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cybertrucker
Was curious as to if anyone else has came up with any house rules for characters with multiple actions, Our group has came up with a system that seems much more realistic based off of the descriptions of wired relfexes and such.

What we do is this. Everyone rolls their initiative what they get is their base initiative for their first IP, they subtract 5 from that number and go on their 2nd IP, subtract 5 again and go on their 3rd IP etc etc...That way someone who is really boosted has a a chance of making those slow mofos really seem slow.

We originally had it to subtracting 2 from each IP but decided that it was to powerful that way for the non augmented. Our mage whined about it even though the group still considered him to be the powerhitter in the group, he didnt like having alot of shit dead by the time he went.

I guess the reason we did it is because it just doesnt make sense to us that ohh i am superhumanly fast so now i am going to go and just sit here and wait for you to shoot back at me before I act. With this system in place people that are superhumanly fast actually appear to be more so than the way the rules are written.
hyzmarca
Yeah, a similar system was used in SR1 and SR2. In SR3 they charged it for reasons that should be obvious. Characters without initiative enhancements were pretty much useless. The ability to take all of their IPs before anyone else moves makes the wired stree samurai pretty much invincible except against other street sams and great dragons.
Serbitar
The IP order

3-1-4-2

workes pretty well for us.
Crusher Bob
Other initiative house rules that have been discussed in the past that you also might have missed:

A speed chart (esentially lifted from the Hero system) that looks something like:

CODE

                Phase
# IP          1           2           3         4
1                                       X
2                          X                      X
3              X                        X         X
4               X           X           X         X



Each round is broken down into (in this example, 4) phases. Depending on the number of IP you have, you go in a particular phase. So the character with 1 IP would act in phase 3, the character with 2 IP would act in phase 2 and 4, and so on. This way, the actions are more staggerd that the (current) multiple IP system. Ties are broken by comparing reaction. The problem here is that those who memorize the speed chart havea slight edge over those who don't.

Random phase actions:
Rounds are divided into 6 phases. For each IP a character has during the round, they roll a d6. The numbers showing on the d6 are the phases that the character will act on. Ties are broken by comparing the totals of characters remaining action dice. The higher total goes first.
Example: two characters are in a fight. Both have 2 IP. Character 1 rolls 2 action dice and gets 2 and 6. Character two gets 2 and 2 on his action dice.

Both characters act in phase 2 (in fact, character 2 will act twice). ON the first pass in phase 2, character 1 has a total 8 (2 +6) while character 2 has a total of 4 (2+2). Character 1 goes first. Then character 2 goes (twice). Finally character 2 goes again on phase 6.
cybertrucker
We are going to stick to the -5 per initiative per pass... it seems the most realistic, I realize that a similiar system was in place in the older editions which is something I actually liked. In the new editions Street Sams really have no edge whatsoever over any other class. I realize that argument has been done to death though. I look upon the 4th edition street sam now as the jack of all trades master of none. There is nothing a street sam can do that a Physad Cant do better, and having multiple IPs now is something that pretty much anyone in the game is going to have unless they are a technomancer. Which most people will tell you in alot of ways they are gimps themselves unless dealing with one specific aspect of the game.

The way it states Wired reflexes is that people around you seem to be moving in slow motion therefore I see no reason to think that you couldnt get to attack move shoot or do whatever more than once before they have a chance to react to you.
Now for fairness we did get rid of the -2 initiative per pass because if someone rolled good they would end up going to many times before someone with a bad roll or low initiative score. When we did have it that way Our Sword master Physad usually ended up killing most the people around when combat insued, followed up by our wired weapon specialist. Our Technomancer pretty much sucks with guns she is actually incredably fast but only has one action, and our mage was left there standing in several fights not doing anything at all. That is why we changed it from -2, to -5 which seems to be working well. Very fast wired characters still have a tendency to get off at least 2 attacks before your common ganger gets to go..

Now the chart above looks to work pretty good. I might show it to my players and see what they think about that.
Brahm
QUOTE (cybertrucker @ Sep 28 2006, 09:02 AM)
We are going to stick to the -5 per initiative per pass... it seems the most realistic

By-in-large Realismô tends to suck. That is why the mages were 'whining'. smile.gif

But let us look at the canon system a little closer. First off it is fairly rare for a lower IP character to go before a higher IP character, and usually involves spending Edge. Next once you are into the flow of Combat Turn to Combat Turn those 4 IP people are still taking 3 actions before the 1 IP person takes their's. Then you combine those two, and a smart player with a high IP character that gets the low IP character to 'waste' their first IP and you still get the flying around kicking the crap out of people effect. In spades.

