Running some test-combat scenarios. Here are questions that have come up:
1) Are negatives from Stun and Physical damage cumulative?
2) Can a character move PART of her movement, perform an action, then finish movement in that Intiative Pass?
3) Can Stun Damage be recovered in combat apart from a heal spell?
4) Spellcasting seems to inflict a LOT of stun damage. 2 Force 4 spells can almost knock a caster out. Is this correct?
5) The Street Samurai sample character uses a Smartlinked Stoner-Ares M202. With no recoil compensation, it automatically has a -18 dice pool modifier. Is this correct?
6) Full-Auto Wide gives a -9 to the defender's defensive roll. This means that if a defender has a reaction of 7 and is hiding behind cover (inflicting a -6 to the attacker) and the attacker HITS, the Defender doesn't even get a reaction roll to avoid the damage. Correct? (This is broken, IMHO).
Full Version: Questions Arising from Playtesting
1) yes
2) I believe it's up to the GM, our house ruled yes
3) Firstaid might help? Other than that, look at stim patches
4) Depends on the spell, and the drain resistance stats of the caster, but yes it can knock you on your hoop
5) I don't have my book, but it may have an included bi or tripod in the fluff description.
6)Barring long shot tests with edge, yes, but with -9 to def roll, you are doing the base DV of the weapon, not +9 DV for full auto. So it's not particularly leathal.
2) I believe it's up to the GM, our house ruled yes
3) Firstaid might help? Other than that, look at stim patches
4) Depends on the spell, and the drain resistance stats of the caster, but yes it can knock you on your hoop
5) I don't have my book, but it may have an included bi or tripod in the fluff description.
6)Barring long shot tests with edge, yes, but with -9 to def roll, you are doing the base DV of the weapon, not +9 DV for full auto. So it's not particularly leathal.
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux) |
| 3) Can Stun Damage be recovered in combat apart from a heal spell? 4) Spellcasting seems to inflict a LOT of stun damage. 2 Force 4 spells can almost knock a caster out. Is this correct? |
Heal spells don't work on stun, only physical damage. If you are in hour-long firefights you get chance to heal stun in combat.
You missed/misunderstood the drain resistance roll on page 167.
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux @ Sep 26 2006, 10:23 PM) |
| Running some test-combat scenarios. Here are questions that have come up: 1) Are negatives from Stun and Physical damage cumulative? |
Yes. Getting hurt be a bitch.
| QUOTE |
| 2) Can a character move PART of her movement, perform an action, then finish movement in that Intiative Pass? |
Maybe. You basically move while acting, this doesn't work like D&D where they are descrete actions where you'd require the Ride By Attack feat or something. What are the specifics of what was being attempted?
| QUOTE |
| 3) Can Stun Damage be recovered in combat apart from a heal spell? |
You can't recover Stun damage with a Heal spell. You can attempt a First Aid Test to recover Stun damage boxes but most combat will be completed before you recover the boxes (see the First Aid rules for treatment times). You can also quickly slap on a stim patch to negate the penalities, although the Stun boxes are still there.
| QUOTE |
| 4) Spellcasting seems to inflict a LOT of stun damage. 2 Force 4 spells can almost knock a caster out. Is this correct? |
That doesn't sound right. What spells were they casting, and what were their stats for Drain Tests?
| QUOTE |
| 5) The Street Samurai sample character uses a Smartlinked Stoner-Ares M202. With no recoil compensation, it automatically has a -18 dice pool modifier. Is this correct? |
I'm not certain about that number, could you break down how you arrived at it? But keep in mind that you are trying to hold and fire a Medium Machine Gun, a weapon that in typical use is mounted and/or affixed to something.
| QUOTE |
| 6) Full-Auto Wide gives a -9 to the defender's defensive roll. This means that if a defender has a reaction of 7 and is hiding behind cover (inflicting a -6 to the attacker) and the attacker HITS, the Defender doesn't even get a reaction roll to avoid the damage. Correct? (This is broken, IMHO). |
If they are behind cover (as opposed to concealment) you should be taking into account the barrier in some way.
EDIT: Also remember since apparently this is Blind Fire (to give the -6 die penalty) the attacker is using Intuition and not Agility. Often this will give a smaller dice pool. Although I think there are two things at work here that aren't related. The Blind Fire and the Full-Auto Wide modifiers, and you didn't include the other side of the Full-Auto modifier. Recoil.
1) yes.
2) don't think so, but not 100% sure.
3) yes. first aid takes a while to perform though, and the other thing that removes it is only temporary (comes back with one more point later, iirc).
4) are you referring to drain? if so, your casters clearly don't have enough in their drain attributes. especially willpower. or they're casting the spells that they shouldn't be (like that plasma one in street magic with a f/2 +7 DV). a force 4 spell that they use in combat should be running around 3-4 drain, tops, i would say. once they add in drain resist (any spellcaster should have at least 5 willpower, and at least 4 in their other drain stat imo, 5 if it's charisma, more if they're an elf and it's charisma) so they should be able to negate, on average, around 3 points of DV.
