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I had this Idea when reading the favorite min/max thread.

Without external body armor, so naked, design a starting character that can survive a direct hit by some gun. Use the link below that would allow the character to survive 75% of the time on damage resistance tests. Assume that the firing character had one success and hit the this character. If also needed assume the hit was to center mass. Magic based characters must be able to cast any required spells in 3 rounds and last for 20 rounds of combat with no drain 75% of the time, consult the probability page. Anything spell locked must have be castable by the character at the level needed.

Shadowrun Dice Probabilities

Points will be awarded as follows:
+ force*damage level of blast (damage level values: L=1, M=2, S=3, D=4)
- damage to character (L=10, M=20, S=30, D=1000)

Ties will be determined after the checks in this order, first clear winner wins.
1. No Magic
2. Highest Essence
3. Highest Bio Index

So a person who develops a character that can survive a 9M blast 75% of the time, that leaves a Light wound would be awarded 8 points. In that case with reductions in the force of the blast you would need to roll 24+ dice to survive with Light damage and 45+ dice to come out with no damage.

I kinda did this off the top of my head with little prep, so please rip it apart but please try to provide constructive critisism. I think this idea could be fun and move into other areas like, most damage against X character using a baseball bat/sword/wet noodle.

Starting characters? Cultured bioware? What are the parameters?
Just remember that the best way to survive is a high body+combat pool. Anyone can get a gun's power down to 2 with armour, the hard part is getting enough body to outroll the guys rolling 14 dice, TN2 to hit averaging 12 successes. So, as long as you roll 24+ (12 successes TN 4) dice and get the power down to 2, you're good to go usually.

The challenge specifies that the attacker has hit with one success. Presumably you're not allowed to dodge.
Yeah, I'm not entering the challengs, just stating that it's the best way. The trouble with the challenge is that the successes increase the damage, so what will cause one pistol to bounce because it only got to 9D vs 7 Ballistic, causes another to kill ya because it got raised to 11D making it a TN 6 to resist.


Edit: My character (in 24 more karma) survives because he rolls 24 Combat Pool and has a Body of 5 and 10 Ballistic Armour available. What I choose to roll and how is determined by how many successes the other guy rolled. If I can roll vs a TN of 2 (soak it) or if the damage is more than 13 (giving me a TN 3+ to soak) is what determines how I roll.
Bulletproof Troll (high cash/karma)

Body 18 (20)
Four cyberlimbs, cyber torso, cyber skull, all armored to the max, all delta ware
Ballistic Armor 6
Essence 2.87
Best 75% survival: 9D to nothing (36 pts) 98.70% of the time
And the winner is...

Mundane Troll.
No cyber
No Bio

Body: 11(12)
STR: 7
Qui: 5
CHA: 1
INT: 4

Essence 6.0
Bio Index 9.0

Rolling 12 dice against an infinityD shot will give me Deadly damage 100% of the time that I will survive (no overdamage can be done with 1 success) for a grand score of infinity*4 - 1000
The Jopp
Tinkergnome, he said STARTING character. Deltagrade cyberlimbs/torso run in the range of 6000000,00+ Nuyen.

Your gaming sessions scare me if that is one of your starting characters.
Priority A: $1,000,000
Priority B: Attributes 27 pts.
Priority C: Troll
Priority D: Skills
Priority E: Mundane

PA Attributes:
6P BOD 11(15)
5P QUI 4(7)
1P STR 5
3P CHA 1
6P INT 4
6P WIL 6
Essence: 0.8
Bio Index 3.8

Combat Pool: 8
Relative ballistic cyber armor: 10

Alpha Obvious Cybertorso Ess: 1.2 Price: $180,000
w/10 pts. ballistic Ess: 0 Price: $25,000
2 Obvious Cyberlegs Ess: 2 Price: $150,000
w/3 quickness (total leg quickness 7) Ess: 0 Price: $180,000
w/10 pts. ballistic Ess: 0 Price: $50,000
2 Obvious Cyberarms Ess: 2 Price: $150,000
w/3 quickness (total arm quickness 7) Ess: 0 Price: $180,000
w/10 pts. ballistic Ess: 0 Price: $50,000

