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Konsaki
Ok, here are a few questions I thought up while looking at the skillwire thread:

Could TMs use Knowsofts and Linguasofts without a commlink?
Example: Store the softs on their cloths and activate them using their brains directly through WiFi.

Would they use their persona stats (Response and System) to figure out their highest rating they can run?

And finally: Would a TM run into the same thing a hacker would of running too many programs and suffering Response loss or would you limit it to 1 program running at a time?

Personally, I say yes to Q1 and Q2, but use the 1 active soft limit for Q3 as a limit.

What are your opinions?
Dentris
No, technomancers cannot use linguasoft ans knowsofts using their own resonance powers. They could still buy a datajack implant (lowering their resonance at the same time) to read them, but it would be considered totally unrelated to the TM powers. I think he could thread knowsofts and linguasofts, though, as well as autosofts.
Konsaki
/Scratches head

If I needed a datajack to use these, and lose Res due to Ess loss, I would just compile a Data Sprite of R3 or higher with the Linguasoft I needed. I dont have a BBB on hand so I dont know which sprite, if any, can do Knowsofts.

Losing 1RES for a stupid datajack isnt worth it IMO.
Dentris
It isn't, i agree. Registering a data sprite is probably a better idea. I'm just trying to see what is the ruling in this situation.
BlackHat
The way I figure, a technomancer could connect to a linguasoft running on another device (clothes) but would then be limited by the rating of the clothes as to how well the soft can run. A technomancer could probably thread a linguasoft - but none of the data that would need to go into it (he cant' jsut magically know how to speak in french - but could probably fake the interface to allowing such data to interact with his brain)... and could then probably connect to a lingua soft stored on any other device but be running it in his threaded program.

Of course, the REAL answer (like most to these sorts of questions) is that it is up to each individual GM since the core rules are so lacking
Konsaki
Very true about that last statement, BlackHat. Though some GMs rely on discussion threads like this one to make a better informed decision on their rulings.

As for threading a lingua soft, I dont know... You have that entire -2 dice roll just for sustaining the thread, and your unregistered sprite should be able to translate for you in real time just like the linguasoft would. Just figure that the R of the sprite is the R of the linguasoft. As long as it continues only on that one task, translating X language, it can hold it up for 8 hours total, when it will decompile.

Considering at 6Res, 5Will and 3Compile, I can on average compile R6 sprites with no fading, having a good enough linguasoft should be no problem.

Edit: the hardest part in all this would be guessing the correct language to translate. I would say a (logic + intuition) test would give you an idea of what language it might be based off how many hits you get:
1H - what continent it's based out of (Asia)
2H - region of that continent (South east)
3H - give 3 to 5 options of what it might be (Chinese, Indian, Philipean)
4H - What language it is (Chinese)
Serbitar
I rule the following:

Lingua and Datasoft ist mostly content data.
A TM can not create content data, but only use complex form that process data.

Furthermore, one needs a DNI to emulate the knowsoft with your brain, which is provided by a SIM module or datajack.

A technomancer is able to access Linguasoft and Knowsoft via his biological comlink, but he can not use it like a skill. He would have to look up every word in the Linguasoft for example and not just speak the language. Same goes for Knowsoft: He has to look up everything oposite to somebody actually running Knowsoft on a DNI who just "knows" everything peovided by the soft.
DireRadiant
Serbitar, how does a technomancer use AR and VR without the equivalent of a DNI?

My opinion is the lingua/knowsoft must run on another device, but the TM can access and use it.
Big D
Which is Yet Another Reason A TM Should Carry A Commlink™.
Glayvin34
Linguasofts and knowsofts certainly can't be threaded, that doesn't make any sense. But a TM can have a commlink, cold sim and trodes to use knowsofts and linguasofts like anyone else.

But I think you're asking if a TM can use just trodes or a wireless transmitter and access the 'soft, and use it in his Living Persona (limited as usual by the appropriate device ratings). And I still think the answer is no, the TM can't run other programs in his Living Persona, only Complex Forms.
Serbitar
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
Serbitar, how does a technomancer use AR and VR without the equivalent of a DNI?

