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The Question Man
frown.gif Chummers I have SINed , I GM a campaign where one of the characters managed to finally aquire a suit of Light Hardened Military Grade Armor . I drgged my feet for a year on this , before finally caving in to the players' constant pressure . After one session I realized what a mistake that was .

How would you deal with it ?
It's cake. it degrades like normal armor, except he has absolutely no way at all to repair it, as the parts availablility is as insane as the armor was.

It won't last long since its impossible to be stealthy in it. He WILL get shot at.
Dude, the smart player will hang the helmet of the armor on his wall like a trophy and sell the rest of it.

I'm as serious as every two-bit ganger, thug and shadowrunner who's gonna come looking for the silly fragger who's showing off his nigh-mythical toy.

If you had the Holy Grail, the honest-to-fictional Cup of Christ sitting in your house, how long do you think it would stay there? Especially after the local tv show does a thirty second expose?

What sort of campaign are you running? If it's a merc campaign, do nothing at all. The weapons are deadly enough anyway. If it's a standard shadowrun campaign, do nothing at all. This isn't the sort of stuff you can conveniently wear around. It's useful for para-military raids, but for an average shadowrunning team, those don't come up very frequently. When they do, let him have his fun. If it's a campaign where he can plausibly use the stuff frequently, yet the opposition isn't up to dealing with it (either with magic, APDS, or simple high-powered weapons) then you'll need to make some adjustments. If they've been playing a year and are starting to acquire items like military armor though, it's probably time to start pitting them against more capable adversaries.

Remember too that he's not invulnerable. Stunbolt still works. Powerbolt still works. IPE grenades still work (so do superflash). Claymores still work (the explosives, not the swords - though those will work too if you've got enough strength). APDS in anything bigger than a holdout pistol can penetrate the armor (even light pistols, though he'd probably resist the damage). Big guns, like HMGs, sniper rifles, and assualt cannons definitely work, with or without APDS.

Without more insight into what sort of campaign you're running, it's hard to advise how exactly to fix the problem, but there are lots of options available to you, including perhaps recognizing that it's not really a problem. When he can actually wear the stuff without bringing 9 kinds of hell down on his team, he'll shrug off normal small arms fire. That's about it.
Also, what exactly does he plan to do with it? It's about as obvious as a flourescent pink naked troll that illuminates.
The armor's great, but it's not godly, or even particulairly unbalancing when you think about it.

If they have the armor itself and no helmet, then absolutely nothing has really changed. Yes, he has a high ballistic, so what? Ares Predator's still hurt him, as do the higher powered SMGs. Light pistols, instead of actually requiring a damage resistence roll to ignore, can be automatically ignored. Congratulations, you just streamlined your game.

If they have the armor itself and a helmet, shotguns still work, as do assault rifles or heavy pistols loaded with explosive rounds. There's also a good chance that he's lost a point of combat pool.

It's also very heavy. The fastest way to re-balance them would probably be to enforce the encumberance limits. If they have 4 body, a very reasonable assumption, the armor alone weighs 16 kgs, plus 3 from the helmet. Every single assault rifle has a weight of 4 kgs or more. A single 30 shot clip weighs 2.25 kgs if loaded with standard ammo, 1.5 if it's loaded with APDS, 3 if loaded with explosive ammo. A foregrip, shockpads, and a gas vent IV can add on 2 more kgs. We've over the weight limit for a strength 5 character already and we haven't even gone into all the misc crap runners carry, much less extra ammo. If the char in question is a troll, ork, or any character that has discovered steroids, weight might not be as much an issue, if it's an issue at all.
Dude, its not a problem. Acid attacks, magic (unless he figures out warding it might be a good idea, if you allow it), apds, theives, snipers, called shots, police following him around like particularly well armed lost puppies, not being able to sit down in a normal vehicle cos there's no room in the bucket seat, weight on rickety bridges, reduced combat pool or quickness modifiers... you got plenty of things to keep him busy till he learns to use it sparingly, dont' worry. These sorts of problems work themselves out - if he's being munchkin-y about it, he'll want to wade through firefights, and generally be the big I Am. Well, no worries, that just makes him the biggest target. He wants the drek? Give him the drek.
The Jopp
Create an NPC who witnesses the character in his nice toy, said NPC is a proffessional thief/runner.

Thief steals armour, climbs in and WALKS out of the characters home since the NPC is very well protected by "his" military grade armour. grinbig.gif
I'm assuming he has a helmet and is thus immune to most heavy pistol shots:

Attention is going to kill him. If he is wearing the armor and someone sees it and lives, the word will get out. Sooner or later someone is going to try to kill him or steal the suit.

