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OneTrikPony
Is there any recent cannon material on the border security setup between the SSC and surrounding nations--including the Seattle border-- I have sprawlsg and i can't find it in there.


my specific questions revolve around the comlink and ratings of ID verifiers but i'd also like to know what kind of scanners particular borders have at particular ratings.


Case in point:
I have one character concept, a paranormal bounty hunter, kind of like the guy in "Striper Assasin" who often travels between Seattle and SSC to go hunting. Say he wants to hop the border to bag an Elk for a special menu item at the Big Rhino resteraunt.
He's sinless,
he has a couple of cyberlimbs with ability mods up to the max for CarGen,
he's driving a Gaz-Willis Nomad*,
He'll carry a smartlinked pistol, a hunting rifle, regular ammo both ways and he's got to sneak a significant portion of an elk carcass back.

Con and negotiate are probably plan B. His Charisma is 2 with social group 1.

At this point he's not looking to get into the Tir' but eventually...


If there's no cannon material with #'s what do you think border security looks like in 2070?

Thanx

*for SR4 purposes i'm extrapolating the Nomad from Rigger3.
OneTrikPony
No takers?

Ok let me ask; given that scanners and verifyers are realativly cheep and 6 seems to be the max rating for electronic devices why would any legal border crossing have less than rtg 6 verifyers and scanners. Also, wouldn't that make all borders as electronicly secure as the Tir border?
Mistwalker
Unless the border is outlined with a wall, it is hard to completely secure. Even with high tech and magic.

As for ratings, I would probably have rating 6 at the border crossing, but something like rating 3-4 in vehicles.
OneTrikPony
That's a good point. In a station high rating equipment is cheep cuz it doesn't have to be replaced all the time, in a vehickle it turns over every couple years so they don't spend the nuyen on it.

doesn't the vehicle just radio back to the station though? Essentialy if your busted by border cops and your fake ID is checked don't they just slot it into the reader then uplink to the station for verification?

Of course if my character is stoped by border cops he's allready screwed because he's a poacher.

What does the Salish border look like in 2070, are all vehicles stoped? Are all vehicles searched. If Seattle is a major port then there has to be alot of truck trafic at the borders. Like on the I-5 up to Vancouver, and the 405 East to Billings(?).

What are RL borders like in North America, I've never been to Mexico or Canada but my perception is that you can drive or walk back and forthe between Canada and the States without even being stoped, but they stop you and check your pasport at the Mexican border.

Can some one who has done this tell me what it's like?

Also, I've allways thought that there is a wall/fence between Seattle and SSC, is this true? What is physical security like at the Tir and Souix borders?
Mistwalker
Borders have check points at the legal border crossings. They try to surveil the rest of the border, but cannot guarrantee that no one will get thru illicitly.

You need ID to cross a border, and they can deny you access if you do meet their standards. Of course, they have no choice but to re-admit citizens, but may arrest them, depending on the circumstances.

To surround Seattle with a solid wall, would take hundreds of kilometers of wall. A wee bit expensive.

There are always tunnels that can be dug under the border. There was one recently found between the US and Canada, near Vancouver. Going from a farm building and a warehouse, IIRC.
Fortune
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Oct 17 2006, 09:23 AM)
What are RL borders like in North America, I've never been to Mexico or Canada but my perception is that you can drive or walk back and forthe between Canada and the States without even being stoped, but they stop you and check your pasport at the Mexican border.

No passport is (normally) required for residents of Canada or the States in order to visit the other country, but there is definitely a border stop and ID check.
OneTrikPony
Ok, learn something every day. no passport but there is a check point. Meaning you can't just drive strait through.

Im guessing that there are no cannon stats on border security checks.

Any opinions on what I would need to get my guy past a leagal SSC checkpoint?
Mistwalker
Find a trail that doesn't use the normal road
grin
talk to a smuggler.

Either that, or get a fake SIN, or find out which guard is can be bribed and go across when he is on duty.
fool
parts of the orc underground leave seatttle into the ssc (according to RH)
you can also find ratings of border security in SONA iirc.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (fool)
parts of the orc underground leave seatttle into the ssc (according to RH)
you can also find ratings of border security in SONA iirc.

...as well as in SoE if that is where the campaign is based.
OneTrikPony
SONA! Shadows of North America, I was looking all over in Target UCAS.
OneTrikPony
ARRRRGH!

I just paid 23$ for that damned book and it has border verification ratings for every North American nation...except the SSC.