5) sure looks that way. but hey, at least he can shoot it, unlike the poor weapon specialist who had a rocket launcher but no rockets =P (actually, iirc if he was to split the full auto fire into shorter bursts, he wouldn't suffer full penalties on the earlier attacks iirc. still, he should have some RC on that thing at least... gas vent II, shock pad, and a bipod or even a tripod would be my recommendation. maybe tracers would be a good idea too?)
6) yes, that's correct. barring the use of edge, that is. if you don't like it, add the dice to the defender's roll instead of adding them to the attackers roll for cover. now the defender starts off with 13 dice, reduced to 4 by the wide burst... still crappy odds, but at least possible.
[edit] it should be noted that the archetypes in general are not nearly as well built as they would be if most players were to design them. thus, if you are using archetypes for playtesting, expect it to be a little underwhelming sometimes... [/edit]
2) don't think so, but not 100% sure.
3) yes. first aid takes a while to perform though, and the other thing that removes it is only temporary (comes back with one more point later, iirc).
4) are you referring to drain? if so, your casters clearly don't have enough in their drain attributes. especially willpower. or they're casting the spells that they shouldn't be (like that plasma one in street magic with a f/2 +7 DV). a force 4 spell that they use in combat should be running around 3-4 drain, tops, i would say. once they add in drain resist (any spellcaster should have at least 5 willpower, and at least 4 in their other drain stat imo, 5 if it's charisma, more if they're an elf and it's charisma) so they should be able to negate, on average, around 3 points of DV.
5) sure looks that way. but hey, at least he can shoot it, unlike the poor weapon specialist who had a rocket launcher but no rockets =P (actually, iirc if he was to split the full auto fire into shorter bursts, he wouldn't suffer full penalties on the earlier attacks iirc. still, he should have some RC on that thing at least... gas vent II, shock pad, and a bipod or even a tripod would be my recommendation. maybe tracers would be a good idea too?)
6) yes, that's correct. barring the use of edge, that is. if you don't like it, add the dice to the defender's roll instead of adding them to the attackers roll for cover. now the defender starts off with 13 dice, reduced to 4 by the wide burst... still crappy odds, but at least possible.
[edit] it should be noted that the archetypes in general are not nearly as well built as they would be if most players were to design them. thus, if you are using archetypes for playtesting, expect it to be a little underwhelming sometimes... [/edit]
OK, the Spellcaster in our test-run was the Shangri-La Mage from the Junkyard encounter of On The Run. 5 Will, 4 Charisma. Using Powerball at Force 4, I get a Drain value of 5. If I roll badly enough (tonight I did) after two castings she's well over 6 stun damage. Especially since after the first hit I incur a -1 dice pool modifier due to stun damage.
You'd think this was isolated, but we've playtested twice now and both times the Magician all but KOed himself/herself simply by casting spells.
Even MORE annoying was the fact that with a force 4 Spell (the max she can cast without overcasting) other characters were very able to resist the 3 hits she scored. (or were they supposed to resist all 7 Physical damage?) Step 5: Determine the Effect on p. 173 is unclear whether the target's resistance acts as an opposed test to the caster's attack, or just to the damage. Based on how it read, I ruled that the resistance by living creatures went to whether or not the magic SUCCEEDED. So my Powerball got completely resisted by the Sample BountyHunter and Sample Gunslinger Adept, but killed the guy they were trying to aprehend.
*********
Regarding the Stoner-Ares M202, it lists no Bipod and the stats give it no recoil compensation. It is under the section "Machine Guns and Assault Cannons" on p.310, the entry paragraph indicates that all uncompensated recoil of is doubled as penalty. With the +2 from Smartlink and 12 from Agility and Automatics, the Street Sammie can still never fire the gun, as he never has any dice to roll. (still at a -4, chummer!)
As far as firing it in burst mode, the stats don't give it a burst mode. So it is only capable of firing in Full Auto.
You'd think this was isolated, but we've playtested twice now and both times the Magician all but KOed himself/herself simply by casting spells.
Even MORE annoying was the fact that with a force 4 Spell (the max she can cast without overcasting) other characters were very able to resist the 3 hits she scored. (or were they supposed to resist all 7 Physical damage?) Step 5: Determine the Effect on p. 173 is unclear whether the target's resistance acts as an opposed test to the caster's attack, or just to the damage. Based on how it read, I ruled that the resistance by living creatures went to whether or not the magic SUCCEEDED. So my Powerball got completely resisted by the Sample BountyHunter and Sample Gunslinger Adept, but killed the guy they were trying to aprehend.
*********
Regarding the Stoner-Ares M202, it lists no Bipod and the stats give it no recoil compensation. It is under the section "Machine Guns and Assault Cannons" on p.310, the entry paragraph indicates that all uncompensated recoil of is doubled as penalty. With the +2 from Smartlink and 12 from Agility and Automatics, the Street Sammie can still never fire the gun, as he never has any dice to roll. (still at a -4, chummer!)
