Hello all,

Now that the fourth version of shadowrun is out, I have a question.

Will the earlier version become available to the public?

I am referring to the second and first version.

I work in China and well, it's pretty much impossible to get a hand on the older versions.

What do you think?

SoP.

Right now the third edition is available for purchase as a PDF from several vendors. RPGNow(?), Studio 2 Publishing, Battlecorps, Drive Thru RPG. If you go to the official SR webpage (www.shadowrunrpg.com) there's a set of links on the left hand side that will take you to them.

As far as oder editions, I'm not sure if anything is available for purchase at the moment, but I highly doube that any of it will be entering the public domain any time soon.

I recommend Ebay for OOP stuff, frankly. 90% of my nearly complete SR collection was purchased there. (Which reminds me, I need to get searching again for what I need.)

Yeah, buying them from ebay.com should work. Online stores also usually ship worldwide. Plenty of the 3rd Edition books should still be available.

Bye
Thanee

Does Stiggybaby.com ship there?

It would appear that they ship internationally.

Thanks for your replies.

The thing is with China, it a second world country (deeply influenced by communism in a rather bad way).

So economically, I am rich (for chinese standards) and extremely poor if compared to the U.S. dollar. This is why I was looking for older editions without paying anything. I hope they make it public one day.

I don't see what harm that would do as they are not published anymore.

I wish there was an abandonware concept for books.

Since I'm talking about free books. There's plenty of them at RPGnow.

I don't know if you've heard about Ars Magica? Well it's a roleplaying system completely free. This isn't your wannabe amateur stuff either, we're talking pro here.

Would it be bad it Shadowrun 1st edition and 2nd edition would be available to the public? I completely understand for the 3rd edition as it's still on sale but the older ones... why not? I could even see some positive impact for publishers. This could get players to want to invest in the more recent version.

So my point is: Why not?

“You have to look at this from more of an economic standpoint. The overriding question above all else is: Why?”

Ok, let’s look at it at yet another point of view. I don’t want to get in a debate but after reading your post I just couldn't resist.

Well, I think your argumentation is back to a question of perspective, the whole glass half-full half-empty paradigm. You ask yourself, “Why?” and I ask “Why not?”

Why wouldn't they? What would they have to gain you ask? I say: What would they have to lose?

“What would the publishers gain from giving away the old books? Maybe a few sales of the new stuff, from people that pick it up & say "Hey, this 1st Edition is cool...I wonder what's changed in 4th Edition?" But would it be enough to bother?”

Yes, I think it would. I respect your disagreement on this, but look at it this way: “If one (me) person has tried one older version and then got the new version, can we safely assume that I am not the only one on planet Earth who thinks the same way?”

Let me give you an example. I’ve been playing AD&D since the first edition. What got me to buy the second edition? What got me to get the third? Simple. I tried the first edition and wanted to find out about the other edition. So should we bother? There is absolutely no hesitation in my mind that we should.

A few sales you say? Think about demos (for software). Those partial software that hundreds of thousands find on the net. What about 30 day trials? Do you know anyone on this planet, who has the internet who has never downloaded and used a trial? Do they all purchase the full product? No of course not. But does it increase the sales? Definitely. Why else would the producer do it??

”Plus, giving it away would more or less kill the market of any possible reprint. Who knows, maybe one day we'll see the Grand Shadowrun Compendium, 1st-10th Edition all in one faux dragonscale bound book! Or conversions of the old adventures into the current rules, old gear to new stats, etc.”

But even then we’re talking about conversions, not the originals. And as far as seeing this happening… Let’s be honest here… How likely is that? Come on, think about it. Look inside yourself, do you truly think that this is ever likely to happen? As it be done before? The conversions were already done in the following editions. Let me add something else. Is it possible nowadays to find people who still play AD&D 1st edition? No way. No way I tell you. Is it possible to find people who play 1st and 2nd ed.? Extremely unlikely. EXTREMELY unlikely.

“Plus, maybe one of the legal buffs around here can answer this...who owns the rights to the old books now? Wizkids/Fanpro? FASA? Microsoft? o.O”

I have no idea. Who has the license to Super Mario Bros 1 for the nes. Nintendo probably. Are they going bankrupt because it is being used free of charge by some old fans. No. Not at all. Should they throw a tantrum at that? No point.

The reason why I replied to this is because of the mentality of: “We have to get something in return…” individualistic attitude gets to me every once in a while. I don’t remember the name of the creator of “Day of the Tentacle”, an excellent game for PC. But I remember he said something in an interview: “I’m not making any money from that game anymore, I’d be happy if the world could get to experience the game I created.” I think Richard Garriott, creator of the Ultima series, said something similar.

