It's a pretty simple question, which makes me feel a little bad about posting a topic for it so simply, but it is a question, and it's good to get opinions and/or answers.

Improved ability is obviously not allowed for a group in particular, but if you take a skill group, can you take improved ability for a skill within it without messing things up? In your opinion of it, would you allow it (though it will most likely make it impossible to train the skill group in game later by the cheaper amount), would you modify how it applies at that point, or just say 'no, get the skill separately'?

edit-

And while we're at it, I'll ask about Improved senses too: Just what qualifies as an enhancement you can't take because it requires technology? Obviously, radio stuff doesn't matter, but would that complicate ultrasound at all?

You pay 30BP to buy firearms skillgroup. Everything in that group is now 3/6.
You pay 10BP for Aptitude (Pistols). Every skill in the group is still at 3, only pistols has a max of 7 now.
Everything above is legit for char creation.

Aptitude doesnt raise your skill by one when you buy it, just raises the max by one.

Edit: Your "improved senses" is just Aptitude (Perception). What you are asking about sounds more like Specializing in vision, hearing, scent, feeling, or taste.

I would allow it, but it would immediately break up the skill group.

Bye
Thanee

I agree with Konsaki, aptitude simply means that this person is CAPABLE of achieving astonishing prowess in a certain skill someday, maybe, if they put the massive time, effort and Karma into it.

The firearms skill group is basically the same as having the skills themselves at the same level individually, it just denotes synergy in the use and training process.

I'm not sure where you guys came up with aptitude with what Cold-Dragon said.... He is talking about adept powers not positive qualities.

As for adding Improved Ability to skill groups, Now while Improved Ability adds to the skill it is not the skill. You can lose the skill bonus in a low/no mana area so by saying it would break a skill group someone could just say they train in a toxic area or something so they can just train up the group. Besides, if you want to read the rules as written (like that ever happens) breaking skill groups only happens when you specialize in a skill or rase one independantly from the rest. Reflex recorders and such cyber/bio does not break groups.

As for improves senses: We play adept powers as if you can find it in nature you can get it. Bats have ultrasound so you just need to come up with a cost. Our group uses .5 points, .25 for ultrasound hearing and .25 for ultrasound voice. Now you don't need to move your lips to use this as you can subvocalize. (the sound comes from your neck or whatever)

Regarding "natural" enhancements, The rule really isn't that much of a restriction.

Elephant fish, flys, and possibly Electric eels have a sort of electro-magnetic field sense.

pigeons contain a natural compass.

Various spiders can sense people's approach through vibrations in the ground

Some snakes can navigate through thermal imaging that does not involve their eyes.

Some birds of Prey can sense distant air currents. No I have no clue how they do that (Handy for air pilots, I guess...)

Technomancers have a natural perception of wireless signals. (Remember humans are animals and it's NOT magical.)

Ok, Kidding about the last one...

Yes, its not much of a rule its more of can you explain it to your GM well enough that he will let you use it. And can you both agree on a point cost.

As for eels, hammer head sharks and such having an electro-magnetic sense... they can read the neural currents in animals (and one would assume other EM fields. wonder if anyone has put said animal in a tank with random EM noise and see what happens) there might be a power already to simulate this (dont have my books handy to check) if not, make it up. As long as the point cost = the powers effect (read-- BALANCED) who cares...

Pigeon adepts would have direction sense... .25 points...

Spiders have combat sense (.5 per lev) or danger sense (.5 per lev) if it even exists anymore... dont remember seeing it... You know... Spidey senses tingling!
Snakes with thermal sense pits... does it really matter if its pits or in the eye, it (the thermal sense) is still blinded with thermal smoke, a hot day, whatever...

The birds of prey... could just use improved perception (skill boost) power or improved touch sense power and just increase the cost to have it sense air currents out to magic meters (although you could put a geas on it "only to detect air currents" and lower the cost)

You do have a point with the last one and the only thing I can say to counter it is the BBB states that TM's cant use(read cast or have adept powers) magic and Awakened cant use TM powers.

One of the pregen character, the orc gunslinger adept, has the firearm skill group AND the improved ability (pistol)...I would say yes, you can.

I'm so playing a spider adept next game. If people can play lesbian catgirl robot centaurs, I can play a spider....

If you can make it work within the rules and your GM aproves... More power to you... Except for the web slinging you can make spiderman with the current adept powers... Heck, if your GM lets you, come up with a cost for web slinging...
Web line: 1pt./lev Gives you a web line at magic x level meters
Web net: .5pt./lev (must have web line at at least lev 1) gives a net with a str. at 1/2 magic x lev (max lev is web line lev)
Yea, they might be lower cost but I'm at work without power references to go off of.

Improved ability mentioned adding to the rating, hence why I asked. If it magically adds however...I guess that isn't so much a problem.

Now the other tricky question: If it doesn't officially alter the rating as far as skills are concerned, would that mean that improving the skill requires karma as per the rating without the improved ability then?

*finds himself a few high background areas for training purposes*

I dont know what the official ruling on that is. IIRC from SR3 adept improved skill points added to the skill for the karma cost.
My group plays it as the base skill rating is the karma cost and bonus dice (from adept powers or cyber/bio dont count)
But then again we also do the same thing with attributes, a troll with a body of 3(+5for being a troll, could be less, I dont remember) costs the same karma to raise one level as it does for a human because they are both the average for their species
I say talk it over with your GM, if he does not think it is to munchy base karma off the skill without adept enhancement.

I would think that the EM sense of sharks in a person would drive them nuts in a city. If my character encountered anyone like that he would have so much fun just turning off and on the lights!

I believe there has been research on something called electromagnetic hypersensitivity which might be relevant to the subject of sharks and EM sense.

Unless I'm mistaken, I think the errata was quite clear in that the Imprived ability power adds to the skill rating, instead of giving a dice pool bonus. This explicitly means that the skill rating is higher in terms of raising it. I'd say that it breaks the skill group.

It also means that much like the case of increased phyisical attribute, it is rather silly to buy any Increased Ability ranks for a skill you haven't already maxed.

Improved attribute specifically calls out that it costs double to exceed the racial max. So as much as I think it's a bad rule, I would say the raw is that Improved Ability adds directly in as well, in terms of Karma.

Well, I can always get the improved ability later, heh.

Good information so far though.