Fringe cultures tend to embrace body modification to express a sort of conformist individuality and the fringe cultures represented in cyberpunk are no different. However, cyberpunk in general and Shadowrun in particular tends to shy away from those modifications that blur or destroy gender lines. With a few exceptions, only the most extreme of transhumanist fiction depicts cultures that choose to reject the standard gender duopoly of male and female.

However, with the surgical options available in Shadowrun and many other cyberpunk worlds the widely accepted two-sex/two-gender system need not exist. A genetic male should be able to carry a child to term and a genetic female should be able to impregnate man or woman with a working set of ovaries, given the right surgical additions. Keeping the hormone levels straight may require some custom bioware but there is no logical reason why one can't have fully functional artificial hermaphrodites. With the right options a bigender character may be able to change his/her external anatomical sex at will. Some may even choose to be neuter, removing all recognizable sexual characteristics.
People may even create new genders and new sexes by mixing and matching bioware in ways that mainstream medicine wouldn't even begin to consider.

It makes since that some gender outlaws would gravitate toward the fringe communities as is the case with modern gender outlaws gravitating toward goth and punk communities and toward hippie communities before that. They should be a noticeable part of the shadow world even if they are only a small fraction of it. Yet, they are rarely seen or heard.

It doesn't even have to be gender outlaws who take advantage of these developments. An otherwise normal heterosexual genetic and self-identified as male wageslave may go to the corporate fertility clinic to pick up some donor eggs and a bioware uterus because he wants children but doesn't want to bother having a relationship with a woman just as many women today use donor sperm because they want children without the hastle of having a relationship with a man. Likewise, the husband of a high-level female executive may choose to carry the child and breastfeed so that his wife won't have to take so much maternity leave.

I suppose the butch bisexual elf chick with a orange mohawk and the slightly effeminate goth dude are the closest one really comes to gender-bending in mainstream 80s culture so it really isn't that inappropriate that Shadowrun doesn't go much farther than this, but real 80s fringe culture took these things to far greater extremes and real future fringe cultures almost certainly would, as well. If the technology exists then someone somewhere will want to use it and if someone wants to use it then someone will find a way.

PS: Pregnant Arnold Schwarzenegger is both funnier and more believable than Pregnant Billy Crystal; everyone should watch Junior.

Don't forget, women will often visit their hardcore Shadowrunner Street Doc for sex changes, so that the gay guy in their Shadowrunning team will love them back.

That's from Sprawl Survival Guide, right? Or something even more insane?

Having watched 'Junior', man that was one funny movie... a bit cheesy, but the whole idea of the movie is the kicker: If a male taking female fertility hormones can bear a child, imagine what that would do for women who have trouble bearing children to term? Excellent!

I've toyed with the idea of hermaphrodites in the SR world... whether real or genetically altered. In fact - if done at a young enough age - a bio-engineered herm would probably be have both functional sexual organs... kind of a neat subject. I can see a corporate intrusion expert being gender neutral - that way they could pass off as any person of any gender with the right disguises/implants.
Just out of curiosity - with how surge characters are seen as freaks of nature, why would there be any large attraction to human engineered gender freaks? They'd probalby be tossed into the surge crowd. (which by definition in Year of the Commet, have their own clubs and cultural hotspots so they have someplace to blend in)

Seriously, there's a whole subchapter in SSG that is beyond the pale of anything that can be discussed on this forum - including people who get sex changes, go hermaphrodite, or worse, go neuter. People in 2063 are, obviously, fucking insane.

Nah. I wouldn't say they're any more insane than we are today. Just more capable, thanks to technological improvements, of acting on their zany fetishes.

Yes, I know it was The Burning Time. Criticizing Kenson's writing is why I haven't been on for the last two weeks.

*gasps*

Oh, shit. I hope Bull doesn't see that and ban me!

