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Deamon_Knight
Well, I've finally gotten a group together and am running a campiagn. I have one mage, and so I'm running against the problem of elementals. When you guys run, how do you run elementals? Do they have a mind of their own or are they extensions of the summoners will?

Mechanically, when the runners are in a fight and the mage sends the elementals against the otherwise mundane hit squad, how many services does this consume? One to materialize and one to 'Kill that group of bad guys'? Or fewer? Just one kill the group of bad guys?

Either way, how does an elemental fight? Does the command to kill the group of enemies mean the elemental will use its powers at every opportunity, or can I read SR3 p.188 'A Spirit in Physical form may use its powers against any target in its line of site. Each use of its powers is a separate service, unless it is an attack against a group of foes, which constitute a single service, regardless of the number of foes.' to mean that commanding an elemental to attack a group of foes is one service, but another service is required to invoke another power against that group of foes.

Any advice on how to rule this?
Slithery D
"Kill that group." Once service. It kills them with its own target selection allocation and choice of powers, i.e. Flamethrower vs. Engulf. If you give the elemental any other instructions, like "pause from the attack to use Accident on that guy" or "also attack those reinforcements that showed up" you use another service.

The GM should run the elemental. How should he run it? Well, mental attributes are equal to Force. Smart elementals should use smarter/more efficient tactics. Dumb little elementals might attack a nonoptimal first target. You can also treat high force spirits as more independent, smart enough to resent service and engaging the enemy in a way that keeps them safe (in the unlikely event the enemies can seriously threaten them). If the summoner is a dick to his elementals, you can also rule they'll do their best to trip up the spirit of his orders, attacking in an inefficient way, and waiting to kill anyone shooting at his summoner last.

Obviously there's a lot of flexibility here, but these are pretty good guidelines to follow.
Ranneko
QUOTE (Slithery D)
The GM should run the elemental. How should he run it? Well, mental attributes are equal to Force. Smart elementals should use smarter/more efficient tactics. Dumb little elementals might attack a nonoptimal first target. You can also treat high force spirits as more independent, smart enough to resent service and engaging the enemy in a way that keeps them safe (in the unlikely event the enemies can seriously threaten them). If the summoner is a dick to his elementals, you can also rule they'll do their best to trip up the spirit of his orders, attacking in an inefficient way, and waiting to kill anyone shooting at his summoner last.

I wouldn't necessitate a lower force elemental attacking a non-optimal target.

Instead make their tactics simple, attack the closest, the largest, that kind of thing. The smarter the spirit the more complex tactics they may use, taking into account magical talent, size and types of weapons, cover, that kind of thing.

A really low force elemental may simply go straight for the closest opponent. A slighly higher force one may actually try to use cover in their approach. A higher force one may try to geek the mage first. That kind of thing.

And indeed, keep track of how a magician treats their spirits, if they treat them badly, spirits might start deliberately interpreting the orders dumbly, or attempt to be overcautious in combat situations.
Kagetenshi
Base it on the personality of the mage, as a spirit is after all nothing more than their will made manifest in magical form. No matter how much the mage "mistreats" his or her spirits, provided the mage's mind is clear of self-doubt, the spirit should obey perfectly. A disorganized or troubled mind should result in disorganized or troubled spirits.

~J
emo samurai
Feel like debating magical theory, Kage?
odei
Yeah, I don't remember anywhere that spirits are laid down as one or the other. It's up to the individual if spirits are direct manifestations or actual willful beings.

As for attacking and services, I make it 1 attack/power = 1 service. Spirits are so strong, I don't see it fair to say "attack that group" because unless the targets have magic or decent CHA and WIL, they're all as good as dead. Optionally, a spirit could be told to attack multiple targets at once (though not with engulf) which would be a standard multi-target melee. That's how I run it.

Also, if the service requires materialization, I lump it in with the service.
Herald of Verjigorm
Great forms can do mass-engulf so it would be one service for them.

Took out a helicopter full of reinforcements that way once.
Pendaric
~I had force six and therefore very intellegent elemental materialise and go astral or vice versa as was most effective, so it went astral to pursue and overtake the fleeing runners to continue attacking. Scared them silly.
knasser
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight @ Oct 10 2006, 09:47 PM)
Well, I've finally gotten a group together and am running a campiagn. I have one mage, and so I'm running against the problem of elementals. When you guys run, how do you run elementals? Do they have a mind of their own or are they extensions of the summoners will?

