Emphasis added.

Edit: And with Quick Draw rules, you can draw them both, too.

Exellent

Edit: yeah the idea was to fire them both. I assume different hands as drawing a weapon maybe a free action but I don't think puting it away is.

Going the Matrix route, you can also fire one, drop it (which I would think would be a non-action) then quick draw the next and fire.

edited for clarity.

Unless you use the Adept Power.

You can conceal a small revolver more effectively than most pistols of the same caliber. And most small pistols have very limited magazines, like 6.

There. Fixed it for you .

Technically, you are correct.

(I could point out that in german language the revolver's cylinder is sometimes referred to as magazine, but I won't, because I believe that is, technically, incorrect ).

...KK has dual Hidden Gun arm slides for her Warhawks.

If you use dual revolvers though, make sure you also have dual speed loaders since you only get 6 shots each. Of course, with a Warhawk loaded with EXEX, that's 6 Very Big shots each (8DV -4AP).

Considering that the reality is that they don't work for anything that seems a safe assumption.

...nothing in the BBB that says you can't. It just mentions any weapon of pistol size (not delineating between light medium or heavy) to include machine pistols. Of course with Arsenal this may change & then she'll have to go with standard quick draw holsters.

As to the third arm (cyber?), useless for KK since she is an adept.

I'd chalk that up to lack of detailed writing. We can go on about the whole "we can write books on the things they can list that you can't do", but really it's a common sense issue about the size of your sleeve you're trying to fit the warhawk in to. If it were a troll, I'd say sure, no biggie. Perhaps even an ork with very large sleeves. There's no reason you can't make a bigger arm slide.

Like I keep telling my players, there's "concealable" and "concealed". The difference being something that is technically concealable that you hope no one notices, and something that is acutally concealed. If you don't care about concealment, you could probably rig something up.

You can hide a full sized shotgun in your pants. It's not exactly well hidden it you tryto move, but it's there.

There is a reason why the only place you see armslides are in bad movies with riverboat gamblers. Which is, in a not unrelated point, an extinct profession.

Actually, it is correct. A magazine is simply a place where ammunition is stored prior to use. A cylinder certainly qualifies as such. So does your pants pocket. Each place in which a round is stored in a revolver just happens to work as a chamber as well. So yes, a revolver does have a magazine.

Very funny. And it's monthly or weekly periodical. Which is ALSO not the usage involved.

And Ray's just trying to be funny with semantics, I suppose, because his given interpretation of "magazine" is loose at best. The closest his take is to being correct would be that described by definition 4 below, which would be pushing it. Yes, you can quickly swap out cylinders in some revolvers, but I suspect that speed loaders are far more common.

"Magazine" in its most common weapons-related usage is typically used to mean "box magazine", the type of mag you have in a automatic pistol, an assault rifle, etc. Militarily, it's second main usage is definition 2, and mostly used by the Navy (the Army for example uses "ammunition(s) depot").

Therefore, in regular, unequivocal language and usage, revolvers have cylinders, not magazines.

As far as a pocketful of shells...don't make me rally around the family.

mag‧a‧zine  /ˌmægəˈzin, ˈmægəˌzin/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mag-uh-zeen, mag-uh-zeen] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a publication that is issued periodically, usually bound in a paper cover, and typically contains essays, stories, poems, etc., by many writers, and often photographs and drawings, frequently specializing in a particular subject or area, as hobbies, news, or sports.
2. a room or place for keeping gunpowder and other explosives, as in a fort or on a warship.
3. a building or place for keeping military stores, as arms, ammunition, or provisions.
4. a metal receptacle for a number of cartridges, inserted into certain types of automatic weapons and when empty removed and replaced by a full receptacle in order to continue firing.
5. Also called magazine show. Radio and Television.
a. Also called newsmagazine. a regularly scheduled news program consisting of several short segments in which various subjects of current interest are examined, usually in greater detail than on a regular newscast.
b. a program with a varied format that combines interviews, commentary, entertainment, etc.
6. magazine section.
7. Photography. cartridge (def. 4).
8. a supply chamber, as in a stove.
9. a storehouse; warehouse.
10. a collection of war munitions.

