Ok, all you GMs out there, I have a question for all you guys.
Do you allow your players to buy Chameleon suits [6/4] (Availability 10R)with all the armor mods on it for CharGen? Out of the last 6 character sheets that have been passed by me, 4 of them have had at least 3 of the following:
Chemical Protection - Rank 6 (Availabilty 8 )
Fire Resistance - Rank 6 (Availability 4)
Insulation - Rank 6 (Availability 4)
Nonconductivity - Rank 6 (Availabiltiy 6)
Shock Frills (Availabilty 6R)
Thermal Damping - Rank 6 (Availabiltiy 10F)
The way I figure it, each mod adds to the base availability of the armor, hence if you had the works (every mod) it would come out to Availability 48F.
I run vision and hearing devices the same way, each mod raising the availabiltiy of the base item.
So back to my question: Would you allow a player to buy a chameleon suit, with all the mods, at CharGen?
Full Version: Chameleon Suit /w the works
Nope. Though if they have a good story anything is possible. An entire unit that quit/defected with their gear might be amusing.
Took my last character 24 weeks to find set of armor with the mods I wanted.
Took my last character 24 weeks to find set of armor with the mods I wanted.
I would allow it, as it is withing RAW.
But, I would ask for a nice story about where/why/how the char got the gear. All the more ammo for me to have something come back from their past one day
But, I would ask for a nice story about where/why/how the char got the gear. All the more ammo for me to have something come back from their past one day
46-2
I'd say no unless there was a damn good reason a starting character would have something like that. Not just good, damn good. I think it's to much for a starting game. yes, mages get invisibility, but they have to sustain it, and that doesn't count all the different resitances inside as well.
I'd say no unless there was a damn good reason a starting character would have something like that. Not just good, damn good. I think it's to much for a starting game. yes, mages get invisibility, but they have to sustain it, and that doesn't count all the different resitances inside as well.
If the mod is a +x Avail mod, then add to the armor. If not, it is its own Avail. If a piece of armor has both, a +Avail mod and a flat Avail mod, I'd add the +Avail to the armor Avail to be check against 12 and check the flat Avail against 12. If both pass, then the armor is ok. Same with vision and hearing devices.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| I'd say no unless there was a damn good reason a starting character would have something like that. Not just good, damn good. I think it's to much for a starting game. yes, mages get invisibility, but they have to sustain it, and that doesn't count all the different resitances inside as well. |
So, would you allow an Armor Jacket with the same Modifications?
Chameleon suit isn't any sort of issue. Trying to wear armor with all those layers is. You'll end up looking like a sumo wrestler in a snowsuit. Rule books would be quoted, explained, and then promptly and sharply brought down on the player's empty skull. 
Of course he is still free to purchase it. Just is he won't like the results of wearing it.
Of course he is still free to purchase it. Just is he won't like the results of wearing it.
I don't think my GM really thought all that hard about letting my character have the Cham suit with all the mods, it is available at CharGen by the rules. Although it could be considered totally unbalanced, but everyone can get it so maybe not. It has saved my character's ass on more than one occasion.
Most recently my character was in a car that got the gas tank punctured and then blown up. The GM let me apply 6 fire resistance dice plus 6 Impact (Cham suit and helmet) in addition to high orkish Body to the damage resistance roll versus the explosion. And he's got Platelet Factories, so he walked away without wound penalties and the rest of the team was seriously messed up.
Most recently my character was in a car that got the gas tank punctured and then blown up. The GM let me apply 6 fire resistance dice plus 6 Impact (Cham suit and helmet) in addition to high orkish Body to the damage resistance roll versus the explosion. And he's got Platelet Factories, so he walked away without wound penalties and the rest of the team was seriously messed up.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| Trying to wear armor with all those layers is. You'll end up looking like a sumo wrestler in a snowsuit. Rule books would be quoted, explained, and then promptly and sharply brought down on the player's empty skull. |
Where in the rule book does it equate Modification Ratings with Armor Ratings for the purpose of the Armor Layering (recommended IIRC) rules?
| QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 12 2006, 09:55 PM) |
| Chameleon suit isn't any sort of issue. Trying to wear armor with all those layers is. You'll end up looking like a sumo wrestler in a snowsuit. Rule books would be quoted, explained, and then promptly and sharply brought down on the player's empty skull. Of course he is still free to purchase it. Just is he won't like the results of wearing it. |
Not layers, they are modifications to the existing armor.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Where in the rule book does it equate Modification Ratings with Armor Ratings for the purpose of the Armor Layering (recommended IIRC) rules? |
In the margin written in red ink next to the pizza sauce stain. IIRC
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| Chameleon suit isn't any sort of issue. Trying to wear armor with all those layers is. You'll end up looking like a sumo wrestler in a snowsuit. Rule books would be quoted, explained, and then promptly and sharply brought down on the player's empty skull. Of course he is still free to purchase it. Just is he won't like the results of wearing it. |
Don't mean to jump in on the quote-slingin', but in the Sixth World most of the mods are probably thin layers of advanced polymers.
| QUOTE (Glayvin34 @ Oct 13 2006, 11:57 AM) |
| Most recently my character was in a car that got the gas tank punctured and then blown up. The GM let me apply 6 fire resistance dice plus 6 Impact (Cham suit and helmet) in addition to high orkish Body to the damage resistance roll versus the explosion. |
That probably should have only been half (ie. 3) for the Armor itself, but otherwise that would be correct.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Where in the rule book does it equate Modification Ratings with Armor Ratings for the purpose of the Armor Layering (recommended IIRC) rules? |
It is somewhat vague, particularly on exact implementation. Hope the FAQ clears that up. However there are reasonable interpretations that give results with some sense of verisimilitude. Weenie rules lawyer whining might ensue, but I have little patience for such.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| That probably should have only been half (ie. 3) for the Armor itself, but otherwise that would be correct. |
That's what I was thinking, but who am I to argue with the GM?
I understand your point, but as has been said, such Modifications could be made up of micro-layers of advanced polymers, or the Armor itself could even be made partly by material responsible for the protection. With the lack of further explanation (hopefully in Arsenal), the rules as they stand can be easily explained in-game.
| QUOTE (Glayvin34) | ||
Don't mean to jump in on the quote-slingin', but in the Sixth World most of the mods are probably thin layers of advanced polymers. |
There are 6 of those "thin" layers there.
That isn't to say I really care that much about the numbers. Because armour does not success make, and environmental damage is usually relatively rare. My reaction will also depend greatly on the player and history. But we are definately going to 'chat' about it one way or another.
So no player can buy magesight goggles, and put any mods on them, since Magesight are 12 Availability?
And you can't put chem protection and anything on armor, since Chem is 8?
Does that rule apply to vehicle sensors? Such that you can't have more than 3 sensors, since most are ava 4?
And you can't put chem protection and anything on armor, since Chem is 8?
Does that rule apply to vehicle sensors? Such that you can't have more than 3 sensors, since most are ava 4?
If the rules had meant that the Modifications had an Availability of '+X', I'm sure that important little tidbit would have been errata'd by now, as it was mentioned numerous times right after the original release. The 'add-on' items that are meant to add to the Availability of the main object are clearly marked as such.
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| So no player can buy magesight goggles, and put any mods on them, since Magesight are 12 Availability? And you can't put chem protection and anything on armor, since Chem is 8? Does that rule apply to vehicle sensors? Such that you can't have more than 3 sensors, since most are ava 4? |
At CharGen you cannot buy anything with 13 or higher availability. That is plain black text.
The adding of mods to the base item availability is my own thing to keep munchkins from starting out with something that started out as <12 and adding tons of mods on it, that logicly would add to the rarity of the item or how hard it would be to get because it is a custom job.
Most of the characters I create usually have contacts and glasses/goggles because I cant fit all the mods onto just one without going over my self imposed rule.
I'm more than willing to use the rule in my games, since I use it myself on my own characters.
I admit that I dont use this rule on everything, or your custom commlinks would be really low (IE Signal 2 and Response 4 or Signal 4 and Response 2 [pg 240]) Who wants to use a custom commlink which can only reach 100m or one that can reach 1km but only has 2 Response? (Rank 2 System and Programs by effect)
The most you can get for response and signal is 5 at chargen so you arnt maxing it out anyways.