As far as firing it in burst mode, the stats don't give it a burst mode. So it is only capable of firing in Full Auto.
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux) |
| Running some test-combat scenarios. Here are questions that have come up: 1) Are negatives from Stun and Physical damage cumulative? 2) Can a character move PART of her movement, perform an action, then finish movement in that Intiative Pass? 3) Can Stun Damage be recovered in combat apart from a heal spell? 4) Spellcasting seems to inflict a LOT of stun damage. 2 Force 4 spells can almost knock a caster out. Is this correct? 5) The Street Samurai sample character uses a Smartlinked Stoner-Ares M202. With no recoil compensation, it automatically has a -18 dice pool modifier. Is this correct? 6) Full-Auto Wide gives a -9 to the defender's defensive roll. This means that if a defender has a reaction of 7 and is hiding behind cover (inflicting a -6 to the attacker) and the attacker HITS, the Defender doesn't even get a reaction roll to avoid the damage. Correct? (This is broken, IMHO). |
1) Yes
2) Not stated, GM call
3) No way to recover STUN damage during combat. Heal spells do NOT heal stun. Stims allow you to IGNORE stun, but do not heal. To heal stun you need an HOUR of complete rest (forced naps and unconsciousness also count). (see page 242)
4) Really depends on the spell:
2 Manabolt (force 4) would have a DV of (F/2=2) each. Even if the caster fails to get ANY hits on his drain resistance roll (willpower + (vaires)) wont knock a anyone out.
2 Fireball (force 4) would have a DV of ((f/2)+5 = 7) each. a COULD knock the caster out but likely wouldnt (and the area manipulation damages are about as painful as they get to cast)
5) Havent looked at it but a quick check: First FULL auto weapons can firse 'burst as above' (narrow wide from above) or Long burst as a simple or a full burst as a complex.
Heavy weapons do have a uncompensated recoil * 2 modifier.
So a FULL burst from a Stoner (with no mods) would impose a -18 dice penalty.
As is it would mostly be for suppresive fire (for simplicity sake we assume that wide burst and recoil modifers cancel each other) make agility + appropriate firearm skill ......
The stoner would work well still for suppresive fire with no recoil mods (RAW).
preumably the sammie would likely be looking to get some kind of recoil mod for the stoner.... from the first payout.
6) almost, doesnt get a reaction roll to avoid the BULLETS... they will 'get hit'; however since it is base weapon damage (not modified by burt fire since wide burst) so fairly easy to SOAK the damage resitance roll. (bullets are going to hit you but not particularly well, you armor/body should let you shrug off the glancing hits). Also that presuming the ATTACKer has enough dice to hit you with whatever recoil modifere, the concealment modifer, and anyother penalties.
Peace
you can split full auto up into separate attacks though, which is what i was referring to.
as far as the powerball spell, clearly your mage was using the wrong spell. at most he should be using manaball, or maybe even stunball if he doesn't feel the need to outright kill the targets. manaball would have 4 drain per use, often reduced to 1 by that guy's drain resist pool. a stunball would typically result in no drain.
also, your spellcasting dice pool on that guy is a little lower than usual, i would guess.
as far as your guys resisting, i assume they had counterspelling up from somewhere? if so, it's fine. that's why you *need* a mage in shadowrun if you're facing another mage.
as far as the powerball spell, clearly your mage was using the wrong spell. at most he should be using manaball, or maybe even stunball if he doesn't feel the need to outright kill the targets. manaball would have 4 drain per use, often reduced to 1 by that guy's drain resist pool. a stunball would typically result in no drain.
also, your spellcasting dice pool on that guy is a little lower than usual, i would guess.
as far as your guys resisting, i assume they had counterspelling up from somewhere? if so, it's fine. that's why you *need* a mage in shadowrun if you're facing another mage.
No counterspelling was up.
The Mage in question had Spellcasting 4.
So Spellcasting+Magic = 8 dice, maximum of 4 hits (cast at force 4). I rolled 3 hits, and the two player characters shrugged it off. The Mage didn't care whether or not the third guy died, and Powerball is the only Area of effect Spell she packs.
The Mage in question had Spellcasting 4.
So Spellcasting+Magic = 8 dice, maximum of 4 hits (cast at force 4). I rolled 3 hits, and the two player characters shrugged it off. The Mage didn't care whether or not the third guy died, and Powerball is the only Area of effect Spell she packs.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| you can split full auto up into separate attacks though, which is what i was referring to. |
Where does it say this, please? The stats on p. 310 indicate that it can only fire at Full Auto.