Totals: Ess cost: 5.2 Pricetag: $965,000

23 dice to resist a 14D shot will give me no damage 95.34% of the time for a grand score of 56.
And just what type of 'gun' do you mean? Anything less than a shotgun and they automatically survive if the shooter only has one success.
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Oct 22 2003, 04:36 PM)
Tinkergnome, he said STARTING character. Deltagrade cyberlimbs/torso run in the range of 6000000,00+ Nuyen.

That'd be because I missed that part (and asked about it somewhere above, actually). A starting character would be:

Bulletproof Troll
Body 14 (18)
Essence .6
Bio Index 1.4
Ballistic Armor 6
Obvious arms (alpha), obvious legs, obvious torso (A), obvious skull (A), 30 points of armor plating spread around, Suprathyroid gland

Soaks the same damage, but at 95.67% instead.

[edit] Added Suprathyroid gland, the only bio he has. For those curious, he has 110,000 left [/edit]
Well, the obvious choice is a troll, first off. We're talking raw Body and Ballistic rating, so the key is only the cheapest (in terms of Essence and Bio Index) starting character options for maximizing these aforementioned two statistics.

So we'll start off with a Troll.

We'll give him maximum Body, with Exceptional Attribute(Body) and 5 levels of Bonus Attribute Point(Body). This leads to a Body rating of 17 and 1 level of Dermal Plating. We give him Toughness, and we have Body of 17 and 2 levels of Dermal Plating:

Body: 17(19)
Ballistic Armor: 0
Essence: 6.0
Bio Index: 0.0

Now, time to really consider our options.

First and foremost, no matter how many dice we roll, the lower the TN#, the better. Thus, while adding four dermal armor dice with a Dermal Sheath is well and good, it's ultimately not as efficient on a sheer success probability scale as opting for Orthoskin(Rating 3). Also, the only ballistic defense increasing cyberware is bone lacing(Titanium), which we can only really purchase as alphaware given basic character creation restraints. Bioware can only be standard grade. We'll start with this combination, leading to the following statistics:

Body: 17(21)
Ballistic Armor: 2
Essence: 4.2
Bio Index: 1.5

Now, the nitty gritty details. We may want to add certain pieces of Body increasing bioware just for completeness' sake, since we can do so at a(relatively) low Bio Index cost if we're careful. Obvious choice here is the genetech augmentation of Calcitonin, for 0.5 Bio Index. Another is slightly more costly; Suprathyroid Gland. We'll just add both, since winning an award isn't really something I'm too concerned about in this exercise:

Body: 19(23)
Ballistic Armor: 2
Essence: 4.2
Bio Index: 3.4

That's about it. If you didn't care about second-hand parts and we weren't really considering Essence as being important, you could go for a cybertorso and cyberarms and legs, and layer on as much ballistic and ablative armor as possible.

Anyone think they can do better?

Oh, statistics here. Ares Predator, no armor. 9M base, 1 success. Chances of resisting? 87.63% with 1 karmic reroll. 33% otherwise. Not bad for a character in street clothing.
I think you can only choose binus attribute once.
Plus he said no armor, so I would assume anything with a ballistic rating is to not be considered.
QUOTE (Shadow)
I think you can only choose binus attribute once.
Plus he said no armor, so I would assume anything with a ballistic rating is to not be considered.

He said "without EXTERNAL body armor". SO any cyberware that gives armor is ok to use.
Heres my Bullet proof Troll

Troll of course
Exceptional Attribute (Body)
bonus Att: Body

Body 8 (+5 Racial, +1 Dermal) 14 unmodified
Super Thyroid Gland +1 Bod
Titanium Bone lacing +2 Body
Dermal Sheaf Lvl3 +4 Body

New body: 21

Essence 2.52
Bio Index 1.54

I am going for no damage here.

Edit(I miss calculated an my Troll had a 21 bod)

So lets go test it againsts a 9S.