Thinking about it though, I should since I see so many players starting out with a custom 5/5/5/5 commlink and no one ever buys the stock commlinks that are in the book. Not everyone and their brother is going to have thier own custom boxed commlink, most people in real life dont have thier own custom computers, but bringing real life examples into this will degenerate fast.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| If the rules had meant that the Modifications had an Availability of '+X', I'm sure that important little tidbit would have been errata'd by now, as it was mentioned numerous times right after the original release. The 'add-on' items that are meant to add to the Availability of the main object are clearly marked as such. |
So what is the point of having the availability on the mods then?
So in game, I can buy an armored jacket with an availability 2 with all the mods, but only have to search for an availability 2 item?
Honestly, that armor costs like 20k+ (or even more, don't have my book). If they want to buy armor that expensive, let them, it's going to get lost/leftbehind/destroyed in a few sessions anyway unless they never use it, in which case, they wasted 20k. If its cheaper than 20k+, then it's probably not something to let in the game.
The availabilities for armor mods aren't and should be like the goggles/glasses/contacts mods.
Besides, stealth suits are crack monkey anyway, -4 dice to perception tests?
The availabilities for armor mods aren't and should be like the goggles/glasses/contacts mods.
Besides, stealth suits are crack monkey anyway, -4 dice to perception tests?
| QUOTE (Konsaki @ Oct 13 2006, 12:41 PM) |
| So what is the point of having the availability on the mods then? So in game, I can buy an armored jacket with an availability 2 with all the mods, but only have to search for an availability 2 item? |
Well, most of the Mods have an Availability higher than 2.
One would assume that you either take the highest number.
... or better yet ...
Roll for the Jacket first, and if successful, then make an additional roll at the Availability level of each seperate Mod in question. If one (or more) test(s) fail, then the player can take the Armor without that Mod, or start looking all over again.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Well, most of the Mods have an Availability higher than 2. One would assume that you either take the highest number. ... or better yet ... Roll for the Jacket first, and if successful, then make a additional roll at the Availability level of each seperate Mod in question. If one (or more) test(s) fail, the the player can take the Armor without that Mod, or start looking all over again. |
No offense, but I would think that second option would be just asinine. I admit that they shouldnt get it at CharGen, but the way you want it rolled out, they could be looking forever due to a failed roll. If you add the availabilites together, they will eventually find it, but it will still take them a longass time.
You can use that rule in your own game if you wish, but I'm not one to submit my players to that endless loop that could take years for them to find that item. I just dont want them to have the 'Best' item at chargen, not keep them from ever having it. They should have to work at least some for it.
I really don't see any of the tests being regularly failed, barring Glitches, with seperate Availabilities being rather low. All you are adding is a small time factor, as your Contacts search for just the right item.
I follow the old CC rule where the mods cannot be greater than the rating of the armor combined. So they can get that Fire Retardant 6 mod put on their Chameleon suit but they only add 4 more points of mods. Until Arsenal says otherwise I think that is a very good rule cause then you don't have a gutter rat trying to explain why he has a very, very, very custom-made highly illegal military grade chameleon suit.
I like Fortune's idea to roll for the base armor, then for the mods to determine if you can even get them. I think it limits the aforementioned uber-Chameleon.
BTW the Chameleon Suit is 1/3rd the cheese of a Ruthenium Polmer set of Form-Fitting Body Armor Full Suit with 12 camera feeds. That gave it a +12 visibility modifier, which made it more than invisibility or blind fire.
I like Fortune's idea to roll for the base armor, then for the mods to determine if you can even get them. I think it limits the aforementioned uber-Chameleon.
BTW the Chameleon Suit is 1/3rd the cheese of a Ruthenium Polmer set of Form-Fitting Body Armor Full Suit with 12 camera feeds. That gave it a +12 visibility modifier, which made it more than invisibility or blind fire.
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) |
| ...it's going to get lost/leftbehind/destroyed in a few sessions anyway unless they never use it... |
If you have sort of armor destruction in your game the cost is certainly going to outweigt the rare benefits of all those mods.
The modifications that add to the Availability of an item have very explicit "+" signs. Adding the Availability ratings of other modifications to the Availability of the armor is a house rule, pure and simple.
Personally, if I were to implement a house rule, I would be like Whiskeymac and use the one from Cannon Companion (no mod rating can exceed the highest of ballistic or impact ratings of the armor, and combined mods cannot exceed the sum of ballistic and impact ratings). This would cut down on people getting everything at rating: 6, but would still allow things that would make sense, such as a chameleon suit with thermal dampening: 6.
