GrinderTheTroll
Oct 13 2006, 06:03 PM
Let me preface my comments with the fact I know this is House Ruling and that it could all-for-not when actual rules materialize. With that in mind, it's a issue of great debate so I'm going to take a stab at what I think might work for Martial Arts (MA) in SR4.
It's a work in progrss so your ideas are welcome!!
Thanks,
~GTT
I think using a system similar to Magic/Resonace would work good for SR4 MA. You would pay toward advancing in "Rank" and that Rank would help power-up "Techniques/Talents" that you choose during each Rank progression. Nothing new there aside from naming.
Version #1
[ Spoiler ]
Version #1
- In order to gain Rank, you must have Unarmed Combat with some MA specialization. So "Unarmed 3 (Martial Arts)" for example. There is no need to define what style that's more astetic.
- Each Rank would cost 10+(new Rank) in Karma. Your new Rank cannot exceed you Base Unarmed Skill. Once Base Skill = 6, 2 more Ranks (Rank 8 = max) become available.
- Upon gaining a new Rank, you choose one Talents/Techniques to personalize your MA (style).
Here's my working list of Talents/Techniques:
Basic Talents/Techniques:
-- Improved Dodge (requirements: none) - Add up to your Rank in Dice to Melee Dodge Tests
-- Improved Block (requirments: none) - Add up to your Rank in Dice to Melee Block Tests.
-- Improved Parry (requirments: none) - Add up to your Rank in Dice to Melee Parry Tests.
-- Improved Subdual (requirments: none) - Add up to your Rank in Dice to Subdual Tests or an equal negative amount to an Opponent.
-- Preasure Points (requirements: none) - Subract up to your Rank in Dice from Opponents Impact Armor Rating. Has no effect on Hardened Armor.
-- Mass Attack (requirments: none) - Negates up to Rank in dice penalty for "Opponents in Melee".
Advanced Talents/Techniques:
-- (Style) Master (requirements: Base Skill 5) - Add up to your Rank in Dice to your Dice Pool for all Melee Attack Tests.
-- Nimble (requirements: Improved Dodge) - Net Hits from Melee Dodge Test may be be used again during that Combat Phase. Additional dice used in this manner cannot exceed Rank.
-- Counterstrike (requirements: Improved Block) - Net hits from Melee Block Test are used to make a return Melee Attack (Skill+Hits) during the same Combat Phase.
-- Lure (requirements: Improved Parry) - Net hits from Melee Parry Test may be used to augment your next Melee attack on the same opponent Parried.
-- Critical Strike (requirements: Preasure Points) - If Preasure Points reduces armor to zero, "underflow" values are added to the Melee Attack. Example: 2/2 Armor againts a Rank 4 with Preasure Points/Critcal Strike would "underflow" the armor by 2. (AV2 - 4 = -2) These 2 dice can be added to the subsequent Melee Attack.
Grandmaster:
-- (Style) Grandmaster (requirments: (Style) Master, Rank 8) -- Once per Combat Turn, the Grandmaster can add their Rank in additional dice to any *one* Melee Test.
Version #2
[ Spoiler ]
Version #2
- In order to gain (Style) Rank, you must have Unarmed Combat with the Martial Arts Specialization: For example, Unarmed 3 (Martial Arts).
- Each new (Style) Rank costs 10+new (Style) Rank in Karma to the specific (Style). Each (Style) tracks its own Rank and karma costs. Use the highest (Style) Rank to determine Talent/Technique bonuses.
- Talents/Techniques can be purchased individually for 15 Karma each (see individual requirements for restrictions).
- New (Style) Rank cannot exceed you Base Unarmed Skill. Once your Base Skill = 6, 2 more Ranks (Rank 8 = max) become available. These last 2 Ranks are not limited to Base Skill.
- Upon gaining a new (Style) Rank, choose one Talents/Techniques to personalize your (Style).
Here's my working list of Talents/Techniques:
Basic Talents/Techniques:
-- Improved Dodge (requirements: Base Skill 3) - Add up to your Rank in Dice to Melee Dodge Tests
-- Improved Block (requirments: Base Skill 3) - Add up to your Rank in Dice to Melee Block Tests.