Mechanically, when the runners are in a fight and the mage sends the elementals against the otherwise mundane hit squad, how many services does this consume? One to materialize and one to 'Kill that group of bad guys'? Or fewer? Just one kill the group of bad guys?

Either way, how does an elemental fight? Does the command to kill the group of enemies mean the elemental will use its powers at every opportunity, or can I read SR3 p.188 'A Spirit in Physical form may use its powers against any target in its line of site. Each use of its powers is a separate service, unless it is an attack against a group of foes, which constitute a single service, regardless of the number of foes.' to mean that commanding an elemental to attack a group of foes is one service, but another service is required to invoke another power against that group of foes.

Any advice on how to rule this?


I'm happy for a PC to say "Attack them" for one service. If the PC starts trying to exert fine control such as telling the spirit to use a particular power to accomplish something, there goes another service. Extension of the conjuror's will or not (it's never laid down for certain, either way), the GM runs the spirits and the player hopes for the best. A force 3 has average human intelligence and will use mediocre, but not crap tactics. A high force (5 or 6) is likely to act very intelligently in fulfilling its orders, including judicious use of its powers where useful. I don't want spirit summoning to be an opportunity for the GM to punish the player. They do pay for these spirits usually, after all.

I'm also willing to use group or individual interchangeably. You can say "use your power" on this group or on this enemy (if it's a power that can be used on more than one individual). You can't mix and match once you've done that though, And if new enemies arrive then I'd probably say they aren't covered by the original service. It depends on the circumstances and the spirit and, as other's have said, just how the spirit feels. The most important thing to make clear to the players is that it's not a game of carefully phrasing the service request. These aren't genies from the Arabian Nights. If a player requests something that is more than one service, then they don't get it. Likewise, spirits are not usually plotting to pervert the players wishes due to lax phrasing. The GM decides what constitutes a service - it's not that a spirit is summoned and contracted to fulfill whatever the conjuror says. A mage being powerful enough to get complex tasks fulfilled is represented in the rules by achieving multiple services or binding.

I'll also play the spirits with some personality where appropriate, especially if a player dares summon particularly high forces. A powerful Beast spirit may enjoy combat and gleefully pursue fleeing security guards over the course of the next hour, playing with them like a hunting pack. A great form Fire Elemental may get caried away and start the whole warehouse burning to the horror of the conjuring mage. Fun is the name of the game and if a player goes to the effort / expense of getting himself a Force 6, he should get some satisfaction out of it.

Doesn't mean I can't hit the players with something powerful to compensate, though. wink.gif
lorechaser
QUOTE (odei)
As for attacking and services, I make it 1 attack/power = 1 service. Spirits are so strong, I don't see it fair to say "attack that group" because unless the targets have magic or decent CHA and WIL, they're all as good as dead.

That's a lot of services burned up. When you say 1 attack, do you mean "Attack that guy until he's dead" or "Attack that guy in this init pass"?

Spirits are tough. And unless you have magic or decent CHA and WIL, you're as good as dead.

Spells are tough. And unless you have magic or decent BOD and WIL, you're as good as dead.

Assault Rifles are tough. And unless you have cover or decent armor and BOD, you're as good as dead.

I'm not sure that a spirit is that much tougher than the equivalent. A Force 6 spirit is pretty nasty. But summoning a Force 6 spirit is no cakewalk, and getting more than a couple services is rare, until you're a 3rd rank initiate. At that point, the Sammy is dual wielding panthers anyway.
Apathy
Does anyone interpret the rules to mean that spirits have the option of using edge to resist conjuring and/or binding? If so, how often, and under what circumstances, should it happen? Would it be more common with binding (which I believe spirits are supposed to resent more)? How about more common with high force spirits vs. low force spirits?

On the flip side, is it reasonable for mages to be able to order their spirits to use edge on an attack?
odei
I know it works the other way, too, but not as I always like it - I mean, with spells and guns you can always geek the mage or the sammie. Problem solved. As low as Force 5 a spirit is nigh-invincible to all ordinary weapons but sniper rifles and explosives. You're dead, no questions asked. And if you decide to geek the mage who has control of an elemental and the elemental decides to hang around... well, your problem is still largely there. I also reduced the cost of summoning (it seems right at 500 nuyen per Force pt) and I allow karma pool when summoning. Basically elementals are less of an investment and services are more common.