Im sure it's just an ommision in the table but I can't find any fking errata for SONA. I'm going to assume that the rating is the same as for most countries; 3


blakkie
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 16 2006, 05:52 PM)
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Oct 17 2006, 09:23 AM)
What are RL borders like in North America, I've never been to Mexico or Canada but my perception is that you can drive or walk back and forthe between Canada and the States without even being stoped, but they stop you and check your pasport at the Mexican border.

No passport is (normally) required for residents of Canada or the States in order to visit the other country, but there is definitely a border stop and ID check.

Once upon a time not that long ago you could get away with just a driver's license (with no picture!) to fly across. Although occationally you'd get hassled for not having your birth certificate along with it. Right now I wouldn't consider trying to fly across without a passport and within an year and a bit you'll likely not be able to drive across without a passport. Or possibly some new form of [cheaper] ID that the Canadian government is trying to negotiate for.
Fortune
QUOTE (blakkie @ Oct 17 2006, 02:10 PM)
Once upon a time not that long ago you could get away with just a driver's license (with no picture!) to fly across.

Hell, I used to cross back and forth all the time (at the proper border crossings) with no ID whatsoever ... and I wasn't even a citizen of either country (they only required me to be listed in the phone book). At one point is was listed as the world's longest undefended border, but I have a feeling that time has passed.
OneTrikPony
It had always been my impression that the canadian border was completely open. Doesn't Niagra stradel the border?

Anyhow, the book says;

The SSC does not require visas for access,

The Seattle, Tir and Tsimshian borders are far more
restrictive. Outgoing traffic will only get a cursory visual scan
and license check. Incoming traffic from the Tir and Seattle is
always inspected, and one out of four vehicles can expect to
be pulled over for a comprehensive examination by chem
sniffers and on-duty shamans.

The Seattle border is more closely monitored, with all travelers
getting a thorough check and search in order to discourage
smuggling and talislegging

looks like I'll have to set this character up to run the border in stead of crossing with forged papers.
Fortune
QUOTE (OneTrikPony)
It had always been my impression that the canadian border was completely open. Doesn't Niagra stradel the border?

Well, it is relatively open. There are many placs with no border posts in sight, and no Visa is required for Americans to visit, but there are still guards on both sides, and a fair number of vehicle spot checks and the like.

Niagara does straddle the border, as do 4 of the 5 Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence River. Part of the falls belongs to America, and the other part is Canadian.
kzt
QUOTE (Fortune)
Niagara does straddle the border, as do 4 of the 5 Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence River. Part of the falls belongs to America, and the other part is Canadian.

The part that will always be hard is the Akwesasne Mohawk reservation. It straddles the border, is heavily armed, pretty darn independent and internally it doesn't really care much the international border (and has a 1794 treaty that says they can ignore it).

It would have been fun if Quebec had declared independence, because the 24,000 Mohawk weren't going to stay part of an independent Quebec.
The Jopp
Illegal border crossing might be a little bit harder in 2070 but not that much. I would believe that the higher security borders like paranoid Tir would probably have done the following.

1.Seeded the border with Sensor tags and receivers along the borders and as soon as the appropriate sensor finds something it reports to a receiver.

2.The receiver then filters out certain patterns and sends it to a border station (with a bored technician and some Tir border guards.

3.They probably also have a few spirits and watchers but they would be rarer.

Solution, stealth and timing and Area jammers at a high rating should help a little, and planning.
Draconis
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Oct 17 2006, 06:49 AM)
Illegal border crossing might be a little bit harder in 2070 but not that much. I would believe that the higher security borders like paranoid Tir would probably have done the following.

1.Seeded the border with Sensor tags and receivers along the borders and as soon as the appropriate sensor finds something it reports to a receiver.

2.The receiver then filters out certain patterns and sends it to a border station (with a bored technician and some Tir border guards.

3.They probably also have a few spirits and watchers but they would be rarer.

Solution, stealth and timing and Area jammers at a high rating should help a little, and planning.

What about random 'copter border patrols? Yellowjackets sniffing for EM sigs or your area jammer that you're using trying to get past those hidden sensors.
I believe both the Tir and the Azzies use em.

Also satellites. You pay some dweeb to play zoom with the spy satellite (ala google earth but real time) staring at the border all day and report irregularities. Every country has got to have satellites by 2070 it's damn easy to boost them into orbit using spirits. Hell my team has an eye in the sky itself. True the AI running it is from a coffee maker and the casing is from a tweaked toaster oven.... wink.gif
The Jopp
QUOTE (Draconis)


Solution, stealth and timing and Area jammers at a high rating should help a little, and planning. [/QUOTE]
What about random 'copter border patrols? Yellowjackets sniffing for EM sigs or your area jammer that you're using trying to get past those hidden sensors.
I believe both the Tir and the Azzies use em.

