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Fortune
Ok, so I understand the basics ... ActiveSoft ratings limited to the Skillwire's rating ... double 'wire's rating in ActiveSofts at any one time ... switching your 'soft configuration is pretty easy, taking only a Simple Action.

What I want to know is ...

#1 - I don't believe that you have to run around with a chip sticking out of the side of your head, so where are they stored after uploading? Do you just plug the into your Datajack and upload them into your head, maybe storing them in the 'jack? (Or a CommLink? Or a cyberlimb? Or your Predator IV?)

#2 - Is there any limit to the amount of 'Softs of any variety a person could have 'stored' (not accessed, but ready for accessing) at any time?

#3 - Is there a limit to the number and/or ratings of KnowSofts accessible at any one time?

#4 - I assume that ActiveSofts are run on the Skillwires themselves, and not on a CommLink. Where are KnowSofts run? If any of these run on a CommLink, do they count as active programs for the purposes of Response degradation? Also, if run on a 'Link, would the 'Soft's rating be limited by the CommLink's System/Response?

#5 - Can a person use an ActiveSoft for a Skill in which he is Incompetent?

#6 - Under what circumstances does one gain the benefits of a TutorSoft? Could he just activate it an hour here and there, whenever he gets a chance? Could he run it while he sleeps in some sort of self-hypnotic learning trance?

I'll probably have more questions following some answers to the above. biggrin.gif
The Jopp
1: You store the software in any device you deem appropriate. You could probably stor them in your clothes since they are all wireless devices as well.

2: Dont think so - if the GM has issues with it just add multiple copies on different devices (guns, socks, commlink, chips, etc). Or make sure you have a nice online storage, or a tiny drone.

3: I only think the max rating X2 is the only limiter, you can probably have 8 rating 1 skills at a rating 4 skillwire.

4: I would count such items as active programs since they can affect you quite a lot in terms of limiting your charisma linked skills by their rating (if i remember correctly).

The reason for that is that even if you are a hot negotiator in english your mandarin knofsoft might limit you a bit.

5: Yes, these are coded skills and not something he/she actually knows anything about anyway - they are pre-recorded.

6: No idea.
Konsaki
#6 - Yes and Yes, depending on your GM. It could be anything from a AR book, to the two things you suggested, or something else entirely.
Fortune
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Oct 22 2006, 05:32 AM)
2: Dont think so - if the GM has issues with it just add multiple copies on different devices (guns, socks, commlink, chips, etc). Or make sure you have a nice online storage, or a tiny drone.

So assuming a person had the cash, they could conceivably have every Active Skill and 100 different language and Knowledge Softs on tap, any of which could be ready for use with a mere Simple Action?

QUOTE
3: I only think the max rating X2 is the only limiter, you can probably have 8 rating 1 skills at a rating 4 skillwire.


That limit is for ActiveSofts running on Skillwires. KnowSofts and LinguaSofts don't need Skillwires, so any associated limit would not apply to them. Does something else factor into the equation to limit the amount of immediately accessible KnowSofts?

QUOTE
4: I would count such items as active programs since they can affect you quite a lot in terms of limiting your charisma linked skills by their rating (if i remember correctly).

The reason for that is that even if you are a hot negotiator in english your mandarin knofsoft might limit you a bit.


I'm not sure what you mean here, or how it actually relates to my question. If you are referring to LinguaSofts being less accurate than actual Language Skills, SR4 states that LinguaSofts provide expert translation and language skills.
Jaid
QUOTE (Fortune)
That limit is for ActiveSofts running on Skillwires. KnowSofts and LinguaSofts don't need Skillwires, so any associated limit would not apply to them. Does something else factor into the equation to limit the amount of immediately accessible KnowSofts?

-------

I'm not sure what you mean here, or how it actually relates to my question. If you are referring to LinguaSofts being less accurate than actual Language Skills, SR4 states that LinguaSofts provide expert translation and language skills.

i'll give my best shots at these:

linguasofts and knowsofts are programs. you can run programs based on the quality of your commlink/whatever it is. this is the limit you can have at one time.

and yes, if you have enough money, you could buy every single activesoft (knowsofts and linguasofts are, for all intents and purposes, unlimited in number). keep in mind that sometimes that action to get to it can be a problem, and that for very large amounts of data your GM can rule you can't store it all in one place... how much is too much depends on your GM's opinion. however, since we're talking about 'given enough money', you could presumably afford the cost of an optical chip to store the data on if you are buying the program in the first place... and since the optical chip is apparently wireless (or at least, nothing says it isn't) you should have enough storage, generally speaking.