I would still run it the other way, but it seems like if other powers are quantified by "one use, one service," telling a spirit to simply "attack until dead" becomes the overwhelming obvious option. Going 1 attack=1 service, mages would be just as likely to use elementals for things like supporting sorcery and sustaining spells, whereas usually those services don't seem very attractive (except for sustain spell (Force) days, which I want to get rid of). It's not perfect, but I like to see elementals used more often.
Findar
Every time an order is issued to a spirit it uses up a service. So "Kill those security guards" is one service. Regarding how the spirit acts that depends on whether conjured spirits are beings from another plane beiing summoned or they are mana contructs formed through summoning. In one novel the title of which I can't remember a hermetic mage has several elementals that he has had summoned for a really long time. These elementals had some personality. The explanation in the book for this behavior was the longer you keep an elemental summoned for the more personility it accumulates. Now you can't go overboard with this concept. The elemental can't disobey an order but it can develop style. Any group of runners that doesn't have a plan for dealing with spirits is not long for the biz. Even strictly mundane characters can affect some spirits if they plan in advance. Elemental attacks or very high power bullets work good. IMHO all runners should carry an anti-spirit "side arm" if their primary weapon isn't good against spirits. A taser works great for that or a Roomsweeper loaded with "Big D Temper" shells also work. Spirits are the reason my character favors high power single shots over auto fire. A sniper rifle will affect up to a force 7 spirit. A shotgun loaded with Big Ds should get you a power 9-11(depends on the gun) elemental fire attack versus which the spirit only gets it's force in armor. That should give you a chance against mid-range force spirits.
knasser
QUOTE (Apathy @ Oct 11 2006, 02:27 PM)
Does anyone interpret the rules to mean that spirits have the option of using edge to resist conjuring and/or binding? If so, how often, and under what circumstances, should it happen? Would it be more common with binding (which I believe spirits are supposed to resent more)? How about more common with high force spirits vs. low force spirits?

On the flip side, is it reasonable for mages to be able to order their spirits to use edge on an attack?


My take ( I think it's not an uncommon one, however):

Spirits can use Edge to resist summoning and binding, along with using it in attacks, etc. But this doesn't normally happen in any of these cases. In the cases of summoning and binding, I would have a spirit use edge if the conjuror had a really bad history with spirits. For example, often using bound spirits to do long term spell sustaining, irretrievably burning away their force. To begin with spirits would just use Edge to resist sometimes. Edge can make a big difference to success, especially with binding. I might also have spirits use edge to resist if they had another particular issue with the conjuror. For example, conjuring a forest spirit when your group had indiscriminately burnt or damaged the forest, were working for a logging company, etc. That sort of thing. The rule would be the higher the spirit's force, the more likely it might express its own agenda. And of course, they're precisely the ones you least want to do that. wink.gif

I would never, under any circumstances, allow a mage to order a spirit to use Edge. I see edge as a meta-game concept and I don't see the mage saying "try harder" to his spirit influencing it much. In the previous examples that I mentioned, however, I can see spirits sometimes using edge when they want to. For example, if you have a Force 7 Earth Elemental stomping about the place, quite frankly it might start enjoying knocking the building down. And the other case would be using Edge to protect itself. Again this would only apply if the spirit were pissed off and really wanted to win. Only the higher force spirits will have such an individual nature that they'll get this emotionally involved.

If the same spirit is regularly summoned or has been re-bound continually, then probably you can let it develop more personality and spend edge more often (either to resist binding or to help its master depending on the relationship).

Edge can really throw a surprise to the conjuring player, either a nice one or a nasty one. Bear in mind that Force 5+ spirits have a lot of edge.
Deamon_Knight
Its so hard to get all the players on the same page about just HOW powerful magic is going to be, spirits especially so. Seems that in the world of shadowrun, security teams must have evolved the tactic of never being all clumped together, not just to avoid grenades or autofire, but so as rarely as possible have many of the team in LOS to be targeted by a possible mage. That begs the question, how much LOS must a mage have to loose his elementals against a group of 5 guards? Assume all are reasonably intelligent and only pop up to fire on the runners two or three at a time, can the mage send his elemental against the 5 he knows are there, or only the two that make themselves visible at a time?

I also seem recall that elementals aren't bound by normal physics when materialized, bringing up the problem of the force 6 fire elemental floating 4 Meters off the ground and using flamethrower all day long. Is this correct? I can't seem to find an answer in SR3.

I also wonder if materialized fire elementals are FIRE, walking about setting rooms on fire as they travel. What if flame aura is off, or can an fire elemental choose to ignite or extinguish a fire at will? I want to say that latter is covered in MitS but I'm away from my books right now.