So my point is: “You’re getting nothing from it, and you could potentially get something out of it and make other people happy and share a great product, so why not?”

I thank you for your input but I your argumentation left me unconvinced.

My question remains the same: “Why not?”

“You have to look at this from more of an economic standpoint. The overriding question above all else is: Why?”

Ok, let’s look at it at yet another point of view. I don’t want to get in a debate but after reading your post I just couldn't resist.

Well, I think your argumentation is back to a question of perspective, the whole glass half-full half-empty paradigm. You ask yourself, “Why?” and I ask “Why not?”

Why wouldn't they? What would they have to gain you ask? I say: What would they have to lose?

“What would the publishers gain from giving away the old books? Maybe a few sales of the new stuff, from people that pick it up & say "Hey, this 1st Edition is cool...I wonder what's changed in 4th Edition?" But would it be enough to bother?”

Yes, I think it would. I respect your disagreement on this, but look at it this way: “If one (me) person has tried one older version and then got the new version, can we safely assume that I am not the only one on planet Earth who thinks the same way?”

Let me give you an example. I’ve been playing AD&D since the first edition. What got me to buy the second edition? What got me to get the third? Simple. I tried the first edition and wanted to find out about the other edition. So should we bother? There is absolutely no hesitation in my mind that we should.

A few sales you say? Think about demos (for software). Those partial software that hundreds of thousands find on the net. What about 30 day trials? Do you know anyone on this planet, who has the internet who has never downloaded and used a trial? Do they all purchase the full product? No of course not. But does it increase the sales? Definitely. Why else would the producer do it??

”Plus, giving it away would more or less kill the market of any possible reprint. Who knows, maybe one day we'll see the Grand Shadowrun Compendium, 1st-10th Edition all in one faux dragonscale bound book! Or conversions of the old adventures into the current rules, old gear to new stats, etc.”

But even then we’re talking about conversions, not the originals. And as far as seeing this happening… Let’s be honest here… How likely is that? Come on, think about it. Look inside yourself, do you truly think that this is ever likely to happen? As it be done before? The conversions were already done in the following editions. Let me add something else. Is it possible nowadays to find people who still play AD&D 1st edition? No way. No way I tell you. Is it possible to find people who play 1st and 2nd ed.? Extremely unlikely. EXTREMELY unlikely.

“Plus, maybe one of the legal buffs around here can answer this...who owns the rights to the old books now? Wizkids/Fanpro? FASA? Microsoft? o.O”

I have no idea. Who has the license to Super Mario Bros 1 for the nes. Nintendo probably. Are they going bankrupt because it is being used free of charge by some old fans. No. Not at all. Should they throw a tantrum at that? No point.

The reason why I replied to this is because of the mentality of: “We have to get something in return…” individualistic attitude gets to me every once in a while. I don’t remember the name of the creator of “Day of the Tentacle”, an excellent game for PC. But I remember he said something in an interview: “I’m not making any money from that game anymore, I’d be happy if the world could get to experience the game I created.” I think Richard Garriott, creator of the Ultima series, said something similar.

So my point is: “You’re getting nothing from it, and you could potentially get something out of it and make other people happy and share a great product, so why not?”

I thank you for your input but I your argumentation left me unconvinced.

My question remains the same: “Why not?”

Calm down tiger. I'm just stating my point. It's ok if we think differently, that tends to happen a lot in real life.

You're entitled to your opinion. I could reply to this and you would reply and so on and so forth but we'd be going in circles.

I'll stick to my belief for the time being.

SoP.

I think maybe we're just seeing the mental shift between someone spending time in a Communist versus a Capitalist society, to be quite blunt about it. He says "I want something, why shouldn't they share what they have, if it won't hurt them?" We say "They're a business, why should they share what they have if it won't help them?"

Just a difference in perception and expectation.

Hardly, Crit. There are plenty of "red blooded Americans" that have similar mindsets. Oh, unless of course, that makes us "un-American". It's an old debate, a wretchedly old argument, etc, blah blah.

Seeker, I feel your pain. I was a Chinese linguist in the Army for six years, lots of study of language, culture, and I used to keep up with the more macro side of things (but now....LAZINESS!!!! woot!). I have friends that now teach English in China and Korea, and it's tough that you can be making "millions" in local currency...and have to save for three months to buy something from home.

That said, I've got some stuff you might want to check out.

Icar is a free, fully supported, constantly developed Sci-fi roleplaying game. I'm looking at running it soon-ish (maybe late this year, early next year) and it looks really cool. I can't speak to the mechanics, but the concept is awesome.