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux) | ||
Where does it say this, please? The stats on p. 310 indicate that it can only fire at Full Auto. |
page 143. i will quote some relevant sections for you
| QUOTE |
| Weapons that can fi re in full-auto mode throw bullets for as long as the attacker keeps the trigger pulled. Characters can use a weapon in full-auto mode to fi re bursts, as noted above, each taking a Simple Action. Full-auto weapons can also be used to fi re long bursts with a Simple Action or full bursts with a Complex Action. |
| QUOTE |
| Multiple Targets: Full bursts may be made against more than one target as long as they are within one meter of each other, but in that case treat it as separate burst fi re attacks against each target (one short and one long against two targets, or three short against three targets). |
those are at least 2 different ways a full-auto weapon can be used without taking the full penalties on each attack. of course, the second/third part of the attack is still gonna suck, but that's at least something. and for completeness, as was mentioned by someone else:
| QUOTE |
| Suppressive fi re is treated as a wide burst, but for simplicity we assume that the wide burst and recoil modifi ers cancel out. |
so that's a third way. those are all on page 143-144 by the way, in the combat section rather than the gear section.
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux @ Sep 26 2006, 11:23 PM) |
| OK, the Spellcaster in our test-run was the Shangri-La Mage from the Junkyard encounter of On The Run. 5 Will, 4 Charisma. Using Powerball at Force 4, I get a Drain value of 5. If I roll badly enough (tonight I did) after two castings she's well over 6 stun damage. Especially since after the first hit I incur a -1 dice pool modifier due to stun damage. You'd think this was isolated, but we've playtested twice now and both times the Magician all but KOed himself/herself simply by casting spells. |
Well you are casting a Area of Effect, Physical damage spell. That's about as bad as drain gets. I think you can take away a valuable lesson about spell selection.
Also normally casters pick odd numbers because of that (oh how I hate it) rounding down of Drain, although having a Magic of 4 does make casting at Force 5 sting a bit more.
I've personally never seen a mage drop in play from casting, and overcasting is fairly common. Rack up some damage boxes sure. But just 6 ain't going to drop nobody, especially if you spread it around between Stun and Physical from overcasting. Of course the mages that cast the big heat are typically using foci to help out with drain, and casters with poor Drain Test dice pools tend to spend karma on boosting that early on.
Danke. (I knew about suppression, but had missed the other two)
Here's another two.
How do you guys handle maps? Most of my playtesters have DnD experience, so we used ye olde DnD gridmaps and set each square at 2.5 meteres so that a player moves on average 4 squares per turn. It seemed OK but not great. Even MORE awkward was trying to break 4 squares up into 3 initiative passes for the Sammie and Gunslinger Adept.
It Actually seems to be less of a benefit at times for the movement to be broken up so much. At one point, the player controlling the Gunslinger Adept asked if he could just forgo the extra rounds of initiative in order to make a complete charge (attempting to grapple her mark, even though she failed miserably.) I let him do it, since otherwise, multiple initiative pass characters get gyped when it comes to running for cover, charging, etc.
Here's another two.
How do you guys handle maps? Most of my playtesters have DnD experience, so we used ye olde DnD gridmaps and set each square at 2.5 meteres so that a player moves on average 4 squares per turn. It seemed OK but not great. Even MORE awkward was trying to break 4 squares up into 3 initiative passes for the Sammie and Gunslinger Adept.
It Actually seems to be less of a benefit at times for the movement to be broken up so much. At one point, the player controlling the Gunslinger Adept asked if he could just forgo the extra rounds of initiative in order to make a complete charge (attempting to grapple her mark, even though she failed miserably.) I let him do it, since otherwise, multiple initiative pass characters get gyped when it comes to running for cover, charging, etc.
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux @ Sep 26 2006, 11:53 PM) |
| How do you guys handle maps? Most of my playtesters have DnD experience, so we used ye olde DnD gridmaps and set each square at 2.5 meteres so that a player moves on average 4 squares per turn. It seemed OK but not great. Even MORE awkward was trying to break 4 squares up into 3 initiative passes for the Sammie and Gunslinger Adept. It Actually seems to be less of a benefit at times for the movement to be broken up so much. At one point, the player controlling the Gunslinger Adept asked if he could just forgo the extra rounds of initiative in order to make a complete charge (attempting to grapple her mark, even though she failed miserably.) I let him do it, since otherwise, multiple initiative pass characters get gyped when it comes to running for cover, charging, etc. |
Generally I toss grids. Don't even really even use the movement rates that much. But having the battlemat out with a rough sketch of the area I do find useful. It'll just be a tough thing to get them to stop doing grid-trig.
Stress that it's not completely to scale. Even turn the battlemat 45 degrees to bring it home. Or use some other thing that doesn't even have grid, like a whiteboard or even those 36" wide doddling rolls, to break their habit. EDIT: Another reason to toss the grid is that outdoors get even crazier than in D&D. Because ranged combat is the norm you just aren't going to fit many fights on a grid and still keep the increments of individual squares meaningful.
So how do you run combat, then? Seems you have to be able to legislate movement somehow....
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux @ Sep 26 2006, 11:59 PM) |
| So how do you run combat, then? Seems you have to be able to legislate movement somehow.... |
Generally have rough distances to the layout. If it's in the ballpark just let them close and kick some ass. If you get hung up on meters and 1/2 meters you tend to kill the combat.