We get a probability of.... 2.34% that sucks.

How about agains a 9M?

Somewhat better at 19.89%

a 9L???

Still not the prerequisite at 69.44%

This doesn't seem right but hey you can't argue with computers.

So essentially any guy with a Heavy pistol can take out a troll or at least damage him badly.

This is without any ballistic armor applied or rerolling for Karma.

Now if you add ballistic armor and such this guy is unstoppable, but this was calculated without armor.
QUOTE (Buzzed)
Alpha Obvious Cybertorso Ess: 1.2 Price: $180,000
w/10 pts. ballistic Ess: 0 Price: $25,000
2 Obvious Cyberlegs Ess: 2 Price: $150,000
w/3 quickness (total leg quickness 7) Ess: 0 Price: $180,000
w/10 pts. ballistic Ess: 0 Price: $50,000
2 Obvious Cyberarms Ess: 2 Price: $150,000
w/3 quickness (total arm quickness 7) Ess: 0 Price: $180,000
w/10 pts. ballistic Ess: 0 Price: $50,000

That's only 7 points of ballistic armor, by the way. There are seven hit locations to divide armor among, the fact that M&M says 5 is misleading since it then goes on to say you average it among all locations. Since the limbs are armored seperately, you have to use them in the equation smile.gif
There are seven hit locations to divide armor among
wait, huh? am i just losing it? 2 legs + 2 arms +1 torso +1 head=6 locations right? how do you get seven? sorry for making you explain, i'm not thinking that clearly tonight
Your back, the torso is actually 2 locations.
torso is 2 locations... back and front

::Edit:: ack, shadow beat me to it. Anyway, I haven't seen anyone use the Toughness edge yet.
My choice - troll (duh) with maxed-out Body (11), Bonus Attribute/Body, and the Toughness Edge. Body is now 12, rolling 14 dice for damage resistance.

For cyber and bioware, give him kevlar bone lacing and orthoskin: 2. This is the cheapest Essense and bio cost to get the important part, the ballistic protection. With 2 points of ballistic armor, that 9M becomes 7M (which in SR is the equivalent of 6M...). The kevlar lacing also gives him +1 Body.

Rolling 15 dice to resist a Target Number of 7 (effectively 6), his chances of getting at least 2 successes are pretty good.

Natural Bod=11
Exceptiona Attribute=12
Bonus Attribute Point=13
Titanium Bone Lace=16

Now for the damage Resistence
Orthoskin 2= 1pt BAL
Titanium Bone Lace= 1pt BAL
Dermal Armor (trollness)= +1D

Rolls 18 dice against -2TN

So, let's see how he fairs

Fichetti Security 500 (6L)= 99.9% no damage
Ares Predator (9M)= 35.21% No Damage, 87.2% only a Light Wound
Defiance T-250 (10S)= 2.99% No Damage, 23.37% only a Light wound, 73.55% Only a Medium Wound
Uzi III (6M): 99.62% No Damage, 9.99% only a light wound
AK-97 (8M)= Same as Predators
AP Grenade (10S(f)): 6.53% No Damage, 35.21% only a Light wound, 87.2 only a Medium wound
HE Grenade (10S): same as T-250
Panther Assualt Cannon (18D)= 0.00% no Damage, 0.00% only a Light, 0.00% only a Medium, 1.19% only a Serious.

So, this trolls ability to not take Damage Lines up
Light Pistols: 99.9%
Heavy Pistols: 35.21%
SMGs: 99.62%
Assault Rifles: 35.21
AP grenades: 6.53%
HE grenades: 2.99%
Assault Cannons : yeah, right

So, what does this little exercise teach us.... WEAR YOUR FRICKIN' ARMOR!
Alright, this stuff is all theoretical. Let's just say all the spells were cast before losing his magical ability, shall we (if not, then this is just for fun and profit ;p).

Obviously a Troll. Duh.

