Hey, all. Recently returning to SR and trying to catch up with some history. So, here's my basic question- what's happened to Tir Tairngire since the sourcebook, and where can I find that info? I saw on the Wiki that the Council of Princes is no more. Where was that revealed, or what happened? ^_^
Thanks.

Shadows of North America has quite a bit of info updating Tir Tairngire.

There might be more in the main SR4 book, I'll take a look again.

SoNA is entirely out of date from a political perspective. At best it provides a fig leaf explaining why whatever happened, happened. Exactly what and especially how are...not well explained.

First thing that springs to mind is Runner Havens. Has a tidbit about the Tir in it.

Yeah, I understand that. But coming from the point of view of someone who only has access to the original Tir Tairngire sourcebook and is interested in more information, SoNA definitely qualifies as an update on that nation.

According to Runner Havens (sorry, had to find my copy of it) Tir Tairngire is now a democracy led by Larry Zincan, an ork and a former Prince. The wall bordering Portland is gone, metahumans are at least citizens now, the underground "Rinelle ke'Tesrae" is now helping form political opinions, Lofwyr is gone and Hestaby is now the dragon of the Tir. Smuggling is still going on and the Tir is in an economical slump, but other than that, I don't know.

I'd suggest checking out SoNA and RH for better info.

Anything new info on the other princes in RH? Aside from that little bit (either it was in SF or SR4) about Surehand hiding from the Ghosts?

Nothing clwear but it is heavily implied that they've just shifted their power to behind the scenes.

The Princes largely vanished, bailing out of the country. The Council of Princes is no more, with the Star Chamber having turned into an actual representative body. No idea if social upheaval has eradicated even the *concept* of princes and social strata, but I'd imagine so. When Portland's wall came down, those on the hill (Royal Hill? I forget the name now) pretty much vamoosed, and had their estates looted.

Boiling it down, it sounds like the French Revolution, with a lil' less Guillotiene.

Which is, y'know, patently ridiculous given the power levels of the characters in question, and the number of other extremely powerful combat-oriented Initiatory Groups sworn to serve them.

If previous editions hadn't worked so damned hard at spelling out exactly how things worked, this one suddenly turning that on it's head (in the face of logic and reason) wouldn't have been such a big deal. But when you spend sourcebook after sourcebook after novel after shadow-hint explaining just how badass some people are, just how badass their magically-sworn-to-loyalty soldiers are, yadda yadda yadda, having those people suddenly running scared (or having swathes of them suddenly betraying Oaths with a capital O, aka, also betraying their Initiatory Groups) is just...ugh.

I understand things had to get all shaken up, or whatever, but the changes to TT just felt heavy-handed and pointless.

I'm treating the changes as mostly cosmetic, the poers have realisied that the old ways don't work and have let the revolution win while disappearing into the background to adjust and continue their plans, plus a decent chunk of the real power in the Tir had already left, Ehran to the DIMR and Aithne to attack Lofwyr(most probably).

Well, you can file in some explinations with some work. Erhan had bailed on the place already, Lofwyr was out, and Surehand was "Sulking in his tent like a guy from Chile" (Read a book!) ... you'd better believe that ol' Wordsmyth was, if not teh main player in teh Tir, at least in the top three. Turning his guys loose or, worse, actively against those in control would be a HUGE move. Then you add in Hestaby, who had promised that she wouldn't let the Elves blast through her land and into Free Cal ... and who may well have pulled strings to make it happen. Fostering a rebellion "Of the people" is right up her alley, doubly so if she'd found that a Prince or two had engaged in Downtime Hunting. "You killed one of my kind, so, I'm breaking your little dream. Now, we're even."

From there, it's just sociology. Once the economy went south, the middle class, which normally keeps things stable, saw that their only chance of advanced (The games) were gone, thus stranding them at their current level for good. and that level was dropping, thanks to the Embargo. Crime went up as some members got turfed frmo jobs and had no other way to survive, which meant more police, which meant higher taxes, which lead to more grumbling (And a few more entries into the homeless side), and then THAT lead to riots, which were caught on camera, including the brutal counter-repression, which foisted MORE discontent ... it was an ugly spiral.

Being able to whip up a Force 9 Fire Spirit to disperse a crowd doesn't play well on the evening news, lemme tells ja.

From there, it was a simple thing where the majority had reason to rebel, so did, and the country basicly semi-collapsed until the citizen coup. In all likelyhood, the Tir will limp along for a few years until a major player (Erhan?) pops back up to take control again as president/prime minister, rebuilding the Body Politic and the country in a more republican way.