-- Improved Parry (requirments: Base Skill 3) - Add up to your Rank in Dice to Melee Parry Tests.
-- Improved Takedown/Subdual (requirments: Base Skill 3) - Add up to your Rank in Dice to Subdual Tests or an equal negative amount to an Opponent.
-- Preasure Points (requirements: Base Skill 3) - Subract up to your Rank in Dice from Opponents Impact Armor Rating. Has no effect on Hardened Armor.
-- Mass Attack (requirments: Base Skill 3) - Negates up to 1/2 Rank (round-down, min 1) in dice penalty for "Opponents in Melee".
Advanced Talents/Techniques:
-- (Style) Master (requirements: Base Skill 5) - Add up to your Rank in Dice to your Dice Pool for Unarmed Melee Attack Tests.
-- (Style) Weaponmaster (requirements: Base Skill 5) - Add up to your Rank in Dice to your Dice Pool for Melee Weapon Attack Tests.
-- Evasion (requirements: Improved Dodge) - Net Hits from Melee Dodge Test (up to Rank) may be be used again during that Combat Phase.
-- Counterstrike (requirements: Improved Block) - Net from Melee Block Test (up to Rank) may be used to make a return Melee Attack (Skill+Hits) during the same Combat Phase.
-- Lure (requirements: Improved Parry) - Net hits from Melee Parry Test (up to Rank) may be added to your next Melee attack on the same opponent Parried.
-- Immobilize (requirements: Improved Takedown/Subdual) - Net hits from Subdual Test (up to Rank) may be added to your Opposed Test made for any escape attempt.
-- Critical Strike (requirements: Preasure Points) - If Preasure Points reduces armor to zero, "underflow" values are added to the Melee Attack. Example: 2/2 Armor againts a Rank 4 with Preasure Points/Critcal Strike would "underflow" the armor by 2. (AV2 - 4 = -2) These 2 dice can be added to the subsequent Melee Attack.
-- Cutting the Circle (requirements: Mass Attack) - Add up to 1/2 Rank (round-down, min 1) in dice penalty for "Friends in Melee".
Grandmaster:
-- (Style) Grandmaster (requirments: (Style) Master, (Style) Weaponmaster, Rank 8) -- Once per Combat Turn, the Grandmaster may add 1/2 Rank (4 dice max) to any *one* Melee Test. Both learning Rank 8 and (Style) Grandmaster require intense instruction from another (Style) Grandmaster.
Lagomorph
Oct 13 2006, 06:15 PM
Are those bonus dice or dice that augment the skill, and thus limited to the augmented skill cap?
GrinderTheTroll
Oct 13 2006, 06:28 PM
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) |
| Are those bonus dice or dice that augment the skill, and thus limited to the augmented skill cap? |
Bonus dice. So a typical test might be: (Skill+Attribute)+Rank
Lagomorph
Oct 13 2006, 06:31 PM
I'd say it's crazy and over powered, but, for the cost in karma, it's really not. I'd hate to see a grandmaster adept, though...
Fortune
Oct 13 2006, 06:40 PM
I think it will make for some very quick melee combat.
lorechaser
Oct 13 2006, 06:43 PM
But will it be any more quick than the combat against the ranged street sam at that level?
A grandmaster has spent at least 100 karma, from my reading.
A street sam spending 100 karma is rolling 20 or so dice on a long narrow burst twice a pass, probably with a DV of about 9, -2 AP.
Lagomorph
Oct 13 2006, 06:45 PM
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| a long narrow burst twice a pass |
Can't you only do 1 long and 1 short in an IP? I thought Long bursts fell into FA which was a complex action?
lorechaser
Oct 13 2006, 07:11 PM
Good point.
So a long narrow and a short narrow.
GrinderTheTroll
Oct 13 2006, 07:21 PM
| QUOTE (Lagomorph) |
| I'd say it's crazy and over powered, but, for the cost in karma, it's really not. I'd hate to see a grandmaster adept, though... |
I had similar thoughts too, but spending that much you should be better than someone who's spent less Karma or invested only in Unarmed.