My opinion is the lingua/knowsoft must run on another device, but the TM can access and use it.

A TM can "feel" the wireless data stream just if he had a SIM module. But this does not include knowledge-link functionality. that is something comepletely different
A DNI, is cyberware, that transforms knowledge into something that is not only readable by the brain but also allowes the brain to treat the data like its own knowledge. That is something which si way different from simple VR/AR perception, and you need cyberware for that (a DNI).

TMs are not "do all and can all"s.
Konsaki
So you are saying that to use a Cold or Hot SIM, you need to have it installed into your head or connected to a datajack, but not trodes, to work, then? A SIM module requires a DNI to work, per canon Pg 318.

Technomancers have a Hot-SIM built into their brain, so wouldnt it be safe to say that they have the required DNI access to make softs work? It's not like your SIM module connected to your commlink has the data right on it all the time. It's accessing it just like a TM would.
Serbitar
You can use a SIM module either by implanting it, or conencting it to your brain via trodes or a datajack (wirelessly of course).
As I said, I would call trodes DNI, though RAW forgot to say so.

(The conflict is: Per RAW you need DNI to use SIM, and trodes definately enable you to sue SIM and must thus provide DNI. But the trodes are not mentioned as means to use knowsoft, though only a DNI is, per RAW, needed).

I am also saying, that the natural SIM Module a TM carries does work as a DNI, but not as knowsoft/languagesoft interpreter. Unfortunately, in SR4 DNI and interpreter seems to be the same.

So what I am doing is the following: Splitting the RAW DNI into a "real" DNI and a knowsoft interpreter:

item, DNI, knowsoft interpreter
Implanted SIM Module, yes, yes
External SIM Module, no, yes
datajack, yes, yes
Trodes, yes, no
TM, yes, no
Konsaki
QUOTE (Serbitar)
CODE
item,                    DNI, knowsoft interpreter
Implanted SIM Module,    yes,    yes
External SIM Module,     no,     yes
datajack,                yes,    yes
Trodes,                  yes,    no
TM,                      yes,    no

Question - If an external SIM module is an acceptable DNI and trodes are a way to access that DNI (Can use them for the VR DNI), why cant you use trodes for Knowsofts and Linguasofts?
Piggybacking off that question, Why cant a TM access the data and do the same with his own internal SIM module?

IIRC, in canon there is no 'Real DNI' nor 'Raw DNI', there is just DNI (Direct Neural Interface)
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Oct 23 2006, 07:08 AM)
I am also saying, that the natural SIM Module a TM carries does work as a DNI, but not as knowsoft/languagesoft interpreter. Unfortunately, in SR4 DNI and interpreter seems to be the same.

So what I am doing is the following: Splitting the RAW DNI into a "real" DNI and a knowsoft interpreter:

It's this bit where I would disagree. Purely for game purposes I would enable a TM to use lingua/knowsofts if they were on another device. I don't see much harm in it, since effectively the only advantage the TM gets in this case is they don't need Trodes to use the linguasoft. Which is exactly in line with what a TM already does to the Matrix.

It's still not allowing the TM to run the software on their own persona, but it's just getting rid of the trodes requirement, since -anyone- can use the linguasoft with trodes.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Konsaki)
Question - If an external SIM module is an acceptable DNI and trodes are a way to access that DNI (Can use them for the VR DNI), why cant you use trodes for Knowsofts and Linguasofts?

I don't agree with Serbitar on this one.
From the Book:
A TM can use trodes to access a sim module:
QUOTE (318)
A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc).

Then use that sim module to access the knowsoft:
QUOTE (Page 320)
Knowsofts must be accessed with a direct neural link (either a sim module or datajack).

It's kind of confusing when they say "trodes or a DNI" on page 318, but it seems pretty clear on page 320.

QUOTE (Konsaki)
Piggybacking off that question, Why cant a TM access the data and do the same with his own internal SIM module?