To be honest you don't even need to kill him or even disable his armor. Have a decker contact of his contact him and inform him that someone has just offered a reasonable bounty for his head. The decker can lay false trails ETC for a price but as more people see him in the armor, the noose tightens and it becomes more and more likely that he will be positively identified (can be balanced by more misinformation = money to the decker)

Plus if the aforementioned pissed-off party is lone-star then you can expect official wanted posters to go up on the matrix and in lone-star stations. Perhaps have a shadowrunner offer to help catch him in exchange for a pardon for posessing illegal gear? Cops really don't like cop killers.

Hound him a bit, have him realise that it truly is bothersome to wear it all the time, and so he only takes it out on special occations. On these occations, you can presumably excuse breaking-out the APDS/shotguns/both thus he would no-longer be immortal.
Try using the knock-down rules. This guy is probably going to draw a fairly high percentage of fire in your firefights because of the armour, so whilst he might be immune to a lot of stuff, doesn't do much good if you're knocked on your ass and trying to regain your senses.

Plus just really enforce the weight rules on what the character can carry. The armour itself has a listed weight that takes up a lot of what you can carry.
Dr Vital
Not to hijack the topic, but what armor do you recommend that gives the best bang for your buck without turning you into a walking bullet magnet?
Kanada Ten
Form Fitting Body Armor and Lined Coat / Armor Jacket depending on the character's quickness, IMGMO.
Dim Sum
Dude, the guy may have his fancy armour but he still has got to eat, sleep, and answer the call of Nature, right? biggrin.gif Lots of things you can do to him or the armour when he's out of it!

I roll every now and then to see if the PCs need to take a dump; I increase the odds if they've had a bad curry or haven't been to the loo in some time. biggrin.gif You wanna see paranoia? Come and watch my players draw their weapons each time they have to go squat in the bushes in the boonies, in "enemy" territory. nyahnyah.gif

If he sleeps with his armour on, penalise him with fatigue (Stun damage) for not getting a good rest. If he sleeps with his armour off, you can have NPCs ambush him without it - he'll never suit up in time! biggrin.gif If you're looking for something more natural and less threatening/more humourous, have a cockroach climb into his armour and start running about AFTER the guy seals his suit ... might even happen in the middle of combat if you want to be nasty. biggrin.gif

The guy has to eat, neh? (Uh, yeah, I roll to see when PCs get hungry/thirsty, also) Poison his food/drink! Maybe it won't kill him but it might make him puke INSIDE his sealed helmet! Ooooh, just think about it - stench modifiers, vision penalties!! biggrin.gif
John Campbell
Just ask yourself this question... what would your players do if you threw an NPC in hardened military armor at them?

Swap "player" and "NPC", and there ya go.
Neon Tiger
One word: Manabolt!
Matrix Monkey
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Form Fitting Body Armor and Lined Coat / Armor Jacket depending on the character's quickness, IMGMO.

IIRC, Form Fitting armor doesn't count toward armor rating totals for determining combat pool loss...

If so FFBA is a must-have for these purposes, since it's worn underneath your regular clothing/armor and as such is more easily concealed.
QUOTE (The Question Man)
frown.gif  Chummers I have SINed , I GM a campaign where one of the characters managed to finally aquire a suit of Light Hardened Military Grade Armor . I drgged my feet for a year on this , before finally caving in to the players' constant pressure . After one session I realized what a mistake that was .

How would you deal with it ?

Deal with military armor? Here's my advice as a frequent user of milgrade armor, and as a GM who doesn't mind it in his games:

First, make sure the runner isn't seen in public with it. Being seen in milgrade armor is like being seen with an assault rifle in public today. Drop a Lonestar SWAT team on the runner's butt if does. Now, that's easy to say, but remember it'll probably ruin the rest of the gaming session. A GM needs some brass to use this response.

Second, when it would be appropriate, use magic. Milgrade armor does nothing against a mana bolt or power bolt. But don't trot out extra magic just because one of your runners now has milgrade armor. Use magic when it's appropriate - not every corporate facility has combat mages, nor does every Lonestar patrol car.

Third, use APDS in appropriate situations. Again, your average office security guard (i.e., overweight, underpaid rentacop) is not going to be packing a heavy pistol with APDS, or an assault rifle with APDS.