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||
Generally have rough distances to the layout. If it's in the ballpark just let them close and kick some ass. If you get hung up on meters and 1/2 meters you tend to kill the combat. |
Hrm. You're going to have to give me more than that.
The 2 games I've played extensively are Battletech and DnD - both with extensive rules governing movement. You'll have to pretty much walk me through this.
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux @ Sep 27 2006, 05:23 AM) |
| the first hit I incur a -1 dice pool modifier due to stun damage. ....... As far as firing it in burst mode, the stats don't give it a burst mode. So it is only capable of firing in Full Auto. |
Read Step 6 Resist Drain (page 174)
".... Note that wound modifiers or sustained spells have no effect on the characters dice pool for drain resistance tests"
So you did short change yourself a die on the second one.
So a force 4 powerball against somebody.
You roll: spellcasting + magic (+ mofiders from Foci/Totems/etc)
They Roll: Body + Coutnerspelling (if any)
Three hits sounds like a reasonably average for you sucesses. Unless they had a mage backup.. (providing coutnerspelling) or they were all trolls... they should have the 9-12 body to get equal to your three hits.
If they get less then your hits on their roll, they take: 5 + (your hits - their hits) DV. (two casts are likely putting anyone not a troll and without counterspelling on the ground ina 4 meter radius.
Now if they have a mage, then area effects spells begin to lose effectiveness fast (if mage is providing counterspellings). DROP THE MAGE.... (always a good rule). Also make sure you GM knows the mage needs LOS to everyone he is protecting to provide counterspelling which means the mage needs to be someplace close to the center of action...
Also Body is by far the favorite stat to raise to unholy levels.... Manaball (easier to resist drain) is often a much better choice. resisted with will power.. (often not 'maxxed' and MUCH harder to raise with cyber/bio (not sure there is any yet until augmennted) (magic and drugs can raise willpower)
IF two force 4 powerballs killed once person and didnt touch others and there wasnt somebody providing counterspelling and they were trolls or dragons.. then betting something was done wrong on their resitance. You said you got three sucesses, so unless they all had 9+ body they statisically should have gotten hit.. if they got hit they were taking 6+ physical... (for each time)
(EDIT: Typo in above damage would be 4+net hits NOT 5)
Read FULL AUTO on page 143:
"Weapons that can fire in full auto mode throw bullets for as long as the attacker keeps the trigger pulled. Characters can use a weapon in full-auto mode to fire bursts (as noted above) each taking a simple action. Full auto-weapons can also fire a long burts with a simple action, or full burts as a complex action."
Pretty much gives you the full range of choices for bursts....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now the only 'problem' would be the 'Ranged Combat Modifer Table' which lists:
'Recoil, Full AUto -9"
Now to me this is a typo and should read:
"Recoil, FULL BURST -9"
Since a 'Long Burts' is ONLY fire-able from a full auto weapon, which 'RAW" (if not typo) means a Longburst woudl have a modifier of -14
(same table: recoil, Long burst -5 (first) -6 (second).
So if 'Full auto' is meant for any full auto fire, then both woudl apply. If however, the line for full auto is referring to a 'Full burst' (keeping it the same refernce as the 'short' / 'long' / 'X' pattern. thenit all makes sense.
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux @ Sep 27 2006, 12:16 AM) | ||||
Hrm. You're going to have to give me more than that. The 2 games I've played extensively are Battletech and DnD - both with extensive rules governing movement. You'll have to pretty much walk me through this. |
Hrm, yes that's going to be a tough background to come at it from.
I'm going to bed shortly, but I'll try to post up something tomorrow. The gist of it is though to stop sweating the spacial details.
Primarily because of the difference scales you are using, and because the rules aren't really conducive to that sort of thing. Inspite of them giving so precise of numbers for the different metahuman movement rates. :/
| QUOTE (laughingowl) |
| If they get less then your hits on their roll, they take: 5 + (your hits - their hits) DV. ...... You said you got three sucesses, so unless they all had 9+ body they statisically should have gotten hit.. if they got hit they were taking 6+ physical... (for each time) |
How did you come up with 5+hits in this? Am I misreading that a Powerball at Force 4 would do 4 damage plus net hits?
Hmm looks like Jaid answered the Full auto better then me..
Don't really like edit, but I will say re-reading my above post it is a little harsher then I meant.
didn't mean it to be quite as harsh, just wanted to point out what likely was overlooked.
As to movement I have done SR two ways...
Battletech style... String and miniatures... for that total realistic but only for VERY important fights and only with the folks that like the details (and painfully slow setups)
Visualized...
This is what I normally do, I describe the scene like a narrator in the book. When it comes to movement I ad hoc the rough effect playing it out in my mind. I USUALLY will rule in favor of the PCs to help offset the inaccuracy of it, but it makes play speeds MUCH faster and my players don't mind.
