I was wondering if anyone had any ideas for a martial arts system for 4th ed.

Personally I hated the maneuvers in 3rd ed. I would prefer a series of skills which would cover the general effect as opposed to each maneuver listed.

I was thinking sort of an effects based game so that you would need rules for individual martial arts. (ie no Judo skill but maybe a Grappling skill)

I wanted it to stay quick like the rest of the system but cover more then I punch/kick you for more damage.

Any thoughts?

Personally, as I don't have very detailed knowledge of martial arts, I'd keep it simple. I'd have the character specialize his/her unarmed combat skill, define a set of basic maneuvers (punches, kicks, blocks, throws, grappling, etc) and gain their +2 bonus to those maneuvers. It would be easy, of course, for them to simply just use their defined maneuvers all the time, but there should be times where it's not possible (like grappling vs. hand to hand combat, or only when blocking, not attacking, etc.).

Dread Polack

It's going to have to be complicated to be useful, though.

I'm horribly frustrated by Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts). I think that is the gimpiest excuse for a specialization I've ever seen. Because, seriously, when would "Martial Arts" not apply? Why not simply say "Unarmed combat is at +2 dice for 2 bp"?

I tried to at least tone it down for my character, by selecting a specific art, and getting a general list of the techniques they use. However, since any decent martial art has provisions for punching, kicking, grappling and disarming, that's still effectively the same thing.

I have a vague system in mind where you purchase Unarmed Combat as normal, and then each point can be used to buy two points of subsytems. Specialization would apply to one specific subsystem, like "grappling" "disarming" "close combat" "parrying" "non-lethal" "submission".

That's still not great, but a bit of an improvement.

In an ideal world, you would have a manuevers system in place.

Honestly, unarmed combat gets the shaft in SR (which is really okay, otherwise you end up like d20 modern, where people forgo guns for fists), and it could use some punching up (ha!).

The fact that it takes a complex action to make an unarmed attack suggests that they should be at least a bit more flexible than ranged, which has SA/BF/FA and the complexities therein....

Isn't Arsenal supposed to have updated rules for martial arts?

Thought I am impatient, I think I will wait for Arsenal, too laze to work on a set of rules that I may have to throw out in a month or two

Hopefully they'll clarify that the +2 specialization bonus only applies when using maneuvers specific to your chosen MA, require specialization to use MA, and all specializations in multiple MAs.

You don't really need a system. Any practical MA is going to be well rounded, maybe with a specialization in something. Just rename your unarmed skill to Muay Thai and take a specialization in kicks or elbows or whatever.

In our games we have and are continuing to add more melee options but they are not limited to any specific MA style.

The specialisation of MA does not apply while trying to grapple an enemy or while parrying.

The first may be unimportant depending on your usage of the skill, the second is important. At least in our group, MA is used for offensive rolls and parry for defensive rolls. Might be wrong though.

GWC: Good point. I'd feel better conceptually about having a Krav Maga skill, and a "Takedowns" specialization.

And post up your melee stuff.

Why wouldn't MA apply when grappling or parrying? If my martial art of choice is Krav Maga, and a large portion of Krav Maga is focused on grappling and parrying, why not? Or, say, Jeet Kun Do, which incorporates Judo (Grappling) and Kali sticks (parrying) among other things?

That's the problem - a good choice of martial art will cover every aspect of unarmed except possibly "You are in a boxing match, so must box"

One still can truly hope that the abomination of multiple named unarmed combat skills won't happen anymore with the way SR4 is designed.

Just because I feel like being pedantic, MA wont work while Parrying because Parying uses an armed combat skill (Blades, Clubs, Etc.). Unarmed(MA) is used for blocking.

No, Unarmed (Parrying) is a specialization that is used for blocking... Unarmed (Martial Arts) is the specialization used for attacking.

People seem to be getting confused between what the see or learn in modern MA schools and reality. If you are learning a MA with the purpose of using it on the street, you are going to learn strikes, takedowns, grappling, weapon defenses and any practical techniques available. I have studied, Judo, both Japanese and Brazillian Jiu-iutsu, Krav, Muay Thai, Aikido, Karate, Boxing, Kung Fu, Kali, Kyu-Do and a couple others. Most of these are fairly comprehensive. Fancy moves you want to do are simply the results of getting a good roll. Further more, plently of MA teach parrying and some (Aikido) specialize in it.

