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Triggerz
Street Magic says: "The adept may only attune a number of individual items equal to her initiate grade, and she may not receive benefits from more than one attuned item in a single action." I understand the intent behind that limitation as meaning that you cannot get bonus dice from two different items for a single test. However, if you are using two ranged weapons at the same time, you are splitting your pool and roll the two shots separately. If I have an attuned gun in each hand, do I get the bonus dice for both tests? Would I get the right-hand gun's attunement bonus for the right-hand gun's test and the left-hand gun's attunement bonus for the left-hand gun's test at the same time? It'd be a pretty big boost, I guess, so it might be abusive. On the other hand, even though shooting the two guns simultaneously is considered a single simple action in game terms, it is also arguably two completely seperate actions with independent outcomes. (You roll the shots separately.) Just wondering what everyone's opinion on the matter is...

Also, what about Improved Ability(skill)? The BBB says: "Improved Ability does not actually improve a skillís rating, it only provides additional dice for tests involving the skill." and (regarding two-weapon range combat) "Split the pool before applying modifiers." Would the Improved Ability dice count fully on both tests (with two pistols, for example)?
Dentris
The errata version of the Improved Ability (skill) power is different. It says: the power increases the rating of a specific active skill.

So the answer to your second question is: improved ability bonus is split along with the dice pool.
gunsnammo
There is an errata for Street Magic? Where?

Triggerz
Gunsnammo, the errata is for the BBB. I hadn't seen that change. It's a pretty serious limitation, but I guess they wanted to bring everyone in line in terms of dice pools. Thanks for the info, Dentris.
Triggerz
In light of this new development, I guess I'll still attune my two guns, but I'll use only half of the bonus for each. I'm a sucker for symmetry. What can I say?
Dentris
About attuning yourself with two guns: it all depends of your GM. I would personnaly say you add the attunement bonus for each gun.
Triggerz
Even when shooting both at the same time? I'm tempted to read the rule the same way you do, but I wouldn't want to make it a game breaker either. Adding the full bonus to each gun is pretty scary. Another example would be two attuned melee weapons. If you attack two oppenents at the same time, you split the pool. Having two attuned weapons with the full bonus to each might be too powerful. Although... it'd be sweet too. nyahnyah.gif


EDIT: I'll have to look into positive and negative modifiers more seriously, I think. Maybe it's not as overpowered as I first assumed.
Dentris
Well, attuning oneself with a gun costs 8-9 karma, depending on the type, and gives a bonus equal to the initiate grade divided by 2. Which means the bonus will likely never go beyond 2 or 3, which is hardly game-breaking, IMO
Cold-Dragon
Also, each gun would have it's own dice, since they aren't stacking when you're using two separate weapons. So that's 1-3 or so dice after you split up for the two guns

Or so I would say anyways.
Triggerz
Ok, cool. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think it's ok. It could become very powerful at high initiation grades, but in the end, even that wouldn't be all that big a deal: it's just a few extra dice to shoot a gun. It won't work on a weapon foci, which prevents crazy stackable bonuses, and weapon foci are significantly more powerful (although you cannot get ranged weapons for foci), so I guess it's alright. I'll be attuning two short swords as well (if I have enough karma to reach grade 4). It should be fun to spear two guys at once - one with each sword.

Another quick question. If you have a weapon focus (or a single attuned weapon) and attack several guys in the same combat phase, do you split the pool and then add the WF dice fully to each attack, or do you add the bonus dice first and then split? My reading of the rules would be the first since the attacks involve separate tests. Is that a correct interpretation?
Fortune
QUOTE (SR4-pg191)
In physical combat, weapon foci add their Force in dice to the characterís dice pool for melee attacks. The character still relies on her Physical attributes and skills in combat; the weapon focus merely makes him more effective.


Since the Focus adds to the Pool, and not to the actual Skill, it would be added after the Pool was split.
Cold-Dragon
In theory (you will want to look up weapon foci and see if there's a definite answer there first) the bonus dice from attunement or foci apply in ANY situation the item is used. So long as you're not trying to use more than one source, it's constant.

So If you're insane, you could, in theory (a):

have a rating of 6 in swords and a sword foci of 6 (with agility 6 too, whoo-hoo!)
choose 6 opponents, putting 2 dice to each person
gain 6 dice to EACH separate test due to the sword foci.

or theory (b):
have a rating of etc, etc, etc.
GAIN 6 dice from the weapon foci (giving you 18 dice)
choose 6 opponents, putting 3 to each person


This is being very simple, not including any modifiers that may come up from splitting to so many people, surprise, etc, etc. I vaguely recall weapon foci working in the fashion of theory A, but I might be thinking of using two foci so each split of dice got the full bonus. Theory B makes more sense an is less broken. Ultimately, it depends on the wording of weapon foci.