Exceptional Attribute (Body)
Bonus Attribute Point (Body)

Body: 13 (20) +3 from Increased Body = 23
Quickness: 6 +3 from Increased Quickness = 9
Strength: 5
Charisma: 1
Intelligence: 1
Willpower: 5
Essence: 2.52
Bio Index: 3.40

Combat Pool: 6 +1 from Increased Quickness, +3 from Combat Sense = 10

Armor: 1/3 and +6/+6 (Armor Spell)

Increase Cybered Attribute (Quickness): 6
Increase Cybered Attribute (Body): 6
Armor: 6
Combat Sense: 6
Physical Barrier: 6
Redirect: 6

Probability of survival vs. a 9M shot... 100% (33 dice, TN2). This is, of course, assuming he got everything cast on himself before going and getting all this stuff installed. As well as that he didn't get the Physical Barrier spell up in time to stop it, or the Redirect spell up to send it right back in his face as Stun. biggrin.gif

I'll probably lose, but, oh well, it was fun being silly like that. nyahnyah.gif
A magic character will automatically lose this thing, being screened out first, but here's one anyways, to see how effective they can be within the contest guidelines. So let's look at this guy. His three spells will be Bullet Armor at Force: 6 into a Sustaining Focus, Bullet Barrier at Force: 6, and Deflect at Force: 6 into a Sustaining Focus. He has 7 spellcasting dice, 7 more from Spell Pool, and 2 more from his Totem bonus, and a Willpower of 9. He uses 10 dice for casting and 6 to help resist Drain for each spell. Rolling 15 dice to resist 4L, 4M, and 4M, he is likely to completely resist Drain for all three spells. When the bullet hits, it will be weakened by 6 (or more) by the bullet barrier, and things like light pistols and Ares Viper flechettes will be stopped cold. Then the Bullet Armor will reduce it by 6 more (to a minimum of 2). After that, he has 8 Body (and 1 more from Toughness), 10 Combat Pool, and however many extra dice he gets from the Deflect spell, all very likely to be rolling against a TN of 2. Bullets will be very ineffective against this character. smile.gif

Here is the breakdown:
Gnome: 10
Albino: 0
Edges: 5
Flaws: -5
Resources: 25 (650,000 - 10% = 585,000)
Attributes: 52
(22 points, then +4 from race, +1 from Albinism, and +1 from an Edge).
Skills: 18
Magic (Sorcerer): 25
TOTAL: 120

Albino Gnome(what else would he be?) Sorcerer - Shamanic/Firebringer Totem
Body: 8
Quickness: 5
Strength: 2
Charisma: 2
Intelligence: 6
Willpower: 9
Essence: 6
Magic: 6
Reaction: 5
Initiative: 5 + 1d6
Combat Pool: 10
Spell Pool: 7

Active Skills -
Etiquette: 2
Pistols/Colt Manhunter: 4/6
Sorcery/Spellcasting: 5/7
Stealth: 5

Knowledge Skills -
English/Cityspeak: 4/6 R/W: 2/-
Japanese: 4 R/W: 2
Magical Background: 6
Magical Threats: 6
Megacorporate Politics: 6
Seattle Underworld: 6
Spell Design: 6

Spells -
Stunbolt: 6
Heal: 6
Bullet Armor: 6*
Bullet Barrier: 6*
Deflect: 6*
* = Fetish for -1 Drain

Edges -
Bonus Attribute Point: Body

Flaws -
(From Albinism)
-->Allergy: Sunlight, Mild
Bad Karma

Contacts -
Fixer (Level 1)
Talismonger (Level 1)

Bonded Foci -
Sustaining Focus (Rating 6): Bullet Armor
Sustaining Focus (Rating 6): Deflect

Note: Buys 7 more spellpoints with resources.
What about using the trauma dampener or the other one (that completely removes one box, can't remember the name) so the character only takes 9 boxes of physical. Using that even an extremely low body character could take effectively serious damage from a deadly shot. From the scale used above (TN penalties * -10) that's -40 for the trauma dampener and -30 from the other one.