I see it as fairly well-known for there to be hermaphrodites and sex-changes in SR2070. They're mainly found in the sex-industry as joyboygirls. A lot of guys like the idea of a "chick with a dick" and in SR, that's easily obtainable.

I have a "non-" NPC that has no gender as such (no balls, no vagina, fingertip dick that can pee if any player dares to enquire further). Is a scientist that had himself rendered neuter to avoid distractions from his work. And I would imagine that even within corporate conformity land, there are a fair number that have chosen to either switch sex or have their sausage and eat it.

One cross-dresser that I knew, when asked why he didn't just have an operation replied that he could become a girl, but that he wouldn't look right, and there's no point in being an ugly girl. Now with 2070's tech, you can be any sort of girl you want! So I think there'd be quite a few Male to Female cross-border traffic.

With the exception of a few backwards communities and nations, I think by 2070, sexual attitudes will be much more flexible and tolerant.

This is an admin post: you are not owed nor guaranteed "free speech" on a privately owned message board. James has raised the issue of what he considers an unfair banning with me, I replied to him, and I discussed it with the person who banned him. It is not a matter of conversation for this thread.

These forums are traditionally pretty footloose and fancy free, and in some ways, that was a mistake/side effect of not having active moderators to help defuse situations. James -- and others, for sure -- often got more leeway than many people were comfortable with, and that had given Dumpshock a bad reputation among many people. New moderators and more even enforcement of the posting guidelines will attempt to rectify those problems.

Further discussion of forum-related issues should be in Bug Reports, Feature Requests, & Discussion About Dumpshock. Thanks.

I, personally, just don't see why it matters in most games. It's a curious aspect of society's changes since 2006 or whatever, but for the most part I don't see it coming up (or needing to come up) in games real often, like most aspects of sexuality. Toss it in as backstory if you need to, mention it's possible to do blah blah blah in some piece of fluff, but...shit...who cares? Am I gonna go get my male Shadowrunner pregnant for kicks, just because I can (how often do female Shadowrunners keep working when they're knocked up, and why would it impact a game any differently?)?

Oh, and as far as that adventure with the Japanese kid and his relationship with his flamer spirit (yes, really, it's a flamer spirit, heehee) -- that wasn't "San Francisco" of today. As the writers themselves point out so very very often, things change. It was San Francisco under the oppressive bootheel of Japanese corporations (maybe even under Saito, I don't recall exactly where in the timeline it fit in).

Don't think of it as just another gay guy in San Francisco, ho hum. Think of it as a gay kid the heart of ultra-conservative Japanese society, raised by straight-laced parents in a megacorporation where reputation/face is as important as work ability and that sort of thing -- and who was having a gay relationship with a spirit, not just another human being (much less a Japanese one). I can see meta-unfriendly corp types not looking too keenly on that sort of thing.

I think that this hits on another aspect of Shadowrun that has only recently begun getting attention. Non-combat oriented body mods, especially those that have a significant influence on the characters short-term identity. It should be trivial to put some rollers in place instead of cheek bones, and with a minor switch (not even DNI, necessarily), the cheeks change angles or shift a millimeter this way or that, radically changing the appearance of the user. Color changing irises, color changing hair, neither have been addressed significantly. From the day to day stuff, I imagine this is far more common than Shadowrun portrays. It'd be a punk's dream come true! And it does make up a major portion of Cyberpunk 2020. Gender changing or intentional gender ambiguation is simply the same cosmetic technology brought to its logical conclusion. Change the external at the whims of the internal.

Imagine the benefits your face would have if, over five minutes, could lose two inches, soften his cheek bones, grow pointy ears, green eyes, long, dark brown hair, soft voice, slender hips, perky breasts and even the smell of a woman, crossing instantly and, excepting clothes, seemlessly from an average looking or perhaps somewhat intimidating African American male to a gentle toned and alluring young elven female.

I suspect that when SR has touched on this issue in the past that they have left it somewhat open to interpretation and lacking in detail simply for the one reason: it is a subject that, to many, is uncomfortable at best and touchy at worst.

