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emo samurai
It'll apply only to free spirits and it'll confer a +2 bonus to binding them. Does this work, or does it make binding free spirits too uber?
Slithery D
I don't hate it, but I do wonder if fluff-wise it would be possible to specialize in something most magicians never do and very few ever do more than once or twice. As far as unbalanced, you're giving up the ability to specialize in a form of spirit that won't do its best to kill you once it goes free.
emo samurai
There's an easy way to prevent that: always rebind, and do so in a background count so that the spirit's screwed up the arse.
BlackHat
Assuming you never take it out of that background count, and no one ever banishes it.
Slithery D
Yeah, banishing is what I'd worry about. While the mechanics of banishining continue to suck, it's a tactically wise move to banish rather than stun/manabolt a spirit if it's pissed off at the original summoner and will help kill him. Perfect for Free and Blood spirits...if you can pull it off.
emo samurai
QUOTE (BlackHat)
Assuming you never take it out of that background count, and no one ever banishes it.

And provided it doesn't have a bajillion services.
Synner
QUOTE (emo samurai)
There's an easy way to prevent that: always rebind, and do so in a background count so that the spirit's screwed up the arse. 

I've seen you mention this several times, I just hope you realize that unless you stack several metamagics any Background Count high enough to affect a free spirit is also going to slaughter your Magic rating which in turn directly impacts your Summoning and Binding dicepools.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (emo samurai)
There's an easy way to prevent that: always rebind, and do so in a background count so that the spirit's screwed up the arse. 

I've seen you mention this several times, I just hope you realize that unless you stack several metamagics any Background Count high enough to affect a free spirit is also going to slaughter your Magic rating which in turn directly impacts your Summoning and Binding dicepools.

The idea is that when in a background count you suffer penalties to your magic, and the spirit suffers penalties to its force. That means that since your dicepool when going up against a free spirit is your Willpower + Binding, your dicepool doesn't shrink (unless the background count exceeds your magic rating and then you can't use your binding skill).

So for every point of background count, the spirit suffers a -1 dicepool penalty and you suffer a -0 dicepol penalty. Therefore, binding a free spirit in a thick background is objectively a good thing. Of course, the spirit's Edge is uncoupled from its Force, so its penalty is only 1 die per point of background.

Similarly, binding a normal spirit is also beneficial in a background count. the spirit's force drops by X, which entails a dicepool penalty of 2x, and your magic drops by X, for a penalty of only X. So relatively speaking, binding in a background count puts you ahead by X, where X is the background count.

Heck, the drain you suffer is even less bad, as the Force and Magic drop together (so no conversion of stun to physical occurs), and the drain code is based on the spirit's hits. Do to the opposed nature of the binding tests and the character skill independent fashion of generating drain codes, conjuring in heavy background count is objectively a good idea. Spellcasting in heavy background count is a bad idea, but conjuring is all good.

You get less hits, the spirit gets more less hits, and your Logic and Willpower are unaffected so you get more services and suffer less drain fo conjuring the same spirits.

On a side note, Invoking is severely less impressive in a background count.

-Frank
Synner
You're absolutely right regarding free spirits, serves me right for posting that early in the morning. Regarding using Summoning or Binding on other spirits, I'd note that the advantages quoted are at least partially offset by your reduced Magic also reducing the max force you can summon and bind, and lowering the level where Physical Drain kicks in (a Magic 5 magician in a BC 2 will only be able to Summon a force 6 spirit max and anything more than a force 3 spirit might cause Physical Drain) - though the chance of Drain itself is indeed reduced.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (synner)
Regarding using Summoning or Binding on other spirits, I'd note that the advantages quoted are at least partially offset by your reduced Magic also reducing the max force you can summon and bind, and lowering the level where Physical Drain kicks in (a Magic 5 magician in a BC 2 will only be able to Summon a force 6 spirit max and anything more than a force 3 spirit might cause Physical Drain) - though the chance of Drain itself is indeed reduced.


Yes and no. First of all, summoning in a background count is just asking to be smacked around. The spirit isn't even in the background count until the opposed test is successful, so you're running at penalties and the spirit is not. The pnalties for that are even worse than you describe - drain isn't reduced at all, you could easily be bumped up to physical drain, you get less services, and your spirit at the end operates at penalties once it gets here. It hits you coming and going.

As for binding, then the reduction in maximum Force is a real and noticable effect, but the reduction in the Force you can conjure before you take physical drain is not. So for example, were you to decide to bind a Force 5 spirit, you'd suffer Stun damage if your Magic was 5, you'd suffer physical damage if your Magic was 3, and you'd be unable to even make the attempt if your Magic was 2. Now, if you walk into a level 2 background count, that same spirit is only Force 3, and your Magic is reduced by 2 as well. So you still suffer stun if your magic was 5 (3), but the guy with a Magic of 3 (1) can't even make the attempt anymore (and the guy with a Magic of 2 is effectively mundane).

Force and Magic are reduced by X for binding. That means that for purposes of whether you suffer phyical or stun there is no change (a comparison of X vs. X). But for the purposes of whether you can make a binding attempt at all, you're falling behind the curve (X vs. 2X). Of course, I think that pretty much means jack, because player characters with any sense don't even tr to bind spirits with Forces of about twice their Magic attribute. It's not that hey can't make the attempt, it's that it isn't going to work.

So to put it all together, when you bind in a background count:
  • You suffer less drain. DV reduction of 4/3 of a point per point of background count.
  • The maximum "real" Force of a spirit you can bind is reduced by the Background Count.
  • You get more services. 1/3 of an extra service per point of background count.
  • No change to whether drain is physical or stun.

-Frank
emo samurai
Just make sure the background count's less than Rating 7, 'cause otherwise the spirit'll die.
Jaid
hmmmm.... so if you can get a BC aspected towards your tradition, and you can get your hands on a spirit that is not of your tradition, it all just goes nuts when you start up the binding game =P
emo samurai
QUOTE (Jaid)
hmmmm.... so if you can get a BC aspected towards your tradition, and you can get your hands on a spirit that is not of your tradition, it all just goes nuts when you start up the binding game =P
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