I would hesitate before giving any special moves or bonuses to particular styles. You might force all disciples of a style to take a specific specialization or set of skills. I will attempt to post some of our melee rules when I get home tonight.

gimme a bit and I'll post the basic Martial Arts rules from ClassicBattletech:RPG. Their skill systems are very similar, and it might be possible to adapt them across the games.

In English (i.e. not Rules speak) "Parry" and "Block" are synonyms. I think only the most anal of GMs would look at your specialization and say "you can't use your bonus parry unarmed dice to block... haha! i win!! u loose!! n00b!"

But parry and block are specifically defined in Shadowrun, and they mean different things. It is a clear example that there are more problems with the Unarmed skill than just the fact that the MA spec is too broad. The fact that the list of specializations includes something you cannot do with the skill should point to the specialization list as being a pretty useless and poorly thought out piece of fluff.

Or it points to seperate authors using the same idea but a different word. In other words poor editing, not unuable rules. YMMV, but I'm firmly in the camp of the non-anal on this one.

You'll note that I gave fair warning that I chose to be pedantic in my first post in this thread. If you're going to bemoan the fact that I'm being pedantic you were warned:

Why would you even need a seperate system for Martial Arts? Have Unarmed Combat just simulate that. You decide what form the art takes. If it's a form that specializes in something particular take that as a specialty or as seperate skills. Jujitsu would have a specialty in Takedown, Judo in Subduing, Akido could represent a high Dodge skill.

No need for a convoluded Martial Arts system.

OK, below is the list of CBT:RPG Martial Arts and their subskills. I'll leave it to better SR4 Wizzards than I to determine if they can be adapted, and how so.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

(from CBT:RPG p. 102)
...A character with the Martial Arts skill adds his skill bonus to the action check result in melee combat. For each skill bonus point in Martial Arts, the character may chose to learn one of the following maneuvers.

Akido

Akido Dodge
Your opponen's Target Number (TN) to hit you is increased by 4, but your character cannot inflict damage this round of melee.
Topple
Your character's Target Number to hit is decreased by 2 and you cannot inflict damage this round. However, if you win the round of melee combat, the attacker is knocked prone.
Throw
A character must have a +2 Skill or better in Aikido to use this maneuver. Costs 1 Fatigue. If successful, you throw your opponent a number of meters equal to half your strength(round down) and he lands prone.

Military

Haymaker
By taking 1 Fatigue, you may add 2d6 damage.
Sweep
Your TN to hit is increased by 2, but if successful your opponent is knocked prone in addidion to taking normal damage.
Neck Jab
Must have at least a +2 Skill bonus in Military to use this. Your TN is increased by target's Reflex attribute, plus highest Martial Arts skill bonus (if any), but if your attack succeeds, the target must make an immediate Knockout Test with a TN modifier equal tot he attack's margin of success. This attack cannot be used against a character in full-coverage armor.

Tae Kwon Do
Block
Your opponent's damage is divided in half (round down), but you cannot inflict damage this round.
Roundhouse Kick
A character must have at least a +2 Skill bonus in Tae Kwon Do to use this maneuver. Costs 2 Fatigue. You may add 3d6 damage and the attack has an armor penetration value of 1.
Flying Kick
Costs 1 Fatigue. You can melee attack a target up to 2 meters away. If you win the round, the target must make a knockdown test. In addition, if the target was not in melee combat with you at the beginning of the round, he may not inflict damage on you even if he winds this round of combat.



(From Classic Battletech: Companion p. 112-114 *cracks his knuckles*)

Gung Fu

Crane

Crane Dodge
Opponent's to-hit TN increased by 3, you cannot do damage this round
Crane Wing Sweep
TN increased by 2, successful attack knocks opponent prone and deals normal damage.
Weapon Style
Requires +2 Skill bonus, allows you to use weapons with your standard Martial Arts maneuvers from any school. Use the lower of the two for your bonus.

Praying Mantis(requires +2 Skill bonus minimum)

Tan Tui Kick
Successful attack knocks opponent down and deals 2d6 fatigue.
T'ai Chi Punch
Designed to break bones, or joints if used in conjunction with Mantis Hook. Causes a serious wound to opponent if successful, but costs 2 Fatigue. Breaking Joints: After initiating Mantis Hook Grapple, attack with Punch, +2 TN for Elbow, +4TN for Shoulder, standard TN for wrist.
Mantis Hook
Requires a +4 skill bonus. Allows a free attack when target withdraws from the hold. Instead of attacking, player may opt to release suddenly, sending the target off-balance.

