So, there are certain Qualities that vary in BP cost dependent on whether the character is, or is not a Hacker. Normally this type of thing would not be a problem, because with things like Technomancy and the Awakened, the appropriate skills required for those 'roles' are acquired at chargen, and in fact cannot be acquired in-game.
Hacking though, is different, in that almost any character could conceivably expand his portfolio to fill that roll post-chargen.
#1 Should that character then deserve a rebate on the BP of the negative Qualities? Why not?
#2 Should he just gain positive qualities to equal the negative points differential? Why not?
#3 Is there any other fair way to adjudicate this?
#4 If no to any of the above, how many Skill rankings would be the minimum required, and in what Skills, would a character need to fall under the 'Hacker' category at chargen?
Full Version: Define a 'Hacker"
My question would be more: Why should the hacker receive any rebates in chargen? The difference in cost between a hacker and a non-hacker for various qualities is that a hacker spends so much time in virtual reality.. therefore things that would affect the mind affect them more. The cost difference is represented by one who is less in contact with virtual reality, and therefore would normally require some kind of back-story as to why they have that quality. Or at least the GM should require a good back-story... I mean if a non-hacker has the Scorched quality, I would want to know why.
As it is, the line between Hacker and Rigger has pretty much melted away, making your group's hacker your Matrix Guru, your driver and your electronics expert... I don't think they should receive any special treatment in chargen.
That said, you'll want a high Logic Attribute.
You'll want the Electronics and Cracking Skill groups to be at least 3 at chargen.
I'd also go into Locksmith(maglock), a couple of points into a vehicle skill, and - if you have points to spare - maybe one or two B/R skills.
Dumping lots of BP into resources will get you a small car, a couple of drones with good sensor suites, a tripped out commlink, and maybe even Skillwires.
With skillwires, you can purchase Activesofts to fill out what active skills you might be low on. You also make yourself a lot more versatile as you can be a crack rigger, sniper or B&E specialist with the right softs on hand.
As it is, the line between Hacker and Rigger has pretty much melted away, making your group's hacker your Matrix Guru, your driver and your electronics expert... I don't think they should receive any special treatment in chargen.
That said, you'll want a high Logic Attribute.
You'll want the Electronics and Cracking Skill groups to be at least 3 at chargen.
I'd also go into Locksmith(maglock), a couple of points into a vehicle skill, and - if you have points to spare - maybe one or two B/R skills.
Dumping lots of BP into resources will get you a small car, a couple of drones with good sensor suites, a tripped out commlink, and maybe even Skillwires.
With skillwires, you can purchase Activesofts to fill out what active skills you might be low on. You also make yourself a lot more versatile as you can be a crack rigger, sniper or B&E specialist with the right softs on hand.
| QUOTE |
| #1 Should that character then deserve a rebate on the BP of the negative Qualities? Why not? |
What? Which negative qualities? I don't understand.
| QUOTE |
| #2 Should he just gain positive qualities to equal the negative points differential? Why not? |
Which negative qualities? What are you talking about?
| QUOTE |
| #4 If no to any of the above, how many Skill rankings would be the minimum required, and in what Skills, would a character need to fall under the 'Hacker' category at chargen? |
In order to be a hacker you need to have the Hacking skill. That's pretty much makes you a hacker. Now you should have the Electronics Group and the Cracking group. Beyond that you need a good commlink and some software.
Hacker is not much of a character type anymore. It is a skill set, which many people can get. I don't even allow just regular hackers in my game. They are NPCs. If you want to do hacking then you also need to be more specialized and broad skilled (B&E, Rigging, etc.) and the ability to deal with combat.
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
| What? Which negative qualities? I don't understand. Which negative qualities? What are you talking about? |
Scorched, Sensitive Neural Structure, etc.
| QUOTE |
| #2 Should he just gain positive qualities to equal the negative points differential? Why not? |
Scorched, Sensitive Neural Structure, etc.
| QUOTE |
| In order to be a hacker you need to have the Hacking skill. That's pretty much makes you a hacker. |
So, by your logic, I could make a Mage with a mere 1 Skill Level in 'Hacking', and qualify for an extra 5 BP bonus on the above-listed Qualities?