It's hard to put a subject like this in perspective as, either way, there is going to be some bias in one direction or the other in regards to peoples opinions on the subject. It's also one of those situations where you cannot look at one facet of the thing without looking at it in relation to the whole of the thing. Specifically you cannot look at the Transhumanist fringe group, as it were, without looking at the the society with which they relate too as well.

The first thing to think about is what makes a fringe group exactly that? Well, the simplist answer is a group of people that hold a belief and/or practice in regard that doesn't fit in or runs contrary to the societal norms. So, by definition these groups, at least the open ones, are in the minority. The actual beliefs of the group maybe carried by a much larger demographic than is actually represented by this fringe group, it is just that these people in particular are open and unashamed about their beliefs.

For instance, look at our own timeline, over the past few hundred years we have seen a fringe group move from the periphery of our social order to a more acceptable level within our society. They have, in fact, integrated so well these days that it is hard to believe that they were ever a fringe group in the first place. Granted, they still do have people that are not happy with their beliefs but we live as ever in an imperfect society. Who are these people? Homosexuals.

Look at how, to use a specific case, here in Britain, the homosexual has been persecuted and how they had fringe groups of such people back in the victorian period of Ms. Brittanias colourful history. In those days it was illegal for anyone to be a homosexual punishable by imprisonment. Of course their was relatively few Homosexuals in those days. Relatively few open ones at least, and it was quite often the people who's voices were first and loudest to condemn their fellow man or woman of homosexuality that shared the same urges of the very people they condemned.

However, Homosexuality proved that if you can live long enough in a system that is dead set against your survival it will eventually come to accept your existence and think of you less and less important as their interests move onto the next great witch hunt.

Look at shadowruns early history as the racial hatred moved away from the colour of the skin and moved on to metatype instead.

The reason that i can see that Transhumanism and body modification in the direction of hyzmarca's suggestions towards the end of his first post have not become so self evident in SR yet is that it simply has not been around long enough for the societal system to adapt to it yet. While many people in 2064 and beyond may indeed harbour these very ideas and desires to get such modifications what mostly stays there hand is how they will be perceived and reacted to by their piers. A male executive officer of a large corporation would probably not, however much he fancied the idea, have a synthetic womb installed so that he might bring a child to term himself in case that his piers and, heaven forbid, his higher ups believe his sudden decision to be a little racy.
Of course, a particularly daring Bioware corp may put a spin on this and use it in an advertising campaign for just such a synthetic organ gengineered towards the male of the species. However, that is outside of the topic at hand and subject to another discussion at another time.

For sake of term and to save my poor callused fingers from wearing out this keyboard any further i shall unsubtley lump anyone with these ideas under the term Transhuman. Of course, when you look at Transhumanists as a group you will realise that their is not one necessarily unifying belief amongst them except that body modification is somehow improving themselves. As with any fringe group, it is the least enlightened and ones with the poorest understanding of this belief that give the whole a bad name. As humans we are quicker to pick fault than to give praise, whether this is our nature or merely the way we have been forged throughout out existence within society is another matter of debate. However, think about Transhumanists. Picture yourself in the world of shadowrun and look around you. Considering how subtle and unobtrusive many implants are in the world of Shadowrun how would you know that the person over at the coffee vendour is a Transhumanist. He/she may certainly be, but look to that persons right, yes, look at the genderless looking person sporting the two obvious cyberarms and chromed cybereyes. Are they Transhumanist, or merely the victim of a horrible accident that has chosen to accessorise within a personal style of their own choosing regardless of the thoughts of many around them?

In shadowrun, it's hard to tell who may be a Transhumanist and that's what gives people the biggest fear. When it's a clear cut line (which it rarely is in the case of most fringe groups and beliefs) we are happier as it makes it easier to shun the people in question and/or stay out of their way. As part of modern culture and indeed the cultures of Shadowrun we are taught to fear the subversive and in essence that is what fringe groups are, subversive elements writhing through the guts of society.