I do like the idea of a Grandmaster and with my current requirments and with the nasitest scenario would have *a lot* of dice:
Unarmed (Martial Arts, Rank 8) 6, Agility 6(9) = 15
(Wu Shu) Master = +8 dice
(Wu Shu) Grandmaster = +8 (once)
Preasure Points/Critical Strike (vs. no armor) = +8
Parry/Lure (max 8-hits)
...would provide 15+8+8+8 = 39 dice! (or 24 extra dice for ~120 Kama)
I am considering maybe Rank/2 so the max bonus would be +4 dice, so:
Unarmed (Martial Arts, Rank 8) 6, Agility 6(9) = 15
(Wu Shu) Master = +4 dice
(Wu Shu) Grandmaster = +4 (once)
Preasure Points/Critical Strike (vs. no armor) = +4
Parry/Lure (max 4-hits)
...would provide 15+4+4+4 = 27 dice! (or 12 extra dice for ~120 karma)
| QUOTE |
| I think it will make for some very quick melee combat. |
Yes. Those who have studied long enough realize that long MA fights are movie myth or just folks sparring. ;)
Fortune
Oct 13 2006, 07:26 PM
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) |
| Yes. Those who have studied long enough realize that long MA fights are movie myth or just folks sparring. |
I understand that, but some elements of cinematic action can be desirable at times, from both a GM's and Players' point of view. If everything was strictly based on realism, not too many people would be wandering around the next day after taking a burst to the chest either.
kzt
Oct 13 2006, 07:27 PM
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) |
| QUOTE | | I think it will make for some very quick melee combat. |
Yes. Those who have studied long enough realize that long MA fights are movie myth or just folks sparring.  |
The "traditional fight" between martial arts masters has two guys circling for a long while, then one attacks and there is a winner within seconds.
GrinderTheTroll
Oct 13 2006, 07:34 PM
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Oct 13 2006, 02:21 PM) | | QUOTE | | I think it will make for some very quick melee combat. |
Yes. Those who have studied long enough realize that long MA fights are movie myth or just folks sparring. |
The "traditional fight" between martial arts masters has two guys circling for a long while, then one attacks and there is a winner within seconds.
|
Yup. So when it comes time to roll-the-dice, you get just that. Not like when you watch 2 untrained (or minimally so) fools swinging at each other for 5 minutes.
GrinderTheTroll
Oct 13 2006, 07:36 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Oct 14 2006, 05:21 AM) | | Yes. Those who have studied long enough realize that long MA fights are movie myth or just folks sparring. |
I understand that, but some elements of cinematic action can be desirable at times, from both a GM's and Players' point of view. If everything was strictly based on realism, not too many people would be wandering around the next day after taking a burst to the chest either.
|
Haha point taken.
Although I find it hard to not think realistically about MA after having studied for some time. Jumping though the air or running up walls is sure pretty and indeed cinematic, but I don't like it.
I simply wanted to present another vantage on this topic. Do with it what you will.
Fortune
Oct 13 2006, 07:39 PM
I'm not trying to piss on your topic ... honest.
Merely pointing out that sometimes some of the fun (and tension) in games can be had with longer battles than with quick, half-round knockouts.
MadDogMaddux
Oct 13 2006, 07:44 PM
Cool Concept.
I think I'd like to see maybe a few other things, like knockdown and grappling.
I'm not sure if I like or don't like the fact that all styles are treated basically the same. I guess it's left up to the GM/Player to determine WHAT those attacks look like in action.
GrinderTheTroll
Oct 13 2006, 09:11 PM
| QUOTE (MadDogMaddux) |
Cool Concept.
I think I'd like to see maybe a few other things, like knockdown and grappling.
I'm not sure if I like or don't like the fact that all styles are treated basically the same. I guess it's left up to the GM/Player to determine WHAT those attacks look like in action. |
Yeah it's really hard to be general and represent all available martial arts (whew) or get really specific for each one (whew x100).