Tiger(requires +2 Skill bonus minimum)(+4 penalty when fighting on slick or wet surfaces)

Tiger Strikes
Inflicts a serious wound, costs 2 Fatigue.
Tiger Bares its Claws
Fingertip strike, costs 6 Fatigue, inflicts a Critical Wound upon successful attack. Requires a +4 skill bonus.
Tiger at Twilight
2 options: Block or Dodge
Block - Attackers recieve +4 TN to hit, successful blockprovides free attack at +2 TN.
Dodge - Player may not attack that round, recieves +5 TN to attacker's TN.

Dragon (Requires Skill bonus +2)

Swaying Dodge
Attacker's TN to hit you is increased by 4, Player may only use Dragon Tail Sweep from this position.
Dragon's Claw
Same as Tiger Bares its Claws
Dragon Tail Sweep
Players' TN increased by 3, successful attack deals full damage and knocks target prone.


Snake(+1 Skill bonus required)

Viper's Tongue(requires +3 Skill Bonus)
Attacks infict Grazing Wounds, but every 3 successful attacks increase the Wound Value until Critical, when target must make a Knockout Test.
Cobra's Assault
Successful attack forces Target to make a Stun Test or be stunned.
Python's Grip (requires +2 skill bonus)
Attacker makes skill check against HALF Opponent's Reflex. Succesful check places target in a hold until target can win an opposed Strength Test. Each attempt to break free increases the target's TN by 2. This attack CAN be used to make the target Black out (no rules are provided for this, however, heh)


Leopard (requires +3 Skill bonus)

Leopard at Dawn
Same as Tiger at Twilight
Leopard Bares its Claws
Same as Tiger Bares its claws, but only inflics Serious Wound and only costs 4 Fatigue.
Leopard Pounces on its Prey
Player may run from standing position a distance of meters equalto skill bonus and make a leaping kick to knock down opponent. Successful skill check at +4 TN forces opponent to make a knockdown check and a stun check.


Wing Chun (player may only choose 1 skill for every 2 levels of skill bonus)

Little Imagination
For every 3 skill bonus points, character gets 1 extra attack per round to a maximum of 3. Each attack will cause a minor wound to an opponent. Subsequent attacks in the same round raise damage to Critical. Each attack costs 3 Fatigue.
Thrusting Fingers
Same as Viper's Tongue
Hands that Stick
Attacker's TN to hit you increased by 3, you cannot attack this round.
Wings of Dancing
Same as Tiger at Twilight
Weapon Style
Same as Crane Weapon Style.




Ninjitsu (Bujinkan) (Attribute Minimums: STR 5, DEX 5, RFL 6, INT 5, WIL 5) (Character may take 1 Maneuver per 3 Skill levels)

Karma Punch
Same as Viper's Tongue, but only requres 2 hits per wound level elevation.
Snap Kick
+4 TN, deals full damage, forces a knockdown test, and if opponent was not in melee combat, he must make a stun test.
Restraint
Successful attack forces target to make an immediate knockout check equal to the Character's skill bonus plus skill check to attack.
Charge
Move as if Sprinting and attack in same turn. +4 TN to hit, causes 1 Fatigue per turn.
Grapple
Successful test against half Opponent's Reflex Attribute forces target to make an opposed Strength test to break free. Failure to break free allows Character to throw target if he desires. Target then takes falling damage. Costs 1 Fatigue.
Touch of Death
Player may not make any attacks in the turn prior to this attack.
Player may subtract skill bonus from Target Number to reflect focusing on the attack for a whole round. Successful attack to head inflicts Deadly Wound, Torso hit inflicts Serous Wound, all others inflict Minor wound.
Costs 10 Fatigue.
Weapons
Same as Crane Weapon Style.




Just for Clarification, CBT:RPG uses Wound Value instead of Physical Damage, and uses Fatigue instead of Stun Damage. So those would have to be converted over.


If nothing else, this might give some ideas to how it could be handled in SR4.

Booo, hissss, the list doesn't even cover some of the other chinese boxing styles like Taichi chuan, Bagua chuan, or Xing Yi Chuan... and just the shaolin kung fu styles? C'mon what about Lohan style? what about hapkido or... I'll quit now. I know you're just putting out a list from what btech released. I'm just being silly (and adding in arguments like in other martial arts threads).