And now that I look at the wording...page 191 under weapon foci says the dice go to the pool, so Theory B wins if you consider the pool to be the total dice before being split up, but theory A wins if you also split dice to be separate pools which each benefit because they're using the weapon.

And A will also lose if your higher up gets pissed at you trying to cut off several heads so easily, lol! I would trust B more than A right now in that A probably has a hole or three in it I didn't see. wink.gif

*drops 2 nuyen into the tin*

*EDIT*

Fortune put a point towards Theory A methinks. *puts 2 nuyen into Fortune's tin*
Fortune
It doesn't really matter why the Pool is split. It could be from attacking with 2 weapons, or it might be because you want to lay out a couple of street thugs with a quarterstaff (or any other single weapon used for multiple attacks). The general rule is that Modifiers are added after a Pool is split. Each and every attack made with a Weapon Focus will have its full Force added to the Pool.
Cold-Dragon
My part on the pool being split was if there was a note somewhere that specifically kept bonus dice from going to split pools rather than the original pool as a whole. I wasn't saying you couldn't, I was saying I wasn't sure.

but hey, I like it, makes theory A more zesty, and weapon foci more capable. Shame on the headache for some, but you can't always have it easy. XD
Fortune
I wasn't arguing ... more like clarifying my earlier statement. wink.gif
Triggerz
The BBB also states: "When a player makes a test, she rolls a number of dice equal to her dice pool. The dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifiers that may apply." [Emphasis mine] The terminology used is extremely confusing. I greatly admire the creativity and fiction-writing talent of the guys at FanPro, but they need a hard-ass editor who will force them to write more clearly when it comes to game concepts and mechanics.

Let's use an example. A guy with a weapon focus - let's say it's a katana - is attacking two other guys in the same complex action. The attacker's "base pool" is Agility+Blades.

Using option A, he has two "split pools" of (Agility+Blades)/2 each. Then he has two "modified split pools" of [(Agility+Blades)/2]+WF+M (where WF represents the rating of the focus and M refers to all of the other applicable modifiers).

Using option B, the attackers has a "modified base pool" of (Agility+Blades+WF), and then two split pools of [(Agility+Blades+WF)/2] and, finally, two "modified split pools" of [(Agility+Blades+WF)/2]+M.

Target-specific modifiers are obviously always applied only to the split pool assigned to that target. Not all modifiers are that obvious though, and if you attack 6 different guys in the same combat phase with a Force 6 weapon focus, your WF gives you 36 bonus dice instead of six for that combat phase, although never more than 6 per test. I guess it's not really all that different from the smartlink's bonus applying twice if you fire twice in the same combat phase (with just one gun), or from using the WF to defend against more than one attack in the same initiative pass.

Although, on the latter, the wording of the WF's description in the BBB would make me think that a WF only provides bonus dice on attack tests - and not on defense -, although I guess your defense is always someone else's attack: "In physical combat, weapon foci add their Force in dice to the characterís dice pool for melee attacks." (The rest of the description uses an equally vague terminology.) I know better, of course, as I've been playing SR since the very beginning of the second edition and WF have always provided bonus dice to defense as well. I'm just mentioning it as another example of poor editing (IMO). Game rules should be explained much more clearly. An editor who doesn't know anything about SR would be the best to review the explanations of game mechanics as he would not assume anything. He'd ask questions about the stuff that's not obvious and would require the writers to clarify what they mean. Oh! Well...

On the power of WF, I think it's ok if a skilled swordsman with a Force 12 WF can cut in half a few average fighters every initiative pass. A more average adept armed with a Force 6 WF would be extremely dangerous too, but then again, a Force 6 anything is usually pretty significant. If you're dumb enough to face that guy in melee without being a combat-oriented adept yourself (or some other kind of combat monster), then you probably deserve to have your head chopped off. A street sam with a machine gun - or even a sub - can easily kill two guys in a single initiative pass. Why would it be such a big deal if an adept with a Force 6 WF can do the same thing? Sure, he'll chop heads off easily... but would you expect him not to?

As of now, I don't think option A is all that overpowered, but I haven't made an SR4 version of my adept yet so I'm still a bit fuzzy on what it means concretely. Now that I have Street Magic though, I'll probably give it a shot soon. I still need to finish reading SM first though.
Fortune
You hit on the key when you say the "base Pool is Agility + Blades". The Attribute plus the Skill are what make up the basic Pool (plus anything else that specifically adds directly to either of those). Anything else is defined as adding dice to a Pool. The base Pool is what is split, then all modifiers are added afterward.
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