Probably a parlimentary system akin to England's, with the Star Chamber and the Council of Princes as the lower and upper houses, respectively, topped with an elected official ... probably a general election, rather than the ascension of a Prince, but, you never know.

And Hestaby will put a lil' checkmark on her "ToDo" list.

Sure it does... When you own the news. You think North Korea's news agency (singular) report on any, let alone every, act of violence by the state that may occur?

I still think that the fact that they kept the name Star Chamber is really the most callow and obvious sign that things haven't changed, you know, given the sheer irony of the chamber being called that in the first place (which Nigel Findley was apt to mention pretty heavy-handedly). At least, I hope it was considered. However, the likelihood of my hopes vs reality being the same or even proximate are nil.

It was considered and we'll get round to the Tir soon enough.

Pity your mind is made up regarding SR4. Submissions for that particular book will be coming up soon. But then again you probably wouldn't like the constraints the writers tend to be under.

[edited and corrected]

Wakshaani I think has the right of it in just how it may come about. The Tir as described in SoNA was pretty hopeless. You can only opress a people so much before they fight back, and with a pair of dragons quietly helping things along...

We did have a regime change along the lines of what was set up in the Tir SB (the vote of no confidence, complete w/ extracting Blake Ladner so that his vote was "yes") in our game, but we kept the same general Tir caste system. I think it's more interesting than another democracy. I do like that Larry Zincan is in charge though.

Eitehr way I'm looking forward to seeing the deatils on the changes.

Wow, I only read the Tir Tairngire book last week. At the end I was horrified at the fascist Princes and now I find out they're gone?
Cool! Which books should I read to explain such a great turn of events?

Please tell me a firing squad was involved with at least one Prince?

KK:
System Failure did have the run idea about Lugh Surehand being on the run from Ghosts. personally I didn't care for that since he's an IE, and shouldn't have to run from most anyone, but it works in the context of the idea that it's trying to show the upheavel going on. Just push the *I forgot he's immortal/all powerful* button.

There are a couple of people pushing me very hard to do just that.

There are also quite a few reasons why I did effectively give up. Whether that ever changes is contingent on a lot more than them, no matter how close we are, harping on me to do it.

Apologies but our ISP at work ran into trouble while I was editing my original post and I couldn't get refreshes to work from international sites. Just got home and I am editing the post now.

For the record, I'm British, though I do live in the Portuguese capital of Lisbon.

From the few examples of games that I've seen that you ran, you defintely have interesting ideas. You shouldn't have to worry to much about things like how you say things thanks to editors as much as what you have to say, you're ideas. Assuming your writing is at least intelligible.

And don't yell at me, I've read some of your fiction, and I know it is. Just saying in general.

Sorry about that apparently the ISProvider's problems earlier tonight are related to the fact that Lisbon is currently under one of the biggest storms in the past 10 years and we're suffering brown-outs and power failures in several areas of town. It just caught up with me at home and my connection is fluctuating on and off, and refreshing doesn't always work. That last post was my connection dropping out as I added the last few words.

I think I'll retire for the night before it happens again...

At first it may seem silly that the oh-so-powerful IE's of TT would loose power to the masses. But then again, Ehran, maybe the most powerful of them, left. Oakforest left. Asshole-Alachia probably wouldn't want to give power away, but she's got other interests, the Atlantean foundation and Tir Na nOg, at least to some extent. And if Harlequin was behind the rinelle, well, he's supposed to be the most powerful metahuman magician on the planet. And that's only the elves, I think Hestaby had her claws in this equation too, and maybe other Greats.

I think the least problematic result is that the chief executive isn't someone whose reputation is for mediation and consensus-building, as opposed to firm leadership. It's almost as if some of the Princes would want to test his resolve to see if he failed or focused...

Fact is, what is canon was reconcilable with about 90% of what I wrote last October as part of a campaign (which, curse the demigods, has only reached the climax after 13 months). However, my ideas tend to be rather bloody and far less satisfactory as, for example, the conclusion of the first gig of Standalone Complex: All of the intrigue, and none of the "right" or "just" payoff. Maybe it's from all those years rooting for the villains.

In all honesty, if you are looking for someone who is insanely committed to making the Tir a superb setting and who can write circles around me, talk to Critias (assuming he has the time).

DE should probably tell you the same thing.