I was thinking "Rank" could be one of the main factors for helping define more about the style as well as the (style) Master, (style) Grandmaster are generic for that reason as well (Wu Shu Master, Tae Kwon Do Master, Jujitsu Grandmaster, etc.)
For example, Animal based styles might call Rank 1 "Bear", Rank2 "Tiger", Rank 3 "Mongoose", etc. While others might just use "1st, 2nd, 3rd Degree Black Belt, etc". Same goes for the Talents/Techniques, you could call them whatever you want to best fit your style, or even add your own.
As for grappling/takedowns, that's part of what "Subdual" Talent/Technique is but I haven't worked much on that as I should.
I tried to fit the general concepts of what's usually taught in MA into Talents/Techniques and then apply how those might relate to the rules.
GrinderTheTroll
Oct 13 2006, 09:14 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I'm not trying to piss on your topic ... honest. |
Lies!!
I just wanted a thread to present my idea.
| QUOTE |
| Merely pointing out that sometimes some of the fun (and tension) in games can be had with longer battles than with quick, half-round knockouts. |
It's one of the things my group thinks lacks aobut SR4. Melee combat (Astral and Matrix too) take an awful long time. Taken in perspective since we played lots of SR3 whre counterattacks made melee quicker and tempered with the fact all of us have studied MA for a long time we have a sence of how things can go.
Glyph
Oct 14 2006, 04:21 AM
The biggest hurdle for me, realism-wise, is that most martial artists, even masters, are very careful about dealing with anyone who has a weapon, even just a knife. With these rules, a martial arts master could laugh at a troll with a polearm, or an elven speed sam with a monowhip. It's overpowered, because unarmed combat logically should be underpowered compared to using a weapon. With this system, there is no longer any logical reason for a player to pick a melee weapon skill, at least not if they are serious about melee combat.
GrinderTheTroll
Oct 14 2006, 05:22 AM
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| The biggest hurdle for me, realism-wise, is that most martial artists, even masters, are very careful about dealing with anyone who has a weapon, even just a knife. With these rules, a martial arts master could laugh at a troll with a polearm, or an elven speed sam with a monowhip. It's overpowered, because unarmed combat logically should be underpowered compared to using a weapon. With this system, there is no longer any logical reason for a player to pick a melee weapon skill, at least not if they are serious about melee combat. |
Well its a work in progress so thanks for your constructive criticism.
I'd be happy to hear about any positive ideas you have to help adjust what I've presented.
Glyph
Oct 14 2006, 06:03 AM
Constructive criticism-wise, I would say, first, that your notion to make the bonus rank/2 instead of rank is a good one - it seems a bit off-kilter to have someone getting 8 bonus dice, when an adept (who is supposed to be superhuman) can only get up to 3 bonus dice.
The melee weapon problem could probably be fixed easily enough by letting players get ranks in weapon styles, as well as martial arts styles. You wouldn't even need to make many changes, and there are certainly weapon-using martial arts out there now.
Personally, I like that you aren't trying to differentiate between styles that much. I think that in a timeline where UFC and mixed martial arts have been around for awhile, most PCs will use a mix of styles. Even if they study a more traditional style, they can individualize it by choosing which talents to pick first.
**EDIT**
To be clear, when I say allow them to get weapon styles, I mean let them have the option of getting ranks for a weapon skill, possibly with a martial arts specialization rather than a specific weapon specialization, NOT allow them to use the same ranks for martial arts and melee weapons.
Garrowolf
Oct 14 2006, 08:35 AM
Can I make a suggestion?
One of the things that I did that improved Martial Arts for me in my games was the addition of a Bashing Track. It covered blunt force trauma from clubs, fists, etc. It goes between the stun and the physical track (which is now called Lethal Track). The Lethal track covers piercing damage from blades, knives, and arrows as well as the overflow from bashing.
Stun overflows to bashing. You take stun damage from stun weapons and sleep spells and such. You take bashing damage and stun damage from having armor that resists the lethal effects. Once you cross into lethal damage, each time you take damage (don't fully resist it) you have to roll to resist stun equal to the attack.