Also satellites. You pay some dweeb to play zoom with the spy satellite (ala google earth but real time) staring at the border all day and report irregularities. Every country has got to have satellites by 2070 it's damn easy to boost them into orbit using spirits. Hell my team has an eye in the sky itself. True the AI running it is from a coffee maker and the casing is from a tweaked toaster oven.... wink.gif

Yea, I didnít mean to ignore them I just forgot them. One can hide from copter patrols but the biggest problem is most probably motion sensors tags linked to satellites.

This would mean that every moving creature that they pick up is highlighted on a grid or something and tagged and then a program filters out the non-metahuman ones (mostly). This is where invisibility comes in or Stealth Suits.

So, depending on ones game it is damn hard to go anywhere or with a bit of planning quite simple.
kzt
QUOTE (Draconis)

Also satellites. You pay some dweeb to play zoom with the spy satellite (ala google earth but real time) staring at the border all day and report irregularities. Every country has got to have satellites by 2070 it's damn easy to boost them into orbit using spirits. Hell my team has an eye in the sky itself. True the AI running it is from a coffee maker and the casing is from a tweaked toaster oven.... wink.gif

You just do it with computers, which is how video surveillance cameras work now. System detects a certain variation level of and flags it.
Draconis
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 17 2006, 07:29 AM)
QUOTE (Draconis @ Oct 17 2006, 02:13 AM)

Also satellites. You pay some dweeb to play zoom with the spy satellite (ala google earth but real time) staring at the border all day and report irregularities.  Every country has got to have satellites by 2070 it's damn easy to boost them into orbit using spirits.  Hell my team has an eye in the sky itself. True the AI running it is from a coffee maker and the casing is from a tweaked toaster oven....  wink.gif

You just do it with computers, which is how video surveillance cameras work now. System detects a certain variation level of and flags it.

Yes indeed good point, worked security while going to school. smile.gif
New systems even today are very slick I can only imagine what toys they'll have in 64 years.
Conskill
For crossing the border away from the major roadways and checkpoints, keep in mind there's angry paracritters, rugged terrain, and the occasional malevolent spirit out there to help national security.

In the nastiest parts of the planet, I imagine guard posts don't send out for patrols when they detect a tresspassers; they send out for popcorn.
kigmatzomat
I'll point out that the smuggling issue isn't a terribly important one for the region. The region generally has the same standards on good vs bad (i.e. drugs are bad, food is good). As long as there's no immediate threat, the border will be "pro-trade," meaning relaxed.

The crossings will probably be similar to today's crossing where you stop, let your Comm be queried & a facial recognition scan against your ID, declare you are not bringing any illegal contraband (specifying the illegal things that most people wouldn't think are illegal, like fresh fruit or produce) and be on your way.

Due to the need to keep a smooth traffic flow, they will only scan a small number of vehicles in detail, probably with a drive-through sensor. The vehicles will be "randomly" selected (meaning either when the guard is grabbing whatever's handy to meet quota or full of whatever racial/ethnic mix they personally dislike) possibly with a computer assist to ensure some true randomness.

Satellite sensors will be good but is it worth it? The cost of a geosyncronous satellite is pretty high and if you have sub-meter resolution you are talking about an absolutely huge data set requiring an extensive ground-based processing system.

I'd expect more of a drone network. A satellite will cost several hundred million at the very least. Get a mix of sensor laden crawler, flyspy, and blimp drones at about 5000Y each complete with enhancements and ClearSight autosofts that give them ~9 dice of perception. Add another 35,000Y for a portable drone "nest" (generators/fuel supply, long-range radio uplink, hardened Comm with a rigger Agent and a security Agent) with one interdict drone (probably an armed Dalmation).

You can move the "nests" around as needed to keep the smugglers on guard and they work as well for military perimeter control.
imperialus
QUOTE (Fortune)
Well, it is relatively open. There are many placs with no border posts in sight, and no Visa is required for Americans to visit, but there are still guards on both sides, and a fair number of vehicle spot checks and the like.

Niagara does straddle the border, as do 4 of the 5 Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence River. Part of the falls belongs to America, and the other part is Canadian.