For what it's worth this was one of the questions that I submitted when Bull was soliciting for the FAQ. Since that attempt at an unofficial FAQ has since been rolled up into FanPro's effort to put out an official FAQ, hopefully this one will be answered by the powers that be shortly.
You would'nt be a very good hacker with a 1 but there isn't anything else besides skill and amorality on the internet that makes a person a hacker.
ONe way you could make hackers more specific is require a minimum computer skill in order to get the Cracking group. That way it means more.
I'm not sure why you need anything on the build point table about it unless you want to restrict the Cracking Group to those with a Hacker Quality.
ONe way you could make hackers more specific is require a minimum computer skill in order to get the Cracking group. That way it means more.
I'm not sure why you need anything on the build point table about it unless you want to restrict the Cracking Group to those with a Hacker Quality.
I like the idea of a minimum comptuer skill (or computer knowledge) to be able to pick up any of the cracking group of skills.
Though like Garrowolf pointing out, you'd be a pretty drekky hacker with a skill at one.. probably get yourself scorched again....
Again, for negative qualities, as a GM, I usually ask my players why they chose the qualities, and - if possible - have it represented in their character background or their personalities... if they don't have a reason, that they just want the bonus BP, I won't allow it. Though I have been known to give things that the book says can't be a negative quality.
Like I let one of my characters have Sever Addiction(Nicotein) cause he litterally chain-smoked one cig after another. I also increased his lifestyle cost by 15% to account for the large cost of his habbit. He gets irratable after 10 mins without a smoke, and goes through withdrawal symptoms if he goes for more than 30 mins without a puff.
I think it was rather short-sighted for the developpers to say you can't use nicotein or alcohol for addictions.. cause they can be major detriments to a character... sure Addiction Mild could be attributed to anyone who is more than just a social drinker or smokes more than a pack a day, so I can see why the don't want to be handing out free BP.. I would only allow moderate or severe for these two substances. If you have a severe chain smoker or major alcoholic - and if the player can RP it properly without being an ass, I say go for it!
Though like Garrowolf pointing out, you'd be a pretty drekky hacker with a skill at one.. probably get yourself scorched again....
Again, for negative qualities, as a GM, I usually ask my players why they chose the qualities, and - if possible - have it represented in their character background or their personalities... if they don't have a reason, that they just want the bonus BP, I won't allow it. Though I have been known to give things that the book says can't be a negative quality.
Like I let one of my characters have Sever Addiction(Nicotein) cause he litterally chain-smoked one cig after another. I also increased his lifestyle cost by 15% to account for the large cost of his habbit. He gets irratable after 10 mins without a smoke, and goes through withdrawal symptoms if he goes for more than 30 mins without a puff.
I think it was rather short-sighted for the developpers to say you can't use nicotein or alcohol for addictions.. cause they can be major detriments to a character... sure Addiction Mild could be attributed to anyone who is more than just a social drinker or smokes more than a pack a day, so I can see why the don't want to be handing out free BP.. I would only allow moderate or severe for these two substances. If you have a severe chain smoker or major alcoholic - and if the player can RP it properly without being an ass, I say go for it!
That's always been one of the weakest parts of the edge/flaw (and now "quality") section of character creation. Shadowrun is not a class based system, why does it try to be?
| QUOTE (Dranem) |
| Though like Garrowolf pointing out, you'd be a pretty drekky hacker with a skill at one.. probably get yourself scorched again.... Again, for negative qualities, as a GM, I usually ask my players why they chose the qualities, and - if possible - have it represented in their character background or their personalities... if they don't have a reason, that they just want the bonus BP, I won't allow it. |
Backstory:
As a young teen, Maggie gets it into her head that she wants to become a Hacker. She learns just enough to be dangerous (Hacker Skill level 1), and then proceeds to get Scorched on her seventh VR adventure, which also resulted in her discovery of her previously unknown Sensitive Neural Structure problem. As a side effect of the Scorching, the stress brought about Maggie's Awakening, and she quickly set off down that path, but always remembers her brief sortee into hacking, and could do it again if she really had to.