Two fighters can beat the crap out of each other and slowly drop each other's bashing tracks. They can stagger around after they both beat each other into lethal damage, resisting going unconscious each hit that does damage. They stop the fight once the judges realize they are no longer in any condition to fight.
That same tough fighter later on gets shot once and dies.
Bashing Track = body/2 +10
knasser
Oct 14 2006, 01:30 PM
Likewise not trying to piss on your topic, so will make my point brief and leave it there to be discarded.
What you've basically done is removed the skill caps on a particular skill. Essentially, someone with a 6 in Unarmed Combat is no longer a master, they're someone who is very good but somehow has never learnt to develop certain basic techniques. I.e. to get an "improved block" you have to use this separate ranking system.
Personally, I'm happy with just allowing adepts to use their Improved Ability power to represent the super-masters and leave it abstract. I realise that is counter to the whole intent of your proposals, so I'll shut up again now. I just think that you're going to end up with players saying: "I've just put an elbow lock on him from behind. He's no longer able to use a punch on me," etc. Too much detail in a system that can't handle it.
lorechaser
Oct 14 2006, 02:30 PM
But that's just the point. I'm playing a troll melee adept. In a single session, I've grown bored with my combat. The only thing I really choose is whether to activate Elemental Strike. So I'm already going to start hassling my gm about things like grabbing someone's arms to prevent them from shooting.
Were there more rules, I'd be more inclined to pursue that.
Fortune
Oct 14 2006, 03:24 PM
My players describe their melees like that all the time. I just don't think there's a need for rules to reflect this type of thing. You obviously have enough imagination that you and the GM could easily roleplay (or describe) these types of combats without a major rules bloat.
knasser
Oct 14 2006, 04:26 PM
I can see this thread rapidly derailing into a debate on whether or not people should need these rules instead of the poster's reasonable request for comments on how to make them work, and I don't want to be responsible for that. So I'll just say that I see Lorechaser's point. For someone who is now getting bored with melee combat in Shadowrun, something like this might help. That wouldn't have seemed significant to me because my games are very layered and aware of the environment so every combat is different, very much including ranged combat. That sounds like a critique of Lorechaser, but it isn't. Just a reflection that I hadn't really appreciated
wanting to make melee more complicated.
In the spirit of contributing something useful, my honest critique of the rules would simply be that the way you have them, they stack with the normal 1-6 Unarmed Combat skill. That throws the power scale off a bit, I think. I'd instead make these maneuvers available at different stages of the normal skill progression. Heck, you could assign them "power points" in the same way as Phys. Adept powers, with your Unarmed Combat skill being the equivalent to magic rating.
I think this is a better solution to the power creep than the high karma costs in the original idea, because they're very high and I don't think you get enough for them. If the game was
very focused on close combat, then these maneuvres might be worth it, but in a world where you have to be paying attention to so many other things (particularly if you're playing a Phys. Adept which seems likely for "Martial Arts" based characters), then it's a poor use of karma. Essentially, the high karma costs mean that these rules are for the GM's favourite NPCs more than players. I don't think it would be unbalancing to just some them free as you gain in Unarmed Combat skill.
The other issue, Glyph has raised very well, which is that there is going to have to be a corresponding increase in melee weapon power. It probably wouldn't be a problem in my game where those who live by the sword get shot by those that don't. But it would definitely be something to watch out for in other play styles.
As said, this sort of system isn't for me and my game. But I hope this feedback is useful. It looks like the seeds of a workable system.
Fortune
Oct 14 2006, 04:39 PM
Technically, there's no reason why the thread can't handle
both topics, being as they are closely related, but I'll concede the point regardless, as I don't want to be the only dick arguing.
knasser
Oct 14 2006, 05:54 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Technically, there's no reason why the thread can't handle both topics, being as they are closely related, but I'll concede the point regardless, as I don't want to be the only dick arguing. |
*knasser ponders if by implication he's technically being called a dick. Concludes he probably is and wonders if Fortune has therefore met him at some point. 