Peace
Don't really like edit, but I will say re-reading my above post it is a little harsher then I meant.
didn't mean it to be quite as harsh, just wanted to point out what likely was overlooked.
As to movement I have done SR two ways...
Battletech style... String and miniatures... for that total realistic but only for VERY important fights and only with the folks that like the details (and painfully slow setups)
Visualized...
This is what I normally do, I describe the scene like a narrator in the book. When it comes to movement I ad hoc the rough effect playing it out in my mind. I USUALLY will rule in favor of the PCs to help offset the inaccuracy of it, but it makes play speeds MUCH faster and my players don't mind.
Peace
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux) | ||
How did you come up with 5+hits in this? Am I misreading that a Powerball at Force 4 would do 4 damage plus net hits? |
Sorry Maddog, that what I get for referencing the PDF..
The example in the PDF was a force 5 spell.... so 5 got on my brain. yeah the proper formula would be:
Your rolls: Sorcery+magic+(foci/totem/???)
Their Rolls: Body+coutnerspelling (possibly)
IF you have net hits.. then damage is 4+your net hits
Sorry for any confusion
For the movement-grid question, the idea is to "loosen up" a little bit regarding movement rates. There are mainly two reasons for doing this: a. the already mentioned scale of combats, long ranged combat, firearms, etc. and b. the combination of multiple actions per round + character movement rates per round, not per action, does not make visualization easy.
One of the best appeals Shadowrun 4 has is it's speed. It goes with the setting too, having fast paced combat with bullets flying all around and characters dazing out from cover... In SR4, having detailed, meter by meter, combats in highly detailed battlegrounds slow down things and does not produce a significant gain in "realism" or balance imho, it actually hinders the flow of action and demands greater efforts from both Gm and players. = tiring
AFAIC It's better to have a sketch of the places where the fight will take place, a rough idea of the scale. -Stress rough- and then have players move around accordingly. Maybe the adept starts running and dodges -full defense- in his first action then reaches the mark in his second. Eventually all players and Gm get used to not worrying so much for scale and precision and start enjoying faster, more creative fights in the game.
Of course, some people do prefer the miniature-grid approach. And that's perfectly fine and sound If that's your cup of tea. I just do not think shadowrun ruleset is too friendly with that approach as opposed to D&D or Battletech.
Anyway, hope our ideas are helpful and that your groups finds whatever way they enjoy the most. Welcome to the shadows!
Cheers,
Max
One of the best appeals Shadowrun 4 has is it's speed. It goes with the setting too, having fast paced combat with bullets flying all around and characters dazing out from cover... In SR4, having detailed, meter by meter, combats in highly detailed battlegrounds slow down things and does not produce a significant gain in "realism" or balance imho, it actually hinders the flow of action and demands greater efforts from both Gm and players. = tiring
AFAIC It's better to have a sketch of the places where the fight will take place, a rough idea of the scale. -Stress rough- and then have players move around accordingly. Maybe the adept starts running and dodges -full defense- in his first action then reaches the mark in his second. Eventually all players and Gm get used to not worrying so much for scale and precision and start enjoying faster, more creative fights in the game.
Of course, some people do prefer the miniature-grid approach. And that's perfectly fine and sound If that's your cup of tea. I just do not think shadowrun ruleset is too friendly with that approach as opposed to D&D or Battletech.
Anyway, hope our ideas are helpful and that your groups finds whatever way they enjoy the most. Welcome to the shadows!
Cheers,
Max
I'm a tactical gamer as well and I personally prefer to use a hex mat with each hex being 1m or 2m depending on the environment. Hexes are simpler for angles, doors are typically 1m wide (2m for double doors), hallways are 2m wide, road lanes are 4m each, etc, etc. Squares are simpler for drawing buildings, though so YMMV.
Here's the shorthand on casters:
Never fire physical combat spells at anyone who looks like they might get shot for a living.
Never fire mana combat spells at casters.
Drain sucks but not as much as death; always go for the KO even if it involves overcasting.
Specialization may be limiting but it gives you a core competence. Mediocre generalists simply have more ability to fatally delude themselves into thinking they are competent.
Don't look like a mage; wear armor and carry a weapon like everyone else (consider an autoshotgun; wide choke+wide bursts compensate for low skills. As do grenade launchers with AE stun grenades.)
Here's the shorthand on casters:
Never fire physical combat spells at anyone who looks like they might get shot for a living.
Never fire mana combat spells at casters.
Drain sucks but not as much as death; always go for the KO even if it involves overcasting.
Specialization may be limiting but it gives you a core competence. Mediocre generalists simply have more ability to fatally delude themselves into thinking they are competent.
Don't look like a mage; wear armor and carry a weapon like everyone else (consider an autoshotgun; wide choke+wide bursts compensate for low skills. As do grenade launchers with AE stun grenades.)