In the end having even one more IP than the other person is very powerful. More powerful than it was in SR3.
Wiseman
QUOTE
Next once you are into the flow of Combat Turn to Combat Turn those 4 IP people are still taking 3 actions before the 1 IP person takes their's.


Nah, would make sense but this is not the case. All characters act on IP 1 (or the first pass), then the extras are added. See RAW under combat and initiative.

Surprise rounds and high initiative characters are deadly to low initiative characters without adjustments.

Any turn based system seems to break down when compared to reality, but lets be honest, a turn is only 3 seconds long.

When you look at a round as a whole it evens out. In three seconds I the 1IP guy shoots once (maybe twice), you shoot first and 3 more times than him. No need to further distinguish who gets all their IP's first as this would amount to improved reflexes being a necessity rather than just an advantage.

The current system might not always be the most realistic, but it IS balanced. You can't allow Higher IP guys to take all their passes first because thats not just initiative (read fast reflexes like drawing on someone) but the ability to actually do more based on faster cognition reflexes.

Example, my mage and a street sam face off and both go for our guns (for simplicity), he draws first and fires first, i'm slower on the draw and fire back at nearly same time (were talking micro seconds here), but he fires twice more and then reloads in the next two seconds while i'm still trying to draw a bead on him again.

Compare that to, Me and the sam face off again, he pulls out the gun shoots me 6 times (SA) and reloads, I never get my gun out. Seems kinda realistic for a fast guy but balance wise I wouldn't even sit down to play.

And think of the reverse, a boosted mage slinging 3 spells before the slow schmo can figure out what happend, now thats WAY overpowered.

Don't think of IP's as initiative (they're seperate for a reason). Initiative is who goes first, extra IP's represent the true balance benefit of any augmented reflexes and the ability to squeeze in a few more shots or whatever in those slim seconds.
Brahm
QUOTE (Wiseman)
QUOTE
Next once you are into the flow of Combat Turn to Combat Turn those 4 IP people are still taking 3 actions before the 1 IP person takes their's.


Nah, would make sense but this is not the case. All characters act on IP 1 (or the first pass), then the extras are added. See RAW under combat and initiative.

Fast Guy IP 1, Slow Guy IP 1, Fast Guy IP 2, Fast Guy IP 3, Fast Guy IP 4, Fast Guy IP 1, Slow Guy IP 1, ....

Oops, sorry miscounted. Four actions there. I read the rules. I've lived the rules. They hurt, and hurt badly, when you have a low IP. When you have a higher IP it rocks. You don't need to take multiple actions before the other guy to have this happen. When you torque it up so that the higher IP gets multiple actions before the slower person you basically turn combat into a cardboard target shooting range for the higher IP characters. They don't even need to finesse to get to that extended range of uninterupted actions.
James McMurray
And it's even worse in surprise situations, as that's now 4+ people that can't dodge instead of 2.
Wiseman
QUOTE
Oops, sorry miscounted. Four actions there. I read the rules. I've lived the rules. They hurt, and hurt badly, when you have a low IP. When you have a higher IP it rocks. You don't need to take multiple actions before the other guy to have this happen. When you torque it up so that the higher IP gets multiple actions before the slower person you basically turn combat into a cardboard target shooting range for the higher IP characters. They don't even need to finesse to get to that extended range of uninterupted actions.


though you said it better, this was exactly my point, not sure why you quoted me. All characters regardless of IP's get to act on the first IP (by order of initiative) and then extra IP's are added.

And I also agree that its more than enough of an advantage without having high reflex guys taking all or most of their IP's before a 1IP guy would get one.
James McMurray
I believe the disconnect ccame because of thise phrase in Brahm's first post:

QUOTE
once you are into the flow


By that he meant "once you've started cycling in rounds" not "the first round of combat." Your response seemed to indicate that you didn't catch that nuance, and his followup was an explanation, not an argument.

Basically you're saying the same thing with difference emphasis (1st round vs. subsequent rounds).
cybertrucker
ok I am going to take the characters in my game. our Wired weapons specialist has an initiative of 9, he usually goes on about 12 or 13 on average, the slowest person in the group is our mage with an initiative of 7 and he normally goes on about 9 or 10 on average, even on a 13 if you subtract 5 from that it is an 8 meaning that the mage is going to get to act before our wired weapons specialist gets a chance to go on his 2nd IP...Whats funny is that our technomancer is actually the fastest when it comes to initiative (she is more perceptive) she has an initiative of an 11, but her body is not able to move as fast as the weapons specialist who gets 2 IPs, because she is not wired. therefore while she normally goes first she just isnt as fast physically.