Well, read the description of Complex Forms on page 233. It seems to say that TMs only have CFs that mimic the programs that start on page 225.
If a TM designs a mental algorithm that mimics a knowsoft, it's called a knowledge skill. grinbig.gif
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Serbitar)

item, DNI, knowsoft interpreter
Implanted SIM Module, yes, yes
External SIM Module, no, yes
datajack, yes, yes
Trodes, yes, no
TM, yes, no

Why doesn't an external sim module qualify as a DNI?
Serbitar
How could an external commlink connect to the brain?
You need a DNI for that, like trodes.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Serbitar)
How could an external commlink connect to the brain?
You need a DNI for that, like trodes.

I see what you mean. I thought you meant that an external sim module can never be used for DNI. That's right, you do need trodes.

But if you have an external commlink equipped with a sim module and trodes, and you happen to be a Technomancer, you think you can still use knowsofts and linguasofts, right?
Konsaki
or how about skipping the SIM module and trodes entirely and just access the program running on the commlink with your mind directly.

The only reason you need a SIM module is to translate data into something the mind understands. Well, the TM's mind understands pure data, so you can access the commlink through WiFi and still have it work.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Glayvin34)

But if you have an external commlink equipped with a sim module and trodes, and you happen to be a Technomancer, you think you can still use knowsofts and linguasofts, right?

Of course.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Konsaki)
The only reason you need a SIM module is to translate data into something the mind understands. Well, the TM's mind understands pure data, so you can access the commlink through WiFi and still have it work.

No, there is a difference between understanding the data, like reading the data like a book, or knowing everything in the data instantly like your standard knowledge. Knowsoft does the latter, a TM does the former.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Konsaki)
or how about skipping the SIM module and trodes entirely and just access the program running on the commlink with your mind directly.

The only reason you need a SIM module is to translate data into something the mind understands. Well, the TM's mind understands pure data, so you can access the commlink through WiFi and still have it work.

Yeah, what Serb said. Knowsofts aren't searchable databases, they basically add associative information to your brain. You need simsense for that. A knowsoft can't be accessed if it's just running on a commlink, Agents don't have sim modules.
I guess you could make some sort of a Computer skill test to figure out the info in the knowsoft in the absence of a sim mod, but it would be an extended test. And it's not crazy to houserule that a Living Person can access a knowsoft running on a comm equipped with a sim module. But I would say that sim module must be modified for hot sim. It is a little crazy to houserule that a TM's organic sim module can access a knowsoft on a comm that does not have a sim module.
Eben McKay
Okay, so let's start this over:

-A TM can access the Matrix. Hence, they have the equivalent of a commlink (minus storage).
-A TM can go into VR. Hence, they have the equivalent of a sim module.

It takes a DNI to access a knowsoft or linguasoft. This is made available by plugging the chip into a datajack or a sim module. Since TMs have the equivalent of a sim module, they can use knowsofts.

However, at this point we need more information. How do chips work in 2070? Are they wirelessly accessible, or do they need something to "plug in" to? If they are wireless, then I see no problem with a TM running all the knowsofts in his coat pocket as needed.

As it is, I don't see knowsofts and linguasofts being all that unbalancing. Hell, if a TM is online at all times, a good NeoGoogle search takes seconds and is almost as informative as your average knowsoft. And then there's BabelWhale Phonetic Edition ™ for a cheap linguasoft. grinbig.gif
deek
Based on the base rules and fluff...EVERYTHING is wi-fi capable, so I wouldn't have a problem allowing the 'softs being accessible wirelessly.
Glayvin34
The way I see it, the commlink running the 'soft needs to have a sim module equipped. A comm running a 'soft in the absence of a sim module can't translate the signals into simsense. I guess you could rule that the comm reads the 'soft, then sends the unprocessed signals to the TM's brain where the simsense is processed. That doesn't seem right to me, but the rules don't contradict that interpretation.
ChicagosFinest
I thought softs could be added into a TM sprites programing. IE: a machine sprite can have auto softs if the TM programs those in during creation (or was it install in the drone and when the sprite mounts it he gets the benifits?)
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