...and no mention about good old fashioned Boxing.

The basic moves would be:

Punch
Jab
Cross
Uppercut
Block
Clinch (Grapple)


...as to martial arts as a specialisation:

I have no issue if, as mentioned in several other responses above, the +2 pool modifier only comes into play with the specific moves for a given discipline (*Fool*, you listening?). One idea would be to use the Martial Art descriptions (& not the actual rule expansions) from the Cannon Companion as a general guide as to which moves are part of each style.

I agree, we really don't need another comprehensive [read: complex] ruleset for Martial arts.

I was thinking more along the lines of a military grade laser for eye implants.

How hard would it be to just change the specializations of Unarmed Combat to Attack, Block and Subdue? That is, specialize by function instead of flavor. Is there another use for Unarmed I'm missing? I would include cyber-implant in those three- those functions are what you are using it for anyway.

For flavor you can define whatever style you want by that- "I'm an Aikido master, and my style focuses on defense" or "I use Muy Thai, a hard style, that focuses on striking". Yes, all the martial arts teach all three, but for flavor you can define which is the emphasis, without having to go into elaborate rule creations.

I think that it would be better to have a few skills that cover the basic catagories of actions of MA would be better then a bunch of manuevers.
I was thinking about something like this:

Linear Strikes - Strikes designed to do just damage, gets into physical damage
Circular Strikes - Better to counter with but less damage
Soft Grappling - Little damage but extra stun. Throws and joint locks.
Hard Grappling - Designed to damage limbs so they don't work. Joint breaking.

Then have the actual MAs reflected as a series of Knowledge skills that would cover techniques, etiquette, and history.

Then make Unarmed Combat the Skill Group (or Martial Arts).

BTW it works better to make unarmed and melee attacks simple actions, though I could see ground grappling being an extended complex action.

And for the record I advocate any given real world MA style to be pure flavor. If the intent of the specializations is that MA = Offensive, Parry = Defensive, Subdual and Cyber-implant are as they are written then that is how it should be. Martial Arts is far too open to interpretation if they ment offensive then it should be offensive. Parry is counterdefined, if they mean defensive then it should be defensive.

I do not advocate a complex martial arts style chapter in arsenal. For the same reason I do not advocate adding weights to every item in the world. Having brought it up I apologize, that is an argument that will never die. However if in fact Arsenal will be including the Rigger information we sorely need then any chapter on martial arts is wasting valuable space. If it comes down to having special style rules or an index I'll take an index. I would hate to see a repeat of Runner Havens where an index was excluded because there was not room.

The editing of SR4 is good. "Parry" should read "block" because both are extremely similar and intent is pretty obvious.

That many MAs teach all aspects of Unarmed Combat tells us one thing: the specialisation should have been called something like "attack". You´d then either have a balanced MA as Unarmed Combat skill without specialisations, or choose a strong point.

My own martial rules, borrowed from my friend's excellent rules he used in his Star Trek game:

'unarmed combat' is a unique skill in that it can have multiple specialties. These specialties apply all the time... but when used against an opponent with the same specialties, they cancel.

Most gangers, for instance, will have 'Unarmed Combat (streetfighting).' When fighting each other, the streetfighting cancel out -- no-one gets extra dice. In comes the kung fu master. He knows 'Unarmed Combat (kung fu)', but not streetfighting -- both he and the gangers get +2. Kung fu master then retires, and teaches a ganger how to fight in his style. That ganger now has both specialisations: now, he gets a +2 against other gangers (because of his kung fu), but they get none against him (because he possesses their specialisation as well).

Kung Fu Ganger will also retain his +2 bonus when he goes into chinatown and fights other kung fu practicioners... but if he uses the +2, it means he's using streetfighting moves. The other kung fu guys might find this newcomer offensive and barbaric, with all his uncouth 'street' moves and refuse to fight him... but the ganger can always choose to forego the +2 and fight using only kung fu -- until his life's in danger, when he breaks out the squirrel grip to clinch the fight (so to speak).

SO Rotbart you would say that PArry is a valid specialization because works when you are in Full Parry? If that is the case then it is not a very useful specialization because it still fails to be helpful to block, and only in those rare cases when you use a full parry.