The characters are supposed to be extraordinary, able to do things above and beyond that of your normal shmoes, If they are faced off against your normal thugs with say an initiative of 5 or 6 I dont see a big problem with letting them squeeze an extra action in. It makes the players feel more heroic or extraordinary, Granted there will be times that they fight against other extraordinary people (wired or augmented) that will bring more of a challenge to the group.

The numbers listed above are on average occasions sometimes yes they will get a higher initiative roll, but thats not always the case.

As for enhanced reflexes being a huge thing.. why do you think that the essense cost is so high on it. I guess I just like the fact that if someone is moving faster than humanly possible through either cyber or magic, then it should seem like they are. Watch the Matrix a couple of times and how they move in that, and thats what I think of when I imagine someone who is augmented to be superfast, heck it even says the worlds seems to move in slow motion compared people that are wired, in the book.
James McMurray
QUOTE
if someone is moving faster than humanly possible through either cyber or magic, then it should seem like they are.


For most people it does seem that way, just by using the rules in the book. You're of course free to house rul it if you like, but there was a reason initiative changed in SR3 and subsequently SR4, and a reason almost everyone embraced it.
lorechaser
In a game like this, you can build characters that will completely break the system.

Int 5, rea 5, wired 2, reaction 3.

That's 15 init to start. 5 more on average from rolls. So 20. Even your fast example characters are looking at 12. So my 20 init gives me two actions before most everyone else has gone, and 3 before some of the slower characters.

And while that may be great for the Matrixy feel that this guy wants, for everyone out there trying to make a balanced character, or not entirely focused on init, it sucks.

Game balance is looking at it from everyone's point of view, not just the sammie's. wink.gif

It goes back to that idea that realistic isn't always fun. wink.gif
James McMurray
QUOTE (lorechaser)
It goes back to that idea that realistic isn't always fun. wink.gif

Isn't that why we're gamers?
ShadowDragon
I wouldn't play in your game. Too harsh. And I hate it when GMs houserule for "realism" and throw game balance out the window. Even sammies get the short end of the stick. What if they have wound penalties or roll poorly? If they have 0 Init on the 3rd and 4th pass, their Wired 2 or Synaptic 3 becomes useless.
Teulisch
lets not forget spending edge to get an extra IP. Mr. Lucky with edge 8 could be VERY fast for a very short time... especialy if he used combat drugs.

i think you need to keep the 1, 2, 3, 4 progression because that wayadding IP from edge gets LESS confusing- and dont forget the complexities of holding your action!

If i have 1 IP, i can hold my action and go on any phase i want... if you mess with phase order, can i still hold my action, and go EARLIER? with @ ip if i hold action 1 until 2 or later i lose it... but 2 i can hold until 4 if i want. holding actions makes messsing with sequence messy.

and then theres the problem of making things complex to the point of confusion- people will forget when its their turn.
hobgoblin
hmm, if one realy want to be diffrent one could go for a system like feng shui uses. basicly, give each kind of action group a cost, thats substracted from the initative result. IP will modify said cost.

then its just a matter of counting down.

if someone holds their action, its like substracting 1 until they perform a action, and then move along like normal.

another option is to give high IP people a change to interrupt someone else's action as many times in a turn as they number of IP's.
deek
Or you could just use the RAW eek.gif
cybertrucker
QUOTE (ShadowDragon @ Sep 28 2006, 02:14 PM)
I wouldn't play in your game. Too harsh. And I hate it when GMs houserule for "realism" and throw game balance out the window. Even sammies get the short end of the stick. What if they have wound penalties or roll poorly? If they have 0 Init on the 3rd and 4th pass, their Wired 2 or Synaptic 3 becomes useless.



Actually the group seems to like this house rule for the most part the Mage is even happy now that I took it to -5 per IP instead of -2... The group says they feel more like amped up runners than everyday peeps this way. Ohh and being at 0 or below doesnt matter. We are all adults in our game and know basic math well enough to go into the negatives. So you do not lose your actions by going to 0 or below. If your wound modifiers take you down on the initiative it effects all IPs so if I had 2 actions and went on 15 and 10, and took enough woulds to get me to -1 on initiative I now would go on 14 and 9 not to hard.