There are things like the guardian angel nano-med-kit-cyberware-thing that apply first-aid every time you take a wound. If you take serious, but then reduce it to moderate with such a system, does it count as a serious or moderate wound?

Anyway: I consider this this to be a somewhat limited discussion if you don't consider magic. We already have the fact that the character is naked, which by my interpretation means he can't use most foci or fetishes. Characters could sustain spells, but each spell so-sustained would give them a -20 on the final score (again, TN penalty * -10, that's a -10 for characters with focused concentration) or similar. It becomes somewhat harder for mages if even one spell gives them effectively a moderate wound.
The Platelet Factory is indeed very useful for surviving gunfights when you can't avoid getting hit, although it only gets rid of a box for moderate wounds or better. I'd expect it to be "basic equipment" for a Samurai, and certainly in ths little contest. The Trauma Damper is good for survival, but actually can degrade performance by boosting TN's.

As for a mage, casting a few concentric bullet barriers would allow them to survive shots from just about any gun. The only trick would be doing it without drain, and its not to hard to min-max a mage for that. The trauma dmaper would definatley be helpful here, since its probably a good idea to keep each barrier at force 5 anyhow.
Oh, knew I forgot something. The Damper. Yeah, throw that in, and, to make it legal, add in that he Geased up to six points of Magic from the Cyberware, but lost a few points due to Bioware.

So he takes some Physical drain? So what? grinbig.gif
Why is it 5 hit locations? Cause the arms are counted as a pair. The legs are also counted as a pair. In a gunfight, it is hard to target the left leg when both the left and right legs are dancing around, you can only aim for them as a group. 7 - 2 = 5!

M&M pg. 35.
"...for each of the 5 possible hit locations: arms, legs, head, front torso, and back torso."

Notice the use of words, "arms, legs"
QUOTE (tanka @ Oct 23 2003, 12:51 PM)
Oh, knew I forgot something.  The Damper.  Yeah, throw that in, and, to make it legal, add in that he Geased up to six points of Magic from the Cyberware, but lost a few points due to Bioware.

So he takes some Physical drain?  So what?  grinbig.gif

Trauma Damper is cultured bioware. Starting chars cant have cultured bioware. And a starting character cant have 6 points of geasa. That would mean they have a 0 magic = mundane.
Yes they can. nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE (Sphynx)
Yes they can. nyahnyah.gif


By canon rules, they can't.
Technically, isn't it suggested?

The whole 8/6 rule?

The wording is annoying. The best solution, and one consistant with the example is that you take the average armor value across both arms and the average value across both legs and use that for the "arms" and "legs" values in the equation. It's kind of dumb that two legs, each with 10 points of armor would come together and somehow make 20 points of stopping power.
I only lose about 3 or 4 points of Magic from Cybeware, total, and the other two from Bioware. I'd Gease the Cyberware loss, then couldn't do jack about the Bioware, so I'd be at 4 Magic Rating.

As for no cultured, I always took that as culturing something like Muscle Toner or something. But, it could be read that way too. If it is, then I don't have the Damper, but still get the Gease for Cyberware loss, but not Bioware loss.

Put those through a few Sustained Spell Foci and I'm good to go!
QUOTE (Buzzed)
QUOTE (Sphynx @ Oct 23 2003, 01:08 PM)
Yes they can.  nyahnyah.gif


By canon rules, they can't.

Yes they can, the closest thing to Canon is the FAQ which states what the book states, that it's controlled by "availability". But, IF you need an official call, than no Cultured. nyahnyah.gif

..allow the character to survive 75% of the time...

Ties will be determined after the checks in this order, first clear winner wins.
1. No Magic
2. Highest Essence
3. Highest Bio Index
OK... I'll give it a stab.

Shapeshifter. No magic. Highest Essence (8.0). No loss to Bio Index.

Takes 30D and stands up the next round 5 times out of 6 (83.3% survival).
Pah, Regeneration. Why didn't anybody think of that? sarcastic.gif

Probably because that isn't Munchkinism, that's just a real character idea. biggrin.gif
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