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux) |
| How do you guys handle maps? Most of my playtesters have DnD experience, so we used ye olde DnD gridmaps and set each square at 2.5 meteres so that a player moves on average 4 squares per turn. It seemed OK but not great. Even MORE awkward was trying to break 4 squares up into 3 initiative passes for the Sammie and Gunslinger Adept. It Actually seems to be less of a benefit at times for the movement to be broken up so much. At one point, the player controlling the Gunslinger Adept asked if he could just forgo the extra rounds of initiative in order to make a complete charge (attempting to grapple her mark, even though she failed miserably.) I let him do it, since otherwise, multiple initiative pass characters get gyped when it comes to running for cover, charging, etc. |
Since movement is over the entire combat turn, you might want to have people move in each initiative pass, even if they can take no actions. So with your 4 squares walking/10 squares running movement, each person moves 1 square each pass (or maybe 2/1/1 since no one has more than 3 passes) when walking and 3/3/2/2 or 4/3/3 when running.
For the movement part, you might want to allow anyone to do their move on the init pass of their choice, be it the first or fourth. That is what they seem to be suggesting in the RAW.
I would only use the split up movement for a critical, epic part of the run, like your wired III sammy is trying to reach the abort button on the self-destruct of the nuclear plant, before the Winternight guys does, while being shot at by the rest of the Winternight team.
Save it for the memorial moments, if you even us it then.
I would only use the split up movement for a critical, epic part of the run, like your wired III sammy is trying to reach the abort button on the self-destruct of the nuclear plant, before the Winternight guys does, while being shot at by the rest of the Winternight team.
Save it for the memorial moments, if you even us it then.
One way you could go about doing movement rules, is to have minis on a ungridded map, and use rulers to say 1 inch = 2 meters. Then when the person moves, give them a 5 inch radius that they can move around in. Thats kind of a WH40K style movement. It works well as a step between just describing (totally freeform movement), and DnD (Exactly described movement)
Also, Powerball is a tough cast, you'll definately KO yourself with it, choose easier spells like Manaball or manabolt and you'll come out much better. My mage character has only one AOE spell and thats lightningball, because if he has to cast it, he's pretty much doing it as a last ditch effort to down the guy/drone/whatever and will plan to KO him self.
Also, Powerball is a tough cast, you'll definately KO yourself with it, choose easier spells like Manaball or manabolt and you'll come out much better. My mage character has only one AOE spell and thats lightningball, because if he has to cast it, he's pretty much doing it as a last ditch effort to down the guy/drone/whatever and will plan to KO him self.
nevermind me, I ate retarded for breakfast this morning.
| QUOTE (Wiseman) |
| nevermind me, I ate retarded for breakfast this morning. |
Breakfast of champions!
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| I'm going to bed shortly, but I'll try to post up something tomorrow. The gist of it is though to stop sweating the spacial details. Primarily because of the difference scales you are using, and because the rules aren't really conducive to that sort of thing. Inspite of them giving so precise of numbers for the different metahuman movement rates. :/ |
*cough*
I'm eagerly awaiting this. Just FYI. <wink>
Whilst reading this my first reaction was to suggest breaking out the rulers too.
To me just guesstimating it seemsdifficult to track, I would prefer having a reference of where people are straight there. Then if you need to know if X is in range to do something to Y you can just measure.
To me just guesstimating it seemsdifficult to track, I would prefer having a reference of where people are straight there. Then if you need to know if X is in range to do something to Y you can just measure.
Why exactly is it that more IPs make a character slower when running?
Imagine the following scenario: Joe Normalo (no enhancements) and Streetsam Claw with 4 IPs (both of the same race / movement category) both try to run a certain distance, lets say their maximum running movement distance X. Let's further assume that none of them uses the running skill as to keep it simple.
Of course Claw has the higher initiative and begins. He runs X/4 meters because his total movement capability is devided equally between all of his IPs.
Now it's Joe's turn. In his one and only IP he runs X meters and arrives at first.
Now Claw angrily stopps and shoots Joe in the back 3 times...
Obviously this is not what was intended. Might this just be another evidence that the initiative-system is to be changed?
Imagine the following scenario: Joe Normalo (no enhancements) and Streetsam Claw with 4 IPs (both of the same race / movement category) both try to run a certain distance, lets say their maximum running movement distance X. Let's further assume that none of them uses the running skill as to keep it simple.
Of course Claw has the higher initiative and begins. He runs X/4 meters because his total movement capability is devided equally between all of his IPs.
Now it's Joe's turn. In his one and only IP he runs X meters and arrives at first.
Now Claw angrily stopps and shoots Joe in the back 3 times...
Obviously this is not what was intended. Might this just be another evidence that the initiative-system is to be changed?
| QUOTE (Xenefungus) |
| Why exactly is it that more IPs make a character slower when running? Imagine the following scenario: Joe Normalo (no enhancements) and Streetsam Claw with 4 IPs (both of the same race / movement category) both try to run a certain distance, lets say their maximum running movement distance X. Let's further assume that none of them uses the running skill as to keep it simple. Of course Claw has the higher initiative and begins. He runs X/4 meters because his total movement capability is devided equally between all of his IPs. Now it's Joe's turn. In his one and only IP he runs X meters and arrives at first. Now Claw angrily stopps and shoots Joe in the back 3 times... Obviously this is not what was intended. Might this just be another evidence that the initiative-system is to be changed? |
If it seems silly don't do it.