Anyway its not to bad of a system and the group is happy with it. Not just our street sam/weapons specialist really, who is not actually the fastest in the group but everyone.
Brahm
QUOTE (cybertrucker @ Sep 28 2006, 03:50 PM)
...the Mage is even happy now that I took it to -5 per IP instead of -2...

If someone was sodomizing you [EDIT: against your will] with a weathered, splintering wooden baseball bat you'd probably express some sort of gratitude too if they stopped to sand it smooth before resuming the sodomizing.

Editted for clarity. nyahnyah.gif
James McMurray
Now you're just making unfounded assumptions about other posters. Unless of course you have splintered sodomy knowledge of cybertrucker, in which case nevermind.
cybertrucker
waaaaa he hurt my feelings cool.gif LOL jk
ReallyBored
QUOTE (cybertrucker)
ok I am going to take the characters in my game. our Wired weapons specialist has an initiative of 9, he usually goes on about 12 or 13 on average, the slowest person in the group is our mage with an initiative of 7 and he normally goes on about 9 or 10 on average, even on a 13 if you subtract 5 from that it is an 8 meaning that the mage is going to get to act before our wired weapons specialist gets a chance to go on his 2nd IP...Whats funny is that our technomancer is actually the fastest when it comes to initiative (she is more perceptive) she has an initiative of an 11, but her body is not able to move as fast as the weapons specialist who gets 2 IPs, because she is not wired. therefore while she normally goes first she just isnt as fast physically.

The characters are supposed to be extraordinary, able to do things above and beyond that of your normal shmoes, If they are faced off against your normal thugs with say an initiative of 5 or 6 I dont see a big problem with letting them squeeze an extra action in. It makes the players feel more heroic or extraordinary, Granted there will be times that they fight against other extraordinary people (wired or augmented) that will bring more of a challenge to the group.

The numbers listed above are on average occasions sometimes yes they will get a higher initiative roll, but thats not always the case.

As for enhanced reflexes being a huge thing.. why do you think that the essense cost is so high on it. I guess I just like the fact that if someone is moving faster than humanly possible through either cyber or magic, then it should seem like they are. Watch the Matrix a couple of times and how they move in that, and thats what I think of when I imagine someone who is augmented to be superfast, heck it even says the worlds seems to move in slow motion compared people that are wired, in the book.

So I'm assuming that the mage goes on 9 only, so that wired isn't a complete ripoff.

Giving a generic mook Init 6, that means you have, on average:
Weaps 12/7
Techno 14
Mage 9
Mook 8

So order goes Techno, Weaps, Mage, Mook, Weaps

Under RAW, it's...IP 1: Techno, Weaps, Mage, Mook -- IP2: Weaps

On average, the wired guy will get his second action before the mook only if the mook has Init 5 or less (depending on how ties go). In the mooks section, only the PR 0 and PR 1 groups have Init <6.
Garrowolf
I prefer an alternate system that slows street sammies way down and gets rid of the blink fast mages.
Characters get 1 complex action a combat turn. Period. End of story.
Characters with extra IPs get extra simple actions. This means that yes a character can hose off lots of bullets but he won't be running that much faster and there will never be multiple spells per round. You take your IPs the same but as sets of single actions instead. If you do a complex action then you don't get those extra IPs. This is based on the idea that extra IPs are based on high reacting characters - NOT speedsters! It is basically showing one guy shooting everything in the room and not moving much. It keeps the Sammies from dominating everything by allowing the GM to spread out the targets so each person can go after a few without the sammie killing a few, moving, killing, moving, and killing again.
I also moved unarmed and melee to simple actions.
The other thing I added was that you could fire semi auto weapons burst fire based on the number of simple actions you wanted to use. Each one added +1 damage or +1 to hit depending on the burst type. This way you could let the sammie roll twice for two targets instead of rolling 6 times for shooting two targets three times each.
I allowed melee and unarmed to work the same way. This would be rapid punches or flashing blades.
For burst fire weapons you can spend extra simple actions to reduce the recoil penalties because you can react fast enough to reaim each time. -1 rc per simple action.
You can also take communications based free actions without using up your free action. You can take a number of free actions equal to your IPs (not including the communications action) without going into your simple actions. You can do this even on a complex action.
Ex: 3 IPs would give you:
1) 1 comm action, 3 free, and 6 simple
2) 1 comm action, 3 free, and 1 complex

make sense?
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