Result:
For the cost of 4 BP for the Hacking Skill, I gain an extra +10 for the two Qualities, resulting in a +6BP bonus (+20 BP total for the 2 Qualities).
It ain't hard to explain away in backstory. I could even do better given more than two minutes.
I've always felt this one was relatively straight forward, though it does require A) a player not trying to abuse the system and B) A GM with a spine.
My Unofficial answer to this was that basically, it's a GM call, but that the player should be invested somewhat in being a hacker to get the "discount"... aka, some skill and some hard/software. Basically, they need to at least occasionally be a hacker. Flaws like this are something that should be a hinderance to the character on a semi-regular basis (Every couple game sessions, at least), and if they're not a hinderance, well... They're not flaws and not worth any points.
As a player, I'd never take anything like this just to massage some points. I may write these flaws into a background, but if they're just flavor, I wouldn;t bother with any points for them (And I would expect my GM not to mess with me over them because of that) or I'd accept the reduced point value willingly, knowing it won;t come up much, if at all.
As a GM, I wouldn;t let a player take a flaw like that unless it was something the player will actively come across on occasion (in this case, they need to be invested in being a hacker to some degree). If I ended up with a player who had a character from another game join my game, and he had stuff like this, I'd work it into the scenario somehow. In our old SR2-3 game, I had one player who very quickly came to regret taking the Colorblind and Albino flaws.
Bull
My Unofficial answer to this was that basically, it's a GM call, but that the player should be invested somewhat in being a hacker to get the "discount"... aka, some skill and some hard/software. Basically, they need to at least occasionally be a hacker. Flaws like this are something that should be a hinderance to the character on a semi-regular basis (Every couple game sessions, at least), and if they're not a hinderance, well... They're not flaws and not worth any points.
As a player, I'd never take anything like this just to massage some points. I may write these flaws into a background, but if they're just flavor, I wouldn;t bother with any points for them (And I would expect my GM not to mess with me over them because of that) or I'd accept the reduced point value willingly, knowing it won;t come up much, if at all.
As a GM, I wouldn;t let a player take a flaw like that unless it was something the player will actively come across on occasion (in this case, they need to be invested in being a hacker to some degree). If I ended up with a player who had a character from another game join my game, and he had stuff like this, I'd work it into the scenario somehow. In our old SR2-3 game, I had one player who very quickly came to regret taking the Colorblind and Albino flaws.
Bull
The problem is that it's just one more thing in the system that requires a) a player not abusing the system, and b) a GM with a spine. Which dredges up the old "why claim it's a book full of rules, if half of it's up to the GM to make a call on, anyways?!" argument, and yadda yadda.
Why not just clearly state it in the rulebook in the first place is what most of us are saying.
Why not just clearly state it in the rulebook in the first place is what most of us are saying.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| The problem is that it's just one more thing in the system that requires a) a player not abusing the system, and b) a GM with a spine. Which dredges up the old "why claim it's a book full of rules, if half of it's up to the GM to make a call on, anyways?!" argument, and yadda yadda. Why not just clearly state it in the rulebook in the first place is what most of us are saying. |
Really, it's just what a couple of you are saying. This, and the "mage" version of the flaws has been in the game for what, 10 years now, since the original Companion came out, and honestly? I think I've only seen stuff like this get complained about or even questioned only a few times during that period.
<shurg> I dunno why it's not strictly defined. Probably because they want to avoid a hardline "this is Class X" definition, especially with something that's a learned skill, not an inborn talent like magic is.
