease with which you can be tracked down, and a low upper-end transfer rate. But with caution, you can finagle a link from anywhere in the civilized world. Further rules for gaming the cellular network are in Matrix, I believe. Radio links (ala SR4) would probably be do-able, if you had a powerful enough transmitter. They're faster and more difficult to trace than cell links. The bare rules for using it are in Matrix. And since device Flux is, effectively, the same thing as Signal in 4th edition, you should be able to adapt the broadcasting rules from Rigger 3 to do what you want.
Firstly, considering you're tossing away a good chunk of SR4 and transporting a few, select concepts instead, this might get better answers in the general Shadowrun forum.
Secondly, considering how few changes there are in SR4, and how many of them are not dependent on the mechanics, I'm really not following with the problem. There are wireless rules in SR3, it'd be trivial to beef them up a few notches to meet the amount of wireless connectivity in SR4. There are tons of wireless rigging rules for SR3 (two different rule systems, in fact), and again, it would be easy just to grab whatever new modifiers and concepts are brought out in SR4 and drop them over. The magic system generation rules still apply. The new pieces of equipment (and corresponding prices) carry over easily (although you'll need to adjust the old SR3 equipment prices... Or not. Just say the SR4 stuff is based off a new, cheaper manufacturing process, hence it's more essence and wallet friendly, and gradually the old gear is being brought over to this revolutionary process.)
You may also want to consider looking into SR3R which, hopefully, is still alive and continuing on. I know they're sticking with the SR3 mechanic, but I believe they're interested in dragging over some of the new ideas from SR4 as well.
Secondly, considering how few changes there are in SR4, and how many of them are not dependent on the mechanics, I'm really not following with the problem. There are wireless rules in SR3, it'd be trivial to beef them up a few notches to meet the amount of wireless connectivity in SR4. There are tons of wireless rigging rules for SR3 (two different rule systems, in fact), and again, it would be easy just to grab whatever new modifiers and concepts are brought out in SR4 and drop them over. The magic system generation rules still apply. The new pieces of equipment (and corresponding prices) carry over easily (although you'll need to adjust the old SR3 equipment prices... Or not. Just say the SR4 stuff is based off a new, cheaper manufacturing process, hence it's more essence and wallet friendly, and gradually the old gear is being brought over to this revolutionary process.)
You may also want to consider looking into SR3R which, hopefully, is still alive and continuing on. I know they're sticking with the SR3 mechanic, but I believe they're interested in dragging over some of the new ideas from SR4 as well.
| QUOTE (Setthoth @ Sep 25 2006, 01:16 AM) |
| I like many of the concepts in SR4 but the whole stat being half my dice really really bugs me. |
Curious, how much have you played with it? Because outside of Skill 1 meaning something now, it still plays a lot like Shadowrun.
| QUOTE |
| Anytone out there have rules for doing the wireless decking/rigging stuff under SR3 rules? |
Yah, it was called Rigger 3 and generally it just flat out sucked hard in a royal pain-in-the-ass sort of way.
| QUOTE |
| Or any other SR4 concepts to run under SR3 rules? |
Which concept would that be? The SR4 concept of NOT having 4 different game systems cobbled together using several different variations on dice mechanics?
Or do you like the jacking up in power that spirits got?
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| You may also want to consider looking into SR3R which, hopefully, is still alive and continuing on. |
Alive and dancing apparently.
But outside of a coming soon, copyright notice and some anime pics hosted on that sub-domain I'm not expecting much from SR3R before the SR4 versions of all the core extension books come out, if ever.But then again I never did. So that's just a guess.
Actually I was thinking of the way you no longer need to spend 1-2 mil in decking and or rigging equipment to have decent stuff and your skills are actually more useful than the equipment like it is in 3rd edition. I can probably convert some stuff myself but hey if someone else has done it already....
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| I am doing away with Security Tally (too much dice rolling/number crunching), and going to a simpler "Decker skill vs. System/Decker" mechanic for resolving matrix actions. |
Oh reeeeeaaaaallly? Do share
. I'm about to start another game, and I've been considering doing something similar. I haven't really codified it yet, but I'm thinking that IC and a sec tally will still be involved. I'll try to remember to post what I come up with.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| Yah, it was called Rigger 3 and generally it just flat out sucked hard in a royal pain-in-the-ass sort of way. |
Is it just the amount of stuff involved, or that you don't think the stuff itself is any good? I always liked the stuff in R3R, but I only pulled select bits from it at any given time.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| The SR4 concept of NOT having 4 different game systems cobbled together using several different variations on dice mechanics? |
I think they were selling this at the bait shop, but it died so they threw it out.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| But then again I never did. |
So...you've never read through the threads where its under development? Just because they don't have a flimsy release date doesn't mean nothing is going on. It is a "people in their free time" project, after all.
| QUOTE (eidolon @ Sep 27 2006, 08:29 AM) | ||
Is it just the amount of stuff involved, or that you don't think the stuff itself is any good? I always liked the stuff in R3R, but I only pulled select bits from it at any given time. |
Mostly it was just more sub-systems layered over top of the already twin solitutes of Matrix and Rigging. Bloat on top of sprawl.