I'm leaning toward attack a visible group as one service, but requiring a single separate service to force an elemental to materialize to take any action on the physical plane. Its usually well stated that elementals dislike materializing, requiring a service to do it seems right. My players expected to run their own elementals, but I agree putting them under GM control as intelligent NPCs makes sense. Any thoughts?
Kagetenshi
"Flame Aura gives a being the ability to make its surface ripple with flames, burning anyone who touches it."

(Emphasis added)

Nothing in the Fire Elemental description removes the bolded part.

~J
Deamon_Knight
So you agree the fire elemental lacks the ability to ripple with flames (tangible superheated carbons) when flame aura is inactive? It folows that a manifested Fire Elemental (usually?) looks like fire, but isn't?
blakkie
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
It folows that a manifested Fire Elemental (usually?) looks like fire, but isn't?

That seems to be the gist of it. The new Street Magic book actually attempts to address this odd physical property of manifested spirits. It explains that the physical bodies of all manifested spirits are composed of the same previously unknown protoplasmic element regardless of their actual appearance. Although the material in each class of spirit has a property unique within that class of spirit that will react with the oppositional element, fire spirit with water.
Deamon_Knight
Ugh,
**supresses urge to bash SR4**
Just Think happy thought, thiink Happpy Thoughts.
Kagetenshi
What, you don't think midichlorians were an awesome idea? wink.gif

~J
Bodak
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight @ Oct 11 2006, 10:11 PM)
It folows that a manifested Fire Elemental (usually?) looks like fire, but isn't?

That seems to be the gist of it. The new Street Magic book actually attempts to address this odd physical property of manifested spirits. It explains that the physical bodies of all manifested spirits are composed of the same previously unknown protoplasmic element regardless of their actual appearance. Although the material in each class of spirit has a property unique within that class of spirit that will react with the oppositional element, fire spirit with water.

In 3rd Ed, manifested spirits only exist as a projection to the minds of all nearby living creatures They don't have a physical form. Materialised spirits though do have a physical form, immunity to normal weapons, +10 initiative, etc etc.
odei
QUOTE (Deamon_Knight @ Oct 11 2006, 08:37 PM)
Its so hard to get all the players on the same page about just HOW powerful magic is going to be, spirits especially so. Seems that in the world of shadowrun, security teams must have evolved the tactic of never being all clumped together, not just to avoid grenades or autofire, but so as rarely as possible have many of the team in LOS to be targeted by a possible mage. That begs the question, how much LOS must a mage have to loose his elementals against a group of 5 guards? Assume all are reasonably intelligent and only pop up to fire on the runners two or three at a time, can the mage send his elemental against the 5 he knows are there, or only the two that make themselves visible at a time?

I also seem recall that elementals aren't bound by normal physics when materialized, bringing up the problem of the force 6 fire elemental floating 4 Meters off the ground and using flamethrower all day long. Is this correct? I can't seem to find an answer in SR3.

I also wonder if materialized fire elementals are FIRE, walking about setting rooms on fire as they travel. What if flame aura is off, or can an fire elemental choose to ignite or extinguish a fire at will? I want to say that latter is covered in MitS but I'm away from my books right now.

I'm leaning toward attack a visible group as one service, but requiring a single separate service to force an elemental to materialize to take any action on the physical plane. Its usually well stated that elementals dislike materializing, requiring a service to do it seems right. My players expected to run their own elementals, but I agree putting them under GM control as intelligent NPCs makes sense. Any thoughts?

I think it would be reasonable that if the mage knows there are 5 guards and says "kill the guards" the elemental will kill those 5 guards, regardless of whether the mage can still actually see them. As long as the mage just has to turn a corner or such that's good enough. If he's a full mage, he could even project (after calling the elemental) and safely point out the target that way.

If there was another guard the mage didn't see, even if the elemental spots the extra guard I doubt it would go out of its way to attack that one. I base this on the fact that the mage can issue commands telepathically, so he could relay to the elemental that he is aware of 5 guards.

As far as physics is concerned, while spirits have privileges in the physical world (like the +10 INIT) otherwise they are subject to gravity except in the case of air elementals. You never see earth, water or fire suspended in the air... and air is just air.

One service to materialize and one to attack is fine if that's what you're leaning to.

I would not let the PCs run an elemental. Remind them that its not a <s>puppet with strings</s> power-suit of sorts, its not a happy camper, and its going to do things its own way--albeit sincerely.

EDIT: On second thought, elementals are rather like puppets. smile.gif
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