Plus, I can easily see if it was defined as "strictly X" that plenty of folks would argue it. It's too strict in it's definition, or it's too lenient, something. With magic, it's obvious. Heck, with technomancers, it's obvious. But hacking doesn't have an exclusive attribute to fall back on. I don;t exactly know where the line should be. I know where I'd put it, and it's a bit more strict than anyone else has suggested thus far.
But hell, it's a Roleplaying Game. The game is designed to be a cooperative system between the player and the GM. The game is supposed to be relatively fluid and flexible to fit the individual group playing it. That's the entire point behind "Rule Zero", the "Golden Rule", or whatever other asinine name that whole "If the rules don;t work, change them!" thingy most games throw in.
You want hard, inflexible rules, play a board game. Just not with us, because we absolutely love to tweak the rules and add in weierd stuff to our boardgames.
I really wish I could remember the rules to Talismanopoly, as we lost the written rules a few years back. The Talisman Board Game plus Monopoly... Made for a wierd, but incredibly fun game.Anyways, waaaay off topic here, so... back to what makes a Hacker
Bull
Guideline: 50 BP in Hacking Skills, Software, Commlink Stuff . . .
(same applies to mages, insert spells, foki, and so forth here)
(same applies to mages, insert spells, foki, and so forth here)
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
Hacker is not much of a character type anymore. It is a skill set, which many people can get. I don't even allow just regular hackers in my game. They are NPCs. If you want to do hacking then you also need to be more specialized and broad skilled (B&E, Rigging, etc.) and the ability to deal with combat. |
....well put.
Violet is not only a really good hacker, but also the team's B&E specialist, EW specialist, chief negotiator, field medic, and as of late, it's best gunbunny to boot (even better than my adept KK).
All for 400 BP's and 37 accumulated Karma (of which she spent 22).
| QUOTE (Bull @ Oct 12 2006, 09:38 AM) |
| Really, it's just what a couple of you are saying. This, and the "mage" version of the flaws has been in the game for what, 10 years now, since the original Companion came out, and honestly? I think I've only seen stuff like this get complained about or even questioned only a few times during that period. |
The "mage" version has never been a problem, because there's always been a clear litmus test for whether or not a character is to be considered magically active. There was always a priority choice, build points spent, positive quality taken, or some other clear yes/no flag that says does he have the mojo or doesn't he have it.
If I remember correctly, in previous editions, the simsense related flaws were introduced in the Rigger book, and you only got the higher points value if you had a control rig implanted, because at the time, that was a similar bright-line test for whether or not someone was a rigger.
Under SR4, however, there's no bright-line test, only characters that are more or less hackerish. This was something that should have been considered before porting the simsense flaws over with both point costs. Droping it to just a single points cost would have removed any posibility of arguement. If you want to avoid the appearance of having a class system, don't give alternate points costs for classes that don't really exist.
...and, maybe with the exception of a datajack, you really don't need much in the way of 'ware to be a good hacker unless you want augmentation in the meat world (like an additional IP or Bone Lacing). Even then, you could do that with bio so the Sensitive System quality is becomes kind of like free points as it is in the case of awakened characters.
If you need a hard line, a good rule of thumb would be to allow the "hacker" versions of the flaws if the character spends at least double that amount of BP's in the Cybercombat, Hacking, Computer, Data Search, or Software skills, their related skill groups, or the Tasking skill group. Someone taking Scorched, Sensitive Neural Structure, Simsense Vertigo (35 BP's for a hacker/TM, in other words maxing out their negative qualities) would have to spend at least 70 BPs on those skills, which would be like 4 in Cracking and 3 in Computer or something along those lines. That should eliminate the points being used as freebies.
| QUOTE (2bit) |
| If you need a hard line, a good rule of thumb would be to allow the "hacker" versions of the flaws if the character spends at least double that amount of BP's in the Cybercombat, Hacking, Computer, Data Search, or Software skills, their related skill groups, or the Tasking skill group. Someone taking Scorched, Sensitive Neural Structure, Simsense Vertigo (35 BP's for a hacker/TM, in other words maxing out their negative qualities) would have to spend at least 70 BPs on those skills, which would be like 4 in Cracking and 3 in Computer or something along those lines. That should eliminate the points being used as freebies. |
Straightforward. You mention "hacker/TM" in the writeup though, and really I would only require it for the hackers and not the technomancers. There's a pre-exisiting bright-line test for whether someone's a technomancer, so they shouldn't have to meet a minimum skill like the hackers do.