Generally if you treat R3 as sort of a fluff book it works a lot better, and handling it as such I like it. 
| QUOTE (eidolon) | ||
I think they were selling this at the bait shop, but it died so they threw it out. |
Yeah, I heard they got rid of it to free up the shelfspace for their more traditional product of "SR3R under development". You can find that just past the Duke Nukem 4 display and then left down the "in free time project" isle.
Yes, I've browsed the threads, they aren't really that hard to keep up-to-date on
That's where I got the vibe from. But hey, Duke Nukem 4 has screen shots out now. So, ya know, there's hope.| QUOTE |
| Actually I was thinking of the way you no longer need to spend 1-2 mil in decking and or rigging equipment to have decent stuff and your skills are actually more useful than the equipment like it is in 3rd edition. I can probably convert some stuff myself but hey if someone else has done it already.... |
Well that is definately a nice thing. I suppose I'm to the point now where I take all those nice bonuses for granted.
Given that eidolon didn't pipe up with anything it sounds like you are on your own hashing that out for now.
Good luck.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| Given that eidolon didn't pipe up with anything it sounds like you are on your own hashing that out for now. |
It's nice to hear that I'm the only person on the boards, and that I'm the person everyone looks to for the answer for every question.
As to equipment prices...just change them. Lower them. Make the gear more available. De-emphasize the gear. That alone takes the focus off of the equipment and puts it more on skill, simply because if everyone can afford the best gear, everyone will have the best gear. ("everyone" not 100% literal there, obviously)
Then, if you like, you can look at how you view skills themselves in your game. Too often in my own games, especially using the BP system instead of Priorities, it seems that players don't consider a skill to be worth having unless it's at a 6. Look back to the descriptions of what each skill level means. (Can't recall the specific page number at the moment, sorry.) Rethink what it means to have a four, and a six, or even a two.
Keep in mind that when you apply changes to how you view and use the skill levels in relation to players, that you need to make the same changes to the way you view the skill levels of NPCs.
For example, move the perception of a skill of four, to being "good at the skill". Start treating and viewing a level six skill as something to really talk about. Of course, after a few runs, people will start raising skills, but you as GM can react in kind, but upping the skill level of NPCs. If nothing else, you've given more thought and emphasis to how the skills affect the way you run the game, and the players will pick up on that.
Alternatively, if you want to make skills more important, decrease the cost of increasing skills. Then advancement in skills becomes easier than upgrading equipment. Sure people will start having skills of 8 or 10 or 15, but if you accept that a 8-10 is "average" skill for a surgeon, which seems to be the case in SR3, accepting that a man who first fired a gun when he was 3 and has only stopped to eat and sleep since has a skill of 15 shouldn't be too much of a jump.
Admitedly, it will make the game much deadlier and I suppose hypothetically it could blow everything up, but it might work : )
Admitedly, it will make the game much deadlier and I suppose hypothetically it could blow everything up, but it might work : )
I'm not sure that reducing the cost of increasing a skill really serves to emphasize their importance.
If you make gaining skills too easy, it's no longer seen as something to work toward. It also takes away some of the sense of accomplishment that comes with raising a skill.
Just as devaluing gear reduces its worth, if high skills are commonplace, they're no longer important.
If you make gaining skills too easy, it's no longer seen as something to work toward. It also takes away some of the sense of accomplishment that comes with raising a skill.
Just as devaluing gear reduces its worth, if high skills are commonplace, they're no longer important.
| QUOTE (eidolon @ Sep 27 2006, 09:21 AM) | ||
It's nice to hear that I'm the only person on the boards, and that I'm the person everyone looks to for the answer for every question. |
What, you haven't read the threads?
Seriously I hadn't even noticed that a reorg of the cyberware prices (and cascading into character creation Resources and then into decking gear) was even on the current agenda muchless having any progress on it. I figured if it was you'd have mentioned it.| QUOTE |
| it seems that players don't consider a skill to be worth having unless it's at a 6. |
Skill 6 preference over a Skill 4 is a problem with the difference between creation costs vs. ingame costs, which was addressed by BeCKs if you are inclined to use that. Skill 6 over a Skill 2 is a problem not only with the difference, but that it is like playing Russian Roulette with this bad boy. One in 12 chance you blow your head clean off. Of course Skill 1, as you've basically acknowledged, is totally a spaceholder.
So, you know, basically it is a fundemental problem with the system he is choosing to use.
| QUOTE (nezumi @ Sep 27 2006, 10:33 AM) |
| Alternatively, if you want to make skills more important, decrease the cost of increasing skills. Then advancement in skills becomes easier than upgrading equipment. Sure people will start having skills of 8 or 10 or 15.... |
You know, I've heard of this happening somewhere before. In some new edition of some game. Any help out there pinning it down where this would be?
It also occurs to me that some sort of rule allowing a low skill (like a 1 or a 2) giving a bonus towards defaulting, since that's what you're still most likely going to do. Then you have the option of doing attribute + bonus from skill like SR4, it just isn't as nice as having the skill itself.
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