A compendium of free RPGs. Lots of stuff, some still around, some not. I've downloaded around 30-40 games from sites like the following examples, and they range from terrible with a decent idea, all the way to holy crap why aren't they selling this.

http://www.homebrew.net/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=...n=Main.FreeRPGs

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/freerp...s/fulllist.html

http://www.freeroleplay.org/ (I don't personally agree with their view that "all" roleplaying games should be free, but they do end up with some good stuff because of it.)

Capitalist pig-dogs.

Truth be told, I'm not anywhere near "communist" in mindset.

I believe Fan Pro owns full rights to old versions of SR. I don't see any reason to release SR1 for free because then people like me who are cheap are more likely to play SR1 for free than continue buying new books. I *CERTAINLY* wouldn't make SR2 free because it's close enough to SR3 that there'd be no reason for people like me to continue collecting SR3 stuff (which is still in print, even if nothing new is coming out).

So I do honestly think they'd lose sales.

That said, there IS a free 'quick start guide' for SR3 you can download. This covers the basic rules and some of the equipment. You're welcome to download that and use it at your leisure.

Oh no wait!

I’ve been in China for 8 months, I haven’t been converted to communism!

I use to have the exact same mindset before I left home. Yes, I am one of those left wing idealist.

Tekumel seems to believe I think capitalism is “evil” and bad. But no, I don’t think it is at all! In fact, I would choose capitalism over communism any day of the week!

Here’s the nuance. Capitalism is a good system in itself. What DOES suck however is those who apply it irresponsibly.

It hurts when I read something like: “Yeah, we’re Americans so we think that way and we all pray to capitalism.” I dare to hope it’s not true. That would be a very communist mindset actually! To be honest, I’ve been on the road for ten years, and I always had a hard time getting along with Americans. Maybe it’s the culture which seems (apparently according to what you’re saying) so focused on the individual. But selfishness exists in all countries, even in China.

Actually, this is quite off topic, but as I recall there was a period in American history when there was witchhunt for commies wasn’t there? Which president was that? I think a lot of the anti-commies propaganda still remains well anchored in many minds as the ultimate evil.

Actually, I was reading a book about the father of optimism, an American. The book was printed In the 50s if I recall correctly. Well, the guy was really positive. But I remember him saying something along the line of: “Sure communist are evil, but we have to show them the way.” Even this so-called optimist was completely brainwashed.

Eidolon, I do thank you for the links. I will definitely check them out and add them to my collection. So how’s your 普通话then?

And you know what, Tekumel, for the record:

“Comparing a software demo vs. full version to Shadowrun 1st Edition vs. 4th Edition makes no sense.

A software demo gives you time to test out the program, WITH UP TO DATE FEATURES. If you took somebody that played a few sessions of Shadowrun 1st, and said "OK, now we're going to play this updated version.", they'd be more lost than a nun in a whorehouse.”

The message I was trying to get across was the try before you buy philosophy. This is why I used the comparison with demos.

“It's not likely. But you're using self-serving logic here. It doesn't matter whether or not they ever want to make money off of the material ever again. It's the copyright holder's legal right to do whatever they want with their intellectual property, including lock it away in a vault never to see the light of day again.”

Thank you for admitting that. Yes, of course I am using self-serving logic here. Why would I use logic to my detriment. Do you?

Yes, it’s their right. They could lock it away. Just like you could keep the cure for cancer to yourself if you discovered it, but what kind of person would that make you, I wonder…

You mentioned me not making sense earlier. Well, let’s go along the same train of thought. Would it make sense to lock something away just for absolutely no reason?

I don’t know you Tekumel, but could I safely assume that if you had something in your possession that you would not lose by giving away to others you would have the generosity to share it with your friends? Can I make such an assumption?

So no, It doesn’t make sense to “lock something up” for the principle of it. Not in my book. Maybe it does in yours.

“Abandonware is a bullshit concept made up by people trying to legitimize piracy. It doesn't matter if the game hasn't been published in 20 years. As long as the copyright is maintained, IT'S STILL THEIR PROPERTY. It doesn't matter how much you wish they'd be like this writer, or that software company...ultimately the decision to make or not make available an item that is out of use is still their right.”

But can you prove that or is that only your opinion? Because if it’s only your opinion, well I say: “No, it’s not.” And then you say: “Yes it is” Ad nauseum.

But as much as you think that it’s bullshit, how do you explain that some talented producers and writers are totally up for it? Could it be possible that it’s not bullshit after all? But I can’t prove it’s not bullshit either. I just think your statement is a bit too much.