Fortune, that has got to be the lamest backstory I've heard of and a very weak defense for the qualities you've chosen.. you're also forgetting various other computer and electronic related skills that you would require (in my opinion) to even have a skill point in Hacking. So you're spending more points which will probably give you little bonus points.
I've played Decker/Mages in SR3, and it's not easy - dividing up the skills and such. But it has saved the character's life a couple of times, so I kept up improving both talent sets.
I've played Decker/Mages in SR3, and it's not easy - dividing up the skills and such. But it has saved the character's life a couple of times, so I kept up improving both talent sets.
| QUOTE (Dranem @ Oct 13 2006, 02:18 PM) |
| Fortune, that has got to be the lamest backstory I've heard of and a very weak defense for the qualities you've chosen.. |
And yet in less than two minutes I still managed to come up with something that would justify it.
| QUOTE |
| you're also forgetting various other computer and electronic related skills that you would require (in my opinion) to even have a skill point in Hacking. |
As you say, that stipulation would be purely House Rules, as there are no minimums or prerequisites that I know of that apply to this situation.
By the way, I am not in any way advocating anything, merely asking questions about discrepancies in the rules (which I don't appear to be alone in noticing), so get off your high horse.
| QUOTE (Dranem) |
| Fortune, that has got to be the lamest backstory I've heard of and a very weak defense for the qualities you've chosen.. you're also forgetting various other computer and electronic related skills that you would require (in my opinion) to even have a skill point in Hacking. So you're spending more points which will probably give you little bonus points. |
would it be a lame backstory if it didn't come with flaws? i would say no. ergo, i wouldn't call it a lame backstory.
| QUOTE (SR4 P19) |
| Hackers are charactors that specialise in computers, and accessing and manipulating data via the Matrix - either using augmented reality or going full-bore and using virtual reality to help them do thier dirty work. |
The only canon Hacker is the Hacker Archetype. There is no other useful canon defination of hacker, believe me, I searched.
So by RAW, no player generated PC can be a hacker if we do not know what the defination of a hacker is. The GM can certainly come up with one, but absent any rule that states specifically that say that the GM can define "hacker" as he wishes, no player generated PC can be a canon "hacker" and they are stuck with the 5BP versions of Scorched, Sensitive Neural Structure and Simsense Vertigo. The only way that I see a PC getting those Negative Qualities at 10 BPs is during gameplay and playing the Hacker Archetype, except that they don't.
We may attempt to derive a mechanical defination from the above quote:
1) Specialise in computers - Specialisation in Computers
2) Accessing and manipulating data via Matrix - Hacking (per similar defination of Hacking as compared to Hacker)
So that's all the writers wrote, folks.
I really missed you, toturi.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I really missed you, toturi. |
I miss me sometimes too.
| QUOTE (Dranem @ Oct 12 2006, 11:18 PM) |
| Fortune, that has got to be the lamest backstory I've heard of and a very weak defense for the qualities you've chosen.. you're also forgetting various other computer and electronic related skills that you would require (in my opinion) to even have a skill point in Hacking. So you're spending more points which will probably give you little bonus points. |
Well, he's not really "forgetting" them, since they only exist in your mind, is he? You have one set of requirements for "a hacker," and everyone else on God's Green Earth ™ has another. Funny how that works out, huh? That's really weird, how you might think a hacker is one thing, and Fortune might think a hacker is something else entirely. Maybe someone should start a thread and try to bring that rulesbook oddity up.
Holy shit, look where I am!
Toturi and Critas are, by far, my favorite DS posters.