In conclusion, and to cut a long story short as once again i have indulged my own penchant for waxing lyrical, the Transhumanist sub-culture has not come to such a level of exceptance yet that you will see grown men giving live child birth or similar in the mainstream society of Shadowrun. The society is still adapting to an ever changing world that has already given them cyber/bioware, magic, and metahumanity in a very short period of time and it will take a lot longer for the transhumanist movement to integrate itself into mainstream society. Or it may never, after all mainstream society is a human thing and aren't Transhumanist's trying to ascend that state?

The decision, as always is up to the players and GM as to how much and to what level they want these things to affect their game.

Hopefully that has given some people a little food for thought. Of course, this is my opinion on such matters based from observation of society at present. I'm willing to except that i may have talked with some inaccuracy about things. However, we are all imperfect beings and we make do with what we have.

...I enjoy beding a...Girl

[in chorus]

-KK
-Jill
-Dynamo Jo
-Lana Lane
-Leela
-Violet
-Desert
-Night Angel
-Gracie
-Katyana Markova
-Tomoe
-Hurricane Hannah
-Da Brat

...yeah, you know the tune...

I agree that this isn't really something for the rule books.

RPGs are still somewhat in that weirdo category. All we need is for someone to pick one up, randomly flip it open, and see "Penis: 50 Nuyen. Vagina: 100 Nuyen (25 Nuyen discount if both are installed)" and flip out.

That being said, there is going to be some *weird* *shit* out there in the Sixth World. Not as common as has been posited, maybe, but it'll be there. There are people right now that want multiple genders. If it becomes easier, it'll become an option.

I'd refer to Transmetropolitan for this.

One very interesting concept in Transmet is the people that have their sex drives removed, in order to be more logical, more efficient, etc.

I could very easily see some runners picking up something like that to become truly hardcore professionals. "Dude, Schisomax? He had his *libido* removed. He'll shoot the most gorgeous newsbabe you can find in the skull if someone pays him, not even blink."

Interesting topic...

I was reading DotSW last night and I remember Kestrel (Is Winterhawk's stuff still on the web?) talking about how a gorgeous man/woman doesn't really phase her anymore becuase Bodmods, hardcore cosmo sculpting, and magic makes it too easy for folks to change it up or fake it.

It's probably not the case in the Megacorp world but I doubt gender would matter as much to the folks on the street. Shoot its not like women are relegated to being "the weaker sex" anymore when she could be more cybered than you are. It'd like to think that the idea of relationships would have evolved past the gender focused slump.

Then again the madness of the 2011-2070 era could have forced people to be more conservative than they are now just to cope. And in someplaces it is far worse.

The Male/Female thing seems kind of outdated when folks can switch back at the drop of a hat. Hell somepeople are trying to become something more than man or woman, well they can try. I could get a streetdoc to replace my arm with a hydraulic dildo attachment.

I doubt I would care. You'd have to judge a person on what they were at the given time because the technology allows for mimicry of incredible accuracy. Would it even matter what you were born as anymore.

An interesting question, assuming changing gender were relatively trivial, which gender would we see the most of on the streets? I'd have to assume female. They're just friendlier on the eye, and what guy wouldn't want to get into some lesbian action if he were one of the lesbians? A close second would be androgynous for the reasons listed above.

I should add to Hyzmarca's point that the idea of "homosexuality" was introduced to Japan from Europe in the 1800s. Before that you didn't have homosexuals, you just had guys who had sex with other guys (and women who had sex with other women. It was once considered proper that a young girl's first crush be on a female kabuki actor playing a male role). The idea of this being a core part of one's identity was totally foreign. While there has been a certain hostility introduced over the last hundred and fifty years, it's certainly not deeply ingrained.

As for alternative sexualities like spirit-love, tentacle bondage like Urutsukidoji (and, in earlier periods, woodcuts like The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife—google it if you don't know) show that, while perhaps not appropriate for everyday society, interspecies relationships are far from unthinkable (I use the term in the literal sense).