“And christ, if you know where to find emulators & games, I'd think you'd have the know-how to find where to find old books. Do I encourage it? No. Do I agree with it? No. Am I naive enough to think it doesn't happen? No. I've found PDFs of probably every Shadowrun book imaginable searching for game related stuff, I'm sure you could too.”

To be honest, I don’t. I have no idea how to do it. I don’t know how you’ve managed, you must have much better connection or know-how for piracy that I could ever dream of. =-0

“EDIT: Welcome to Capitalism 101. It's a bitch, ain't it?”

Ah c’mon now, no need to patronize me. You’re not giving yourself more credibility. It’s not as simple as that and your intelligent enough to know it. See further up for my take on capitalism.

“EDIT #2: On the topic of "abandonware"...you never know where an old game is going to pop up. I mean think about it, those cheesy controllers that plug into your TV? I GUARANTEE the manufacturers of those are still paying a licensing fee to the original developers. And here's a random game revival...guess what's downloadable from XBox Live for the XBox 360? DOOM. FUCKING DOOM. Not Doom 3, or even Doom 2. I'm talking IDDQD Doom.”

It’s downloadable, ok, but do you have to pay for it?

I’ll actually play the devil advocate here to prove my good will.

There is one instance of something you could’ve used to prove your point, but you didn’t. Gamebooks. Remember those fighting fantasy gamebooks, I think nobody could’ve guessed they would ever be back on the market. I’m not sure who bought the license, I think it’s Wizard of the Coast (who else). But they're definitely out there now.

"Lock me!" cried the thread in anguish.

Seriously, did you start the thread to ask about cheap alternatives for the low-payed role player, or to troll your political views through the River Dumpshock to see who'd bite?

What does it mean to "troll" something? I'm not familiar with that.

But yes, I think there's no point in continuing this any further.

EDIT: Ah ok, I found my definition.

People who delight in upsetting other Internet users are known as 'trolls'. This article examines the phenomenon.

Yes, I am evil and take pleasure in causing mental anguish in others. Nah, not really. I think I was looking for a debate actually, and I got one.

Ok, fine. I'm a troll. So I am.

Do you feel any better?

Who's forcing you to participate though?

That's something I just don't get. You get a guy who starts name calling on the net. But he steps right in and participates in what he thinks off topic and trollish in nature.

The topic doesn't suit your taste? Then why the f*** did you post twice in it?

You don't have to read, you don't have to post, you don't have to participate. I know I'm not asking for your opinion. You want to participate? Fine. But don't go kidding yourself that this makes you any less of a troll than I am.

Got it?

I have teh biggest interweb nutzzz!!!

Seriously, the biggest problem isn't that you came here looking for a debate, but rather that you started off by asking for information, were provided said information, and used that to kick off a political soapbox session for no apparent reason other than to start an argument, which you later state openly.

Cool, sarcasm!

You're right. I'm a troll with some massive testicles. Anything else?

Well, I didn't intend to. It's not like it was planned or anything. I get wound up sometimes (about capitalism). I'm sure there's thing in this world that you worked up too.

But let me tell you something, Eidolon.

The "argument" was productive. I've actually changed my mind about a lot of things about abandonware. I've learned quite a lot from other people's opinion. Espicially KarmaInferno.

1: The edit button is your friend.

2: Tell anyone anything you like, nothing's stopping you. You are, however, being a total jackass to people that attempted to help you out.

3:

As I said I'm sorry things the way they did. That's all there is to it.

I apologized to Critias in a PM, for my reaction. He decided to ignore it and bash me further. That's his choice. If he can't accept an apology, that's his fucking problem and I'll leave it at that (see, I'm saving my *).

As far as your judging and patronizing Eidolon, pfff, what can I say. I got tired of your sermons a long time ago.

Seeker,

The issue here is certainly not about political views, the main difference between you and Critias, eidolon, kage, nezumi, etc is plain and simple:

Some years of dumpshock experience.


Relax, take your time, lurk a while. Whatever you say, there´s always a chance that it will be set on fire by a relentless horde of nitpickers. (Who might have a point, after all)


BTW, i think your thoughts on the free release of this and that are a bit naive.

Will

Nah, I doubt that. Next we'll probably see works produced for a corporate entity measure the author's lifetime by the lifetime of the corporate entity—that allows things produced by individuals to pass into public domain for plundering, while protecting the Mouse.

~J

Admin post: I think this thread has gone on long enough. It was fun and vaguely on topic until insults started flying. Insults/flames via PM? Not cool.