Regardless of the quality of Fortune's backstory, it explains it.
I am 100% against anything that can be justified via backstory. Like Fortune, give me 2 minutes and I'll throw you something lame, give me a week, and it will be a novella, if it means I get special stuff.
And when you get in to judging backstories, then you're on a real slippery slope. Does that mean that the person with more writing skill gets more power? If I can write a compelling and visceral description of my PC's life, which just so happens to include him being granted a Rating 6 weapon focus and the love of Lowfyr, does that mean I should get it? Even if I wrote it really really well?
Conversly, if I can't write to save my life, but love to game, will I be denied even the basic equipment because my backstory doesn't justify it?
If a character claims to be a hacker, give them the bp. If they never go near a computer for the first 2 runs, then all their karma goes to reducing those qualities from 10 to 5 pts. Easy enough. It's in the GM's hands.
I've also found that most of the flaws that give more BP to a hacker/TM are flaws that no right minded hacker/TM would ever take....
Regardless of the quality of Fortune's backstory, it explains it.
I am 100% against anything that can be justified via backstory. Like Fortune, give me 2 minutes and I'll throw you something lame, give me a week, and it will be a novella, if it means I get special stuff.
And when you get in to judging backstories, then you're on a real slippery slope. Does that mean that the person with more writing skill gets more power? If I can write a compelling and visceral description of my PC's life, which just so happens to include him being granted a Rating 6 weapon focus and the love of Lowfyr, does that mean I should get it? Even if I wrote it really really well?
Conversly, if I can't write to save my life, but love to game, will I be denied even the basic equipment because my backstory doesn't justify it?
If a character claims to be a hacker, give them the bp. If they never go near a computer for the first 2 runs, then all their karma goes to reducing those qualities from 10 to 5 pts. Easy enough. It's in the GM's hands.
I've also found that most of the flaws that give more BP to a hacker/TM are flaws that no right minded hacker/TM would ever take....
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| If a character claims to be a hacker, give them the bp. If they never go near a computer for the first 2 runs, then all their karma goes to reducing those qualities from 10 to 5 pts. Easy enough. It's in the GM's hands. |
I could live with that, in either official or house rule capacity.
| QUOTE |
| I've also found that most of the flaws that give more BP to a hacker/TM are flaws that no right minded hacker/TM would ever take.... |
Well, of course, there is that!
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| Toturi and Critas are, by far, my favorite DS posters. |
You just haven't got to know me yet. Trust me, I'm cute.
But you don't inspire true fear or awe in me yet. I'll give you time.
My simple rule:
Scorched / Snestive Nerual structure:
The 'bonus' points can ONLY be spent on HACKING type skills, abilities, merits....
Sovles the problem nicely...
If you a serious hacker, you can easily spend all the 'bonus' points on 'hacker' type skills...
If you a 'partial' hacker, then you only get the limited effect.
(so yes if you take them you probably are going to take the 'full' penalty, but then atleast it answer the question of 'why')
Nobody gets 'extra' points for something they will never use, since the points they get, can ONLY be used for 'legitimate' use.
The closest to a 'freebie' you could get is taking them in comuter/electronics (I.E. 'legal' computer use, and so very unlikely to ever get burned... BUT then not going to get ALOT of bonus for it).
Scorched / Snestive Nerual structure:
The 'bonus' points can ONLY be spent on HACKING type skills, abilities, merits....
Sovles the problem nicely...
If you a serious hacker, you can easily spend all the 'bonus' points on 'hacker' type skills...
If you a 'partial' hacker, then you only get the limited effect.
(so yes if you take them you probably are going to take the 'full' penalty, but then atleast it answer the question of 'why')
Nobody gets 'extra' points for something they will never use, since the points they get, can ONLY be used for 'legitimate' use.
The closest to a 'freebie' you could get is taking them in comuter/electronics (I.E. 'legal' computer use, and so very unlikely to ever get burned... BUT then not going to get ALOT of bonus for it).
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