But I don't really have a problem with characters pimping out their armor. The Availability rules keep characters from starting out with things like missiles, cannons, heavy armor, and a few pieces of 'ware. But they are still NOT mere street punks by any means - they can start out with Ares Alphas, monofilament whips, sniping rifles, machine guns with gyro-mount harnesses, and lots of other stuff. This isn't D&D! They're not first level! They may not be the best of the best yet, but they are pros who do dangerous work for a living.
Personally, if I were to implement a house rule, I would be like Whiskeymac and use the one from Cannon Companion (no mod rating can exceed the highest of ballistic or impact ratings of the armor, and combined mods cannot exceed the sum of ballistic and impact ratings). This would cut down on people getting everything at rating: 6, but would still allow things that would make sense, such as a chameleon suit with thermal dampening: 6.
But I don't really have a problem with characters pimping out their armor. The Availability rules keep characters from starting out with things like missiles, cannons, heavy armor, and a few pieces of 'ware. But they are still NOT mere street punks by any means - they can start out with Ares Alphas, monofilament whips, sniping rifles, machine guns with gyro-mount harnesses, and lots of other stuff. This isn't D&D! They're not first level! They may not be the best of the best yet, but they are pros who do dangerous work for a living.
Exactly!
50 bp in gear is 250,000 nuyen. That's a *lot* of cash outlay possible. To say that you can spend 160k on synaptic boosters 2, but can't buy tricked out armor isn't particularly logical to me.
If gear didn't have a max spending cap, I'd be more inclined to reduce what can be bought. But you hit that 50 cap pretty quick on some characters, ime.
50 bp in gear is 250,000 nuyen. That's a *lot* of cash outlay possible. To say that you can spend 160k on synaptic boosters 2, but can't buy tricked out armor isn't particularly logical to me.
If gear didn't have a max spending cap, I'd be more inclined to reduce what can be bought. But you hit that 50 cap pretty quick on some characters, ime.
I don't really have a problem with a character getting all of those mods put on his armor at creation. Armor is one of those things that I think of as being disposable, after all.
Hopefully, Arsenal will have some more information on things like armor mods, including, possibly, some sort of upper limit.
Hopefully, Arsenal will have some more information on things like armor mods, including, possibly, some sort of upper limit.
| QUOTE (WhiskeyMac) |
| I follow the old CC rule where the mods cannot be greater than the rating of the armor combined. So they can get that Fire Retardant 6 mod put on their Chameleon suit but they only add 4 more points of mods. Until Arsenal says otherwise I think that is a very good rule cause then you don't have a gutter rat trying to explain why he has a very, very, very custom-made highly illegal military grade chameleon suit. |
I like this. Thanks for the idea!
Don't see why those GM's were giving you hassle over this. With that armour you would be harder to spot, electrocute, be torched and any troll trying to bearhug you would not be happy. Of course that armor wouldn't stop a full auto spray and wouldn't do jack against an angry security mage, or his pet spirit. I'd actually smile if a player showed me an interest in stealth. Every game I have ever run I have gotten atleast 2-4 run and gun characters. I can can count on one hand how many stealth concious runners I have seen. Generally more stealth = less blood.
| QUOTE (Konsaki) |
| Ok, all you GMs out there, I have a question for all you guys. Do you allow your players to buy Chameleon suits [6/4] (Availability 10R)with all the armor mods on it for CharGen? Out of the last 6 character sheets that have been passed by me, 4 of them have had at least 3 of the following: ... |
That's kinda funny!
| QUOTE |
| So back to my question: Would you allow a player to buy a chameleon suit, with all the mods, at CharGen? |
I think your ruling is perfectly fine. Thinking about it, the AV of armor mods really should work like vision/hearing mods for glasses/earbuds and so on.
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
So, would you allow an Armor Jacket with the same Modifications? |
nope!
I don't have any problems with anyone having suped up armor. Several of the back stories in my group are ex-military, who had the armor due to "surplus" when they were discharged. Another has a military quartermaster as a contact.
Most save the thermal damping armor for the runs themselves, not everyday wear. This is because it makes security types, and cops, take a good hard look at you, well, those that have access to thermal vision or cameras that do.
Most save the thermal damping armor for the runs themselves, not everyday wear. This is because it makes security types, and cops, take a good hard look at you, well, those that have access to thermal vision or cameras that do.
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