---------

linguasofts are expert translation programs... in a way.

to put it another way, a given linguasoft almost has a specific dialect to it. for example, you might have a linguasoft for english. if it was american english, you would call a device that mechanically moves you up and down between floors in a building an elevator. if you had one for england, you would call such a device a lift.

similarly, you might see something like that for flat vs. apartment.

neither of those default linguasofts would tell you that someone offering to sell you weed isn't talking about undesirable plants. it wouldn't necessarily be able to tell the difference between Coke (ie coca-cola, or even just a cola type drink as the word is sometimes used) and coke (ie the illegal drug).

so do you see how an expert translation may not provide a very correct translation, in certain situations? a linguasoft will generally give you the kind of knowledge you might get from going to school and learning a given language. if you start coming across idiomatic expressions that are local to an area, slang expressions, and so forth, you wouldn't necessarily understand it properly.
Fortune
I understand that is how they used to work in previous editions. However, in SR4 it states ...

QUOTE (SR4-pg321)
Linguasoft: Linguasofts replicate language skills, allowing the user to speak a foreign language as fluently as her
native language
. Linguasofts may also be used as real-time
translation programs. Linguasofts must be accessed with a
direct neural link (either a sim module or datajack).


Emphasis mine, but it seems pretty clearly spelled out to me.
Fortune
QUOTE (Jaid)
linguasofts and knowsofts are programs. you can run programs based on the quality of your commlink/whatever it is. this is the limit you can have at one time.

So basically all 'Softs except ActiveSofts run on a person's Commlink, and count as Programs for determining performance degradation of the 'link. ActiveSofts actually run on the Skillwires themselves (and have their own built-in limit).

Do the 'Softs fall under the restrictions as to the rating limit of the Commlink's System and/or Response? Would a rating 5 Troll Recipes KnowSoft be limited to a rating of 3 when on a Commlink with System/Response of 3? Would this apply to all non-ActiveSofts?
Jaid
i don't see why the commlink's rating wouldn't apply to all 'softs of any kind.

and incidentally, i speak my native language (Canadian English, i suppose) quite fluently. that doesn't mean if someone from Australia comes up to me and starts talking, i'll understand everything they say. that doesn't mean i'll understand someone from Britain even, and all three of those countries are considered part of the commonwealth (albeit not quite as tightly bound as they once were). heck, if i go to some of the Southern states, they might not even use any of their local slang, and i still might not have a clue what the heck they're saying. same thing if i were to listen to someone with a strong irish or scottish accent. and for the life of me, i usually can't understand more than a word or two out of every sentence that comes out of the mouth of someone from India. and i can guarantee that if i go someplace where people bust out street slang, i won't understand it all.

my parents also speak Canadian English natively. i assure you, they don't have a clue what IRL, BRB, G2G, LOL, ROFL, or any other internet terms mean. if i showed them leet speak, their mind would probably melt into a puddle of goo just trying to understand that it actually does mean something, let alone that it is "english".

thus, 'as fluently as your native language' does not mean 'you understand all dialects, slang terms, idiomatic expressions, etc'... it would mean that, essentially, you must choose a lingo for that linguasoft to apply to... and the default is "as you would learn it in a school", or so i would assume.
Fortune
QUOTE (Jaid)
... thus, 'as fluently as your native language' does not mean 'you understand all dialects, slang terms, idiomatic expressions, etc'... it would mean that, essentially, you must choose a lingo for that linguasoft to apply to... and the default is "as you would learn it in a school", or so i would assume.

I'm not arguing real life semantics. I agree with what you are saying in that regard. That being said ...