*
GrinderTheTroll
Oct 14 2006, 11:29 PM
Thanks all for your comments and efforts to keep this thread on topic!
Rather than quote to death what's been posted I'll respond in a more general statement.
These rules are not intended to replace Adepts. Adepts use magic to enhance their skills and abilities instead of just training. As such, a well trained person (lots of karma from my initial offering) will make a regular-Joe as good if not better than an out-of-box adept. If you followed these rules with an Adept you have an unstoppable Martial Artist.
Given the mechanics of SR4, you basically add or remove dice. It's hard to not directly modify the skill cap, but Skill 6 doesn't offer much in the way of "Best-of-the-best", IMO.
Aside from creating a list of melee things that don't exist, or a stretch into the cinematic or items that are already covered with gymnastics, I thought using a fixed list of "generic" talents that modified existing rules would be an interesting on an existing and understood mechanic.
Now another permuation of some of my ground work would be to keep the Rank concept but allow the MA to "buy" Talents/Techniques similar to how Adepts do, from a "MA Talents/Technique" list. They'd spend their "Rank Points" (1 point per Rank) to gain bonuses to things like Sudual, Melee Combat, Melee Weapons, Blocking, Parrying, etc.
Thanks again for keeping things civil.
Kyoto Kid
Oct 16 2006, 02:21 AM
...Looks great
[ Spoiler ]
I printed out your system and am looking to test it the next time I run. I'm always for giving mundanes a better edge and am still a big fan of allowing a character to be literally The Best of the Best not only as best as "So & So" over there.
GrinderTheTroll
Oct 17 2006, 05:34 AM
I've added a "Version 2" to my original post and tried to address some of the issues pointed out.
Version 2 changes:
- Cleaned up language/terms used.
- Purchase of Talents/Techniques outside of Rank
- Allow multiple (Style) Ranks
- Added (Style) Weaponmaster
- Added Improved Subdual/Takedown
- Added Immobilize
- Updated (Style) Grandmaster
Triggerz
Oct 22 2006, 12:35 PM
Long time no see...
My main character is a combat-oriented adept - more focused on melee lately, although he started as more of a gun-bunny -, so I'm obviously biased here.
I do not mind going around the hard cap limit of the SR4 skill system as I think it will keep melee-oriented characters more vigilant (and humble), knowing that there might well be people out there who can kick their ass real good. Melee masters with anime-style levels of power can still be shot in the head cyberpunk-style when the sammies get bored (and no one is forced to use the rules if they don't like them, obviously), so I welcome the options. I think your "Version 2" is pretty reasonable.
NOTE: Below is a long rambling on gaming styles and preferences in the choice between "softer" and "harder" game mechanics. If this does not interest you, just skip the rest of my post. I wanted to use a "spoiler" tag to hide it, but I couldn't figure out how to add one. 
Some GMs and players enjoy "softer" mechanics where stats do not matter much. Personally, I enjoy "hard" mechanics insofar as they provide players and GMs with more concrete ways of determining whether or not PCs and NPCs achieve their desired goals. As a GM, I do not want to burden the choice of killing or saving a PC. With hard mechanics, I design a challenge, they design a strategy, and then either do or die. As such, when the PCs do succeed and survive a great threat, the players have something to be proud of as they didn't survive merely because the GM was scared of roughing them up.
To take an example from SR3, if my adept is facing a serious melee threat, he has to choose his maneuvers carefully or else he'll end up dead. As a player, I have to calculate the odds of success for each option and choose the one I think is best. It's not just about rolling dice and being nice to the GM so he doesn't kill my character. Personally, I consider this kind of strategic pondering a very important part of the roleplaying of my character. Yes, my character has a fully-fleshed background and, no, it is not a min-maxed one-trick pony. But he is a martial artist who values good strategy more highly than brute force, and if the game mechanics did not provide me with a decent range of options in melee combat, I'd be really disappointed, which is why I really enjoyed the SR3 MA system. This type of options gives me a bigger responsibility in doing or dying. Sure, luck plays a role, but Lady Luck should favour the prepared and the wise. And with a decent MA system, it does.
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