Fourth, do nothing else in response to the armor. As soon as runners get wired reflexes 2 and their first cheap AK-97 assault rifle, they're deadlier than 99% of the population. In many cases, they should already be stomping all over most of the opponents they face, unless you're only feeding them a diet of Corporate Commandos, Delta Force Soldiers, SWAT teams, Elven Cyber Ninjas, etc. When the runners meet foes who are real threat to them, the foes should be quite capable of handling milgrade armor - a good burst of APDS from an assault rifle, a high force mana bolt, a sniper with APDS on the far roof - without extra buffing.

Most players don't bother with milgrade armor in my game, even though it's available at character creation. They don't see it as fitting the character concepts or being worth the trouble (see point 1, above).

I disagree with the notion that owners of milgrade armor will become instant targets for every street punk and other runner, and thus should hang their suits up as trophies. If the word is getting out on the street that a runner has milgrade armor, it's getting to the police, too, and they should be visited by a SWAT team soon. Further, runners that thieve from other runners should have a short life expectancy. Finally, if you're going to be stealing milgrade armor from a runner, why not loot all that expensive cyberware they have, too? Since you don't see many murders just for the sake of cyberware, you can figure milgrade weapons and armor aren't getting ripped off often either.
Cause it's easier to re-use stolen mil-spec armor than cyberware?

And (side note) if people kill other people for organ harvesting, I'm pretty sure the cyberware gets salvaged too. Although if a person has a lot of expensive cyber, it hints the person might be a little tough to kill (and loot).

There has to be at least one psycho gang that makes random people disappear for parts and pieces. I have to admit, CP atmosphere tends to be a lot darker and grittier and ultimately nastier than the SR world.

And the thieves don't have to be runners (although that's possible), gangers would be interested in it. If not for personal use, imagine how many drugs, guns and vehicles they can buy (or barter) from interested fixers.

The shadowrunning community can't be so small and tight-knit that everyone knows everyone else. Which means there have to be some unfriendly and anti-social people lurking who might actually do things like murder, steal and pillage from anyone given the opportunity, including fellow runners.


Edit: Gangs will hit each other for turf, for storage depots and whatnot. I imagine that brokers dealing in mil-spec gear also invest quite a bit in protecting their investments. If you know a guy down the road has a really expensive stereo and you're not adverse to a little burglary, you can have a really expensive stereo or some extra cash if you know a fence.

S'why experienced and paranoid runners always invest in extra security -- you may not keep everyone out, but you can at least make them work for it. grinbig.gif
Off topic

For me the best freely avilable armour combo is this.
FFA (4/+0), heavy jumpsuit (+1/4)(with helmet [0/+2]) and vest with plates (+2/+1), forarm guards [0/+1]HtH only

The FFA cos it is just that good, The jump suit for the changable camo and the impact armour, the vest for the extra rating and the "coolness" of the look (in my head anyway)

Total value:- 7/7 (0/+1)Hth only
Weight:- 5.95Kgs
Lowest Conc:- 6 for the jumpsuit (which seem to be common) 10 for the next.
Cost:- 3400 nuyen.gif
Avilability:- 6 (for the FFA

You lose only 1pt form Combat pool if quickness is less then 7

Checking the math:

Level III ffa: 4/1
Heavy jumpsuit (Rapid Transit?): 2/4

Helmet (Rapid Transit): 0/+2
Forearm guards: 0/+1 (melee only)

Vest w/ plates: 4/3
Vest: 2/1

Now I need to look up the layering rules, since I thought it was limited to two layers, halving the lesser value and adding it to the larger.

Your combo works, if you leave off the vest. You are left with: 5 (4 + 2/1: 1)/5 (1/2: 1 + 4)

Tack on the helmet and the mix goes to 5/7, 5/8 against melee with forearm guards.

K just checked the armour rules.

It doesn't say you can't have more than 2, but also it doesn't have the "and so on" i thought it had.

but personally it would let you. cos once you get past the 2/3 layers mark the peneties just make it not worthwhile. IMHO.

[edit] deleted cos i is dum[/edit]
QUOTE (Siege @ Oct 23 2003, 04:49 PM)
There has to be at least one psycho gang that makes random people disappear for parts and pieces.  I have to admit, CP atmosphere tends to be a lot darker and grittier and ultimately nastier than the SR world.

There is. the organisation Tanamous, aided by the Dissemblers in Seattle and other gangs elsewhere. They generally do it for organs (mainly because it is beleived Ghouls run it), sometimes do it for stem cell harvest to sell on. If they do the latter, you gotta beleive they sell the other bits they can't use as well.
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