According to the SR4 rules, Lingos are a Specialization of a Language Skill. Since the rules for LinguaSofts state that they 'replicate language skills', and make no reference to needing to apply specific Lingo rules, nor require (or even, IIRC allow) Specializations, your argument doesn't really apply.
Jaid
so, in other words, you only want to use the phrase "as fluently as her native language." when it happens to coincide with how you want it to work.

simply put, if you want to rule it that way, then you are looking at a situation where the linguasoft knows the default. that is, it knows the standard words in the language. it does not know any of the specific slang whatsoever, because it can't take the specialisations. at best, it might be able to fill in from context what the meaning of the word may be, because someone who speaks russian natively does not speak russian <insert some random lingo here> natively, they speak russian.
mfb
Jaid, that's incorrect. according to the rules, a person with English 5 and no specializations speaks english military jargon better than someone with English 2 (Military Jargon). a rating 5 english linguasoft allows someone to speak as if they had English 5. therefore...
zero skill LPB
For what I enjoy and focus on in a game that level of granularity only sounds fun in terms of glitches and critical glitches. I wouldn't bother bringing down the linguist hammer until a glitch occurred. Glitch = the 'soft used 'elevator' instead of 'lift' and the Tir goons narrow their eyes in suspicion, but let it slide for now; critical glitch = the 'soft kicks into Python mode and the PC gets "Spam, spam, spam, spam!" as every imperative response and "Wot's all this then?" as every interrogative response.

My wacky inclination is to treat 'softs in a tiered fashion like Programs. Rating 1 through 3 nets the user commonly-used phrases and allows for contextual parsing, rating 4 through 6 manages colloquial intricacies that are rarely useful, but become crucial when committing the Uber Con.
DireRadiant
You may wish to look at the Language Skill Table on p 129 for additional rules regarding language skill.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Fortune)
Do the 'Softs fall under the restrictions as to the rating limit of the Commlink's System and/or Response? Would a rating 5 Troll Recipes KnowSoft be limited to a rating of 3 when on a Commlink with System/Response of 3? Would this apply to all non-ActiveSofts?

It's software. So yes, limited by system/response.
DireRadiant
Personally I would give more weight to the Language Use rules in pages 128 to 130 then the single paragraph of item description in the gear section.

The gear description might be nefarious corporate advertising.
Ryu
You just need a DNI to use a knowsoft program. No comlink needed, only an access interface (either simlink or datajack). Therefore the limit on matrix programs of system/response does not apply.
Jaid
QUOTE (Ryu)
You just need a DNI to use a knowsoft program. No comlink needed, only an access interface (either simlink or datajack). Therefore the limit on matrix programs of system/response does not apply.

sure it does. you have to run the program on something... they don't run themselves.
hobgoblin
but you need some place to store the program (heh, i typed problem earlier. what a fitting typo nyahnyah.gif ). and alltho the SR4 world features virtualy limitless storage, this comes from the allways present matrix. so the comlink is needed as some kind of bridge. that is unless the GM allows you to store all your knowsofts in the datajack as its supposed to be equiped with memory now...
Kremlin KOA
I'll store them and run them on my credstick
shadowbod
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 22 2006, 10:32 AM)

sure it does. you have to run the program on something... they don't run themselves.

I always assumed that the skillwires had the necessary hardware to run the knowsofts.

(edited for typos)
hobgoblin
QUOTE (shadowbod)
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 22 2006, 10:32 AM)

sure it does. you have to run the program on something... they don't run themselves.

I always assumed that the skillwires had the necessary hardware to run the knowsofts.

(edited for typos)

skillwires are not needed for the use of knowsofts...
Da9iel
But in the absence of a data jack or comlink, will they run knowsofts? Arguably: yes.
Ryu
Hey, its just searching pre-organised data.

Anything with DNI can run the knowsoft - a comlink is just one way of accessing the data. Your eyes themselves will probably not be wireless-enabled.
Rotbart van Dainig
KnowSofts need a Sim Module to run...
Fortune
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
KnowSofts need a Sim Module to run...

Ah ... good to know. Thanks. smile.gif
Serbitar
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Oct 22 2006, 06:41 PM)
KnowSofts need a Sim Module to run...

Or a Datajack. Both provide a DNI.

By the way, I do not think that a Sim Module is necessary, as trodes or an implanted comlink already provide a DNI. Thus I think the rules on page 320 might be wrong.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Thus I think the rules on page 320 might be wrong.