~J

Honestly, the amount of racism in Shadowrun always kinda confused me. Sure it be kinda freaky when the guy next to you started to goblinize, but after you realize that the big guy with horns isn't going to eat you, you'd go on with your business as usual.

I believe gender issues would be the same, little odd at first then most would go "Ah, fuckit". Especially on the street/criminal levels, you aren't going to care what someone looks like when you know you can depend on them to watch your back and do what needs to be done. As the old saying goes "There are no atheists in a foxhole" I don't think there will be any racists or sexists in there as well.

It's taking a long time for people to feel that way about skin colour, so I think the reactions to the awakened are realistic. If anything, I think that people in the sixth world are more understanding in real life.

As to gender issues, I think that the societies that most of the DS posters come from are becoming more tolerant, it's just a matter of the rate you extrapolate.

More later...

Just what percentage of the population is not plain vanilla heterosexual? Its fairly easy to develop and keep a innacurate opinion of a group if you never have any first hand contact with them. In the case of a person's sexuality it is not necessarily something openly on display and so you can meet homosexuals in your daily life, never know it, and so keep your misconceptions about them.

Same-sex (and any other kind of) marriage is legal in SR, but how noticeable is it? Would same sex couples all be walking down the street with "I'm a married homosexual and proud of it!" t-shirts on? Probably not. I imagine that for most, once they have legal acceptance they will get on with their lives. Thus the issue only comes into the public eye when a religious nutcase detonates a bomb at an alternative marriage.

As long as the number of people who actually practice an alternative lifestyle remains a minority they would remain hidden from a lot of the population. And so whilst the law makes it all legal, most people keep their prejudices and misconceptions because they are not having them challenged on a daily basis, and non-heterosexuals get blown up by religious nutcases who see the very existance of alternative lifestyles as a threat to their beliefs.

There's still the question of visibility. A guy or girl walking down the street is generally not advertising their sexual preferences unless they have their arm around someone else. I suspect (I could be entirely wrong here) that this is true for a lot of alternative lifestyles. A transgender individual, especially one with access to SR level surgical technology would be impossible to pick out in a crowd.

Your workplace is populated with people hired by your superiors, and if they have a prejudice against alternative lifestyles then the only non-heterosexuals in your workplace will be ones that hide their lifestyle choices from their co-workers.

The media caters to the accepted majority, as well as the biases of its creators. Unless alternative lifestyles become something close to a majority they are likely to remain stereotyped or nonexistant in popular trideo and sim.

So a person might indeed interact with people of alternative lifestyles on a daily basis but unless the subject of sexuality comes up, and the individual(s) in question actually reveal their alternative lifestyles, a person can go through life with their prejudices unchallenged and pass them on to the next generation.

Nor should we forget that shadowtalk and most non-rules material is presented as hearsay, leaving it up to the gamemaster to determine if its right or wrong for their game.

As presented in Shadowrun, Japanese culture is uptight about those sorts of things (from what little we've seen about it, and most of what we've seen about it on that topic was presented, coincidentally, in that very adventure).

Just as some sexually "mundane" folks are going to hate people who aren't there're going to be those alternate lifestyle folks who get downright militant in crusading for their rights. It's a stereotype, but the feminist, mysangist die-penis-wielder-die type of lesbian is out there too. If we want to bring this into shadowrun relevance (beyond background stories and people who want to LARP with their sig-other) there can be all manner of runs available for or against such groups. And then there's a whole new variety of fetishes, preferences and persuasions with rare metatypes, magical effects and SURGE.
Wouldn't a lot of these groups have policlubs? Potential employers or targets?

just remember folks, it takes a lot more than a wang or a vag to make a guy or a girl.

physiological differences aside (bone structure and stuff).

It's a State of Mind.

Arguably, it takes a lot less (chromosomal makeup).

~J