Are you kidding??!! It's always a good idea. Hell, I'd give you bullet-time free actions to do it cuz itz teh sex.

his definition isn't loose at all. the word "magazine" can refer to anything from an internal magazine to a clip (detachable box magazine) to a building used to store ammunition. outside of SR game terminology, "magazine" is a general concept that requires descriptors to narrow.

re: Warhawks and arm slides, i think simply requiring (or evn just assuming) wide sleeves/cuffs would work fine. the real problem with hiding a firearm on your forearm isn't the length, it's the thickness (the axis that cross your thumb and forefinger, when you're holding a gun) and the height (pinky to forefinger) of the weapon. most non-compact pistols i've seen are too big to realistically use an armslide with... so using a Warhawk doesn't really make things worse.

Bah. Desperado has proven you can indeed hide handguns the size of Desert Eagles using arm slides, without any visible bulge. And be able to whip them out even if you have narrow sleeves.


=)


-karma

Malkovich?

It could be that, or it could be that prior to this conversation, you and a few others posting here have understood an incomplete definition of the word "magazine", as it relates to ammunition. Shadowrun has a tendency to inspire that.

This should read as follows: "In regular, unequivocal language and usage, revolvers have a type of magazine that we refer to as a 'cylinder'."

We refer to them as "cylinders" as opposed to "magazines" not only because of their basic shape, but because a cylinder performs an additional function beyond simply storing ammunition (again, each storage space is also used as a chamber with the ammunition being fired directly from it). The fact that it stores ammunition prior to use makes the cylinder a type of magazine. The fact that the ammunition is fired directly from a chamber within the cylinder makes it necessary to refer to it as something other than just a "magazine".

Also, I happen to be discussing the "technically correct" meaning of the term, not the "regular, unequivocal language and usage" of the term, which is often technically incorrect.

So long as you understand that a "pocket full of shells" can technically and quite correctly be called a "magazine", I suppose there's no reason for it.

Obviously an incomplete and misleading definition written by a person who is not technically aware. A) A magazine is not required to be made of metal, B) magazines are found on manually-operated firearms as well, C) magazines are not required to be detachable. This definition is obviously meant to refer to a specific type of magazine, the "detachable box magazine", which is often and incorrectly referred to as a "clip" in English vernacular, as Aus previously noted.

I shall do no such thing. Tis a silly notion. I wouldn't walk up to someone and say "I have a magazine". They would have no idea what I was talking about. On the other hand, "I have a pocket of 9mm bullets" will be easily understood, even if bullet is somewhat subsidiary to cartridge, semantically.

Clarity.

And I would say that we're not discussing clarity from a wholly technical standpoint, because your audience includes non-technical users. So yes, we are talking about common usage here, or at least we should be.

So yes, in conclusion, have fun arguing backwards.

But that's not at all like how this discussion got started. The original comment was as if a person stated that the Sopwith Camel is not a vehicle.

Although the description is faulty, as Raygun pointed out above, detachable box magazines are exactly what the 4th definition is referring to. The implication is that the word "magazine" does not in common usage refer to any other kind of small arm feed device but detachable box magazines. Which is not true, for a given value of common usage.

I have no recollection of battering down poor unsuspecting newbies with less than perfect understanding of how firearms function, but I am truly sorry if I have done such a thing.

I have no idea where you get the impression we're arguing something like that. As far as I can tell, the whole point is that you should use clear terms to make sure everybody understands what you mean. I believe what Raygun was getting at is that it is not optimal to use a word (motorized vehicle, sport, magazine) to refer only to a subcategory (cars, track & field, detachable box magazine), since eventually that will get you into trouble ("Sopwith Camel is not a motorized vehicle", "Ice hockey is not a sport", "Revolvers don't have magazines").

Meanings of words shifting over time is natural and not a problem in itself -- and I'd be damn glad if media started calling detachable box magazines "magazines" instead of "clips" -- but it is problematic when that results in a complete break-up between the "common usage" English and "technically correct" English.

To a similar extent that "wheels" is subsidiary to "car". Which might be an even better comparison than I initially thought...

Your statement "technically [revolvers] don't have magazines", is, as a matter of fact, technically incorrect. Just making sure you and anyone else who looks at this thread are aware of it. Didn't say that we don't normally call the magazine of a revolver a cylinder. We most certainly do. It just doesn't have much to do with the point I was trying to make.