There have already been several suggestions in this thread on segmented movement.
And in any case you need to consider that OOC and IC action resolution occur in different streams.
If you resolve all actions OOC, then describe the IC affect at the end of the combat turn the timing problems go away.
e.g. Claw goes First and say he will run to point X. Joes say he will run to Point X. The Claw says he will do A on IP 2, then Claw saya he will do B on IP 3, then Claw says he will do C on IP4.
(The issue of who actually arrives first could be subject of a Running test if needed)
IC Description Claw and Joe both start running for Point X, on the way to Point X Claw does A, b and C, while Joe watches in amazement as they both arrive at Point X.
I don't see it as a proof the system needs to be changed. I see it as yet another indication that game systems have to abstract things, and it can sometimes cause odd results that need a human hand.
I'll give you another example. Say you have 5000 unaugmented humans. They all stand max movement distance apart from each other, in a straight line. Each delays init to go immediately after the person before them in line.
Person 1 picks up a rock, moves full movement to the next person, and hands it to them. Person 2 does the same. All the way down to person 5000. This rock has now moved 150,000 m (30 meters move?) in 3 seconds. It is travelling at incredible speeds.
Did that happen? No. Could it happen? No. Does the rules abstraction allow for that? Yes.
I'll give you another example. Say you have 5000 unaugmented humans. They all stand max movement distance apart from each other, in a straight line. Each delays init to go immediately after the person before them in line.
Person 1 picks up a rock, moves full movement to the next person, and hands it to them. Person 2 does the same. All the way down to person 5000. This rock has now moved 150,000 m (30 meters move?) in 3 seconds. It is travelling at incredible speeds.
Did that happen? No. Could it happen? No. Does the rules abstraction allow for that? Yes.
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux) |
| *cough* I'm eagerly awaiting this. Just FYI. <wink> |
Oops, sorry I think most of what was said has been said. I guess I'll start with a question, these maps you are making up. Are you basically laying out a dungeon crawl?
One thing that I used to use in minis gaming was a string that was measured for the max length. Then you could very accurately track movement. If you were really motivated, you could tie knots at the IP lengths....
| QUOTE |
| Running some test-combat scenarios. Here are questions that have come up: 1) Are negatives from Stun and Physical damage cumulative? |
yes. Just like in previous editions. Different systems are being taxed as you are taking the different types of damage. Remeber this, DAMAGE is BAD for the characters. It makes them act slowers (effects init), harder to do things, and they are just that much closer to death.
| QUOTE |
| 2) Can a character move PART of her movement, perform an action, then finish movement in that Intiative Pass? |
up to the GM. Since I dont draw out the combats, or at least not so far. I have the players describe what they are doing and go from there.
| QUOTE |
| 3) Can Stun Damage be recovered in combat apart from a heal spell? |
nope. but stim patches help out a lot.
| QUOTE |
| 4) Spellcasting seems to inflict a LOT of stun damage. 2 Force 4 spells can almost knock a caster out. Is this correct? |
it could but the mage would be rolling really really badly. My mages generally through force 3-4 spells around like it is nothing. Most of the time no drain or 1 box max.
hopefully this helps.
dog
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||
Oops, sorry I think most of what was said has been said. I guess I'll start with a question, these maps you are making up. Are you basically laying out a dungeon crawl? |
Actually no. usually it's just an alley or something. Our most recent playtest used the Junkyard from OnTheRun. I just drew it out on grid-map with each square being 2.5 meters.
I understand that Shadowrun may be a more abstract combat system than Battletech or DnD - and that's all well and good if you are familiar with running a game with such abstractions. But when both you and your players are primarily (if not only) familiar with very exact combat rules for movement and such, you can't just glibly tell them "ok, we're going abstract here" and then start making stuff up. For one thing, I'd fail at it, and for another, the players would not be happy.
If I'm going to make this transition (against which I am NOT arguing), then you old-school SR pros will have to talk me through it.
Heck. Anyone live anywhere nere Fort Worth TX or Shreveport, LA? I'd gladly come spend an afternoon watching a game session.
Well, I've decided to just try it with my local buds. One in particular is really experienced with non-gridmap DnD from versions 1.0 and on. So tonight we sat around and created a character for him to run with. I figured I can GM a solo campaign for him (made sure he had some good contacts, including a Doc and a Hacker) and learn on the fly, while asking him conceptual questions as needed.
Got another friend in the area who already has the SR4 book and has made a character, I guess when he's free he can join also. *shrugs* We'll see how it develops. look for more reports here.
Got another friend in the area who already has the SR4 book and has made a character, I guess when he's free he can join also. *shrugs* We'll see how it develops. look for more reports here.
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