Heck there are a few roads where there is nothing but a shack where you use the honor system to call in your arrival via videophone. Further away from the roads along the prarie border there isn't even that. There are big concrete pilon type things every once and a while to let you know where the border is but that's it. Like Blakkie said though I wouldn't want to go to the States now without a passport but it used to be IF they even bothered to check your car, it was for fruits and vegtables.
Fortune
I remember a time, before the advent of ATMs, when the border guards' main concern was whether you had enough money for the amount of time you intended to stay in the States. biggrin.gif
fool
and (if going into canada) they didn't even make you pull it out to prove that you actually had that much. (happened to me when I was going hitch hiking across canada for a month)
eidolon
We must have driven through some bigger checkpoints then this summer. We got the full on "is this your first trip, do you have more than 10k dollars to your name, who are you, why you going to Canada" etc. And on the way back (into MN), we had to open the trunk (spilling half of our tightly wedged camping gear), answer a bunch of questions, and then we could come back.

It was slightly amusing that they couldn't imagine that we could possibly want to come into Canada and just "drive around and see it". They kept asking us if we knew anyone, if we were going anywhere specific, if we had hotel reservations, etc.

You'd think that Canadians don't go on 30 day roadtrips with no jobs or something. biggrin.gif
Adam
That's a pretty normal procedure for crossing the border on land. They get extra nosy if you're not employed or self-employed, as they think you're more of a risk to illegally immigrate.

I once got told -- while flying into the USA on a connecting flight for a flight to Amsterdam -- that they suspected I was trying to illegally immigrate because I hadn't packed enough clothes for their liking.

I've had them ask how much money I had before, but they've never asked for any sort of proof.

Until earlier this year, customs officials at the USA border didn't even bother to stamp Canadian passports, but as of the last time I flew there it looks like they've started doing so again.
Fortune
QUOTE (eidolon)
We must have driven through some bigger checkpoints then this summer.

Things have tightened up over the last couple of years.
eidolon
QUOTE (Adam)
That's a pretty normal procedure for crossing the border on land. They get extra nosy if you're not employed or self-employed, as they think you're more of a risk to illegally immigrate.


I had the same thoughts, but what made it extra funny was I was showing them my (still active at the time) military ID, and they were acting like I was trying to move there in my 2 door Ford Focus. biggrin.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (eidolon)
I had the same thoughts, but what made it extra funny was I was showing them my (still active at the time) military ID, and they were acting like I was trying to move there in my 2 door Ford Focus.

Keep in mind Canada's history with Americans 'immigrating' to avoid service overseas. Showing them that ID might have been what made them check closer in the first place. wink.gif
WhiskeyMac
I visited Vancouver, BC this August and now you have to have a valid passport in order to cross the border. I got a lecture because that law passed while I was visiting Astoria, OR and Seattle and I don't have a passport yet. Seems that they think it's suspicious for 2 young adults to just want to visit Canada for a night and get some food. Crazy.
Fortune
I'm curious as to whether it now works the same going in the other direction. And if so, which country first implemented the new regulations.
eidolon
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 18 2006, 04:54 PM)
QUOTE (eidolon @ Oct 19 2006, 08:14 AM)
I had the same thoughts, but what made it extra funny was I was showing them my (still active at the time) military ID, and they were acting like I was trying to move there in my 2 door Ford Focus.

Keep in mind Canada's history with Americans 'immigrating' to avoid service overseas. Showing them that ID might have been what made them check closer in the first place. wink.gif

That was the second thought I had, right after I decided they thought I was trying to move to Canada in my 2 door Ford Focus (well, it's my wife's technically wink.gif).

Mistwalker
You don't need a passport to enter Canada if you are an American, and as of yet, you don't need a passport to enter the US if you are Canadian or American

Bush, and a whole whack of groups are trying to quash the need for passports to enter the US if your American or Canadian.

If your flying, it is recomended that you travel with a valid passport.
Mistwalker
QUOTE (eidolon)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 18 2006, 04:54 PM)
QUOTE (eidolon @ Oct 19 2006, 08:14 AM)
I had the same thoughts, but what made it extra funny was I was showing them my (still active at the time) military ID, and they were acting like I was trying to move there in my 2 door Ford Focus.

Keep in mind Canada's history with Americans 'immigrating' to avoid service overseas. Showing them that ID might have been what made them check closer in the first place. wink.gif

That was the second thought I had, right after I decided they thought I was trying to move to Canada in my 2 door Ford Focus (well, it's my wife's technically wink.gif).

There are a number of American military in Canada right now, trying for Refugee status, fleeing the "unjust" war in Iraq. Some arrived in their car, with very little effects.
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