If that's the case, it may as well be wrong to assume that any DNI suffices.
As there are no chipjacks anymore, datajacks are their successor.
Ryu
Well, why should only the two examples of DNI qualify? In that case a complete list of acceptable devices would have been sufficient.

The statement that a sim module is needed is wrong. There is at the very least one other option, and in my opinion much more. I admit that the capabilities of devices are not well defined, and that I would have preferred more complexity in this regard. But it is not to be and any mentally controlled piece of cyberware provides the necessary DNI.
Fortune
So I would just need a Datajack (and a Commlink) to use KnowSofts and LinguaSofts? And the concensus is that a 'Soft's rating would be limited by the Commlink's System/Response, and counts as an active program?
Serbitar
A Datajack without a comlink suffices, by RAW.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Oct 23 2006, 04:02 AM)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Oct 23 2006, 10:12 AM)
Thus I think the rules on page 320 might be wrong.

If that's the case, it may as well be wrong to assume that any DNI suffices.
As there are no chipjacks anymore, datajacks are their successor.

RAW states explicitly that a DNI is enough.
Though, I would favor a brakedown into DNI and knowledgesoft interpreter. See my overview here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...pic=15137&st=12
Fortune
QUOTE (Serbitar)
A Datajack without a comlink suffices, by RAW.

Then, as programs, what do the 'Softs actually run on? I understand they can be 'stored' pretty much anywhere, but don't they need some kind of operating system or the like to actually work?
Serbitar
They run on the Datajack, which is a device.
Fortune
QUOTE (Serbitar)
They run on the Datajack, which is a device.

Devices have ratings. Are 'Softs therefore limited in rating to that of the device in question?
Rotbart van Dainig
Computer Programs are limited by System, which is limited by Response... Device Rating is applied to both.
Knowsofts, on the other hat, aren't.
Jaid
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Computer Programs are limited by System, which is limited by Response... Device Rating is applied to both.
Knowsofts, on the other hat, aren't.

system limits the ratings of all programs. there is nothing to indicate that knowsofts are any different, since they are programs.
Serbitar
I would say that knowsoft is data.
Lantzer
Nah. a datasoft is data. A knowsoft is _knowledge_. This difference is one you access, read, index, and flip through as neccesary. The other you access and then _know_.
Edward
Personally I assumed the skill wires included a fare quantity of memory, and that any soft that was running had to be stored in that memory (just like program has to be stored on a COM link to run on that COM link

The limit on softs stored is ďreasonable memory useĒ otherwise known as the GM will inform you when your being unreasonable and you will have to find another device to store some of it, notably increasing the time it takes to activate those softs stored elsewhere.

So yes you can conceivably have every active skill (except magic and resonance linked skills) and hundred of knowsofts and linguasofts available. It is however not cheep (unless you have your hacker steal them) and it doesnít make a huge difference to the game, the skills are only at 4 points and you cant use edge. And youíre unlikely to use many of those skills. I played a character that kept an open account with several online skill soft retailers (effectively having 6 second access to every skill soft, even the infinite know softs), every time we needed a skill we didnít have I purchased it. all we ever got was 3 combat skills a couple of knowledge skills and the parachuting skill (that in the end we didnít use because a member of the party didnít have skill wires so we used levitate instead.)


Fortune
QUOTE (Edward)
Personally I assumed the skill wires included a fare quantity of memory, and that any soft that was running had to be stored in that memory (just like program has to be stored on a COM link to run on that COM link

Yeah, that is the way I figured it worked for ActiveSofts. This can't be the default rule for KnowSofts or LinguaSofts though, as they can be used regardless of the presense of Skillwires.
hobgoblin
skillwires have a built in limit:

it can run a number of activesofts with a total rating equal to its own rating X2.

page 335...
Fortune
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
skillwires have a built in limit:

it can run a number of activesofts with a total rating equal to its own rating X2.

page 335...

Who are you responding to with this post? This was never in question, and in fact was mentioned in my very first post in this thread.
hobgoblin
a very good question, i have no idea what so ever frown.gif
Fortune
It's cool. Take solace in the fact that your post was totally accurate. wink.gif biggrin.gif
hobgoblin
thanks, good to know.
hmm, im suspecting that it had something to do with the storage capacity of the skillwires and me not being fully wake...
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