Of course it does. It helps the average person understand the term correctly. A magazine is a place where ammunition is stored prior to use. As such, anything attached to or part of a firearm that is used to store ammunition is a magazine. Including a revolver cylinder. See? Just trying to be technically correct here.

And if you continue to make statements like this, I will continue to correct them. Technically speaking, a revolver does in fact have a magazine. We tend to call it a "cylinder" in English. Other languages differ. For example, in German, they tend to call it a "magazine" because technically, that's exactly what it is.

It clearly helps you understand that a Sopwith Camel is not an animal, does it not? At any rate, this is a false analogy. The comment I corrected wasn't analogous to "what is a Sopwith Camel?" it was analogous to "the Sopwith Camel doesn't have an engine." Which is false. It doesn't have a jet engine, but it most certainly does have an engine.

I am arguing no such thing. I am telling you, and everyone else who reads this thread, that the cylinder of a revolver is, technically speaking, a magazine. I'm not asking you to call it anything else. Call it a cylinder. I do. I was simply attempting to make anyone who reads this thread aware that a revolver does, as a matter of pure technical fact, have a magazine, and that your statement otherwise was, as a matter of pure technical fact, 100% false.

And we come to yet another example of your lack of attention to detail...

Notice the lack of the word "should" in place of "can". I would have thought that was clear enough.

Hmm. I would have thought that having made the statement "technically [revolvers] don't have magazines" you would have picked up on the fact that I was commenting on just how technically correct the statement was.

So, repeating for the non-technical users: eidolon was wrong to say that a revolver doesn't technically have a magazine. Technically, it does. We just call it a "cylinder".

Good?

Here is the definition of a magazine from the NRAs website

MAGAZINE
A spring-loaded container for cartridges that may be an integral part of the gun`s mechanism or may be detachable. Detachable magazines for the same gun may be offered by the gun`s manufacturer or other manufacturers with various capacities. A gun with a five-shot detachable magazine, for instance, may be fitted with a magazine holding 10, 20, or 50 or more rounds. Tube or tubular magazines run through the stock or under the barrel with the cartridges lying horizontally.



Another thing to take into consideration as well is that a magazine IS NOT part of the action. An action is the area in which the bullet is fired. In rifles, shotguns and pistols its a chamber in the barrel closed by a bolt, in a revolver it is the cylinder, well kind of. the cylinder is not a magazine, that is like saying the chamber in a singleshot, side by side, or over/under are magazines.

A simple failure to include (along with several other magazine types) and overall not a very accurate definition. Fact: not all magazines are spring loaded. Case in point: Gatling gun. Top loaded magazine, gravity fed. There are others.

Again: Any place in which ammunition is stored prior to use is a magazine. Period. There isn't any way around it. Look in every single respectable english dictionary on the planet and I'd say there's about a 99% chance that it's the one definition that will be in every single one of them. As a revolver cylinder performs that task without question, it qualifies.

As in "a magazine CANNOT BE part of the action"? Who told you that?

Incorrect. The area in which the bullet is fired is called the "chamber". The action is the area of the firearm that feeds ammunition from storage and into line with the barrel bore, ready for firing. Here's the NRA's definition:

It is absolutely nothing of the sort. Single shots, side-by-sides, and over unders are not repeating weapons. They either do not store cartridges ready for use within the weapon or they have a second barrel with an integral chamber that's already loaded. They do not have magazines.

its obvious that we've strayed from the realm of conversation, because now all we are arguing is symantics.

I said IS NOT not CANNOT, and the answer to your question is personal expirience. I have handled firearms for the last 10 years, and I consider myself an apt gunsmith too boot.

On a technicality your right, but only because this is taken out of context of what I was originally getting to. A Chamber you are correct is where the round is fired, but a chamber is part of the whole action.

So because these guns only have chambers, they can't have magazines is this right? Well if that is indeed the case the same applies to a revolver, because each chamber in the cylinder is just that a chamber.

Like I had said you and I are argueing symantics and rhetoric, so I am done.

Tends to happen when you get into arguing about definitions.

So a cylinder IS NOT a magazine because you say so? Fair enough. I think I've provided plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Cool. So do I.

I apologize. I thought you meant it as a general statement. In the context of a revolver, the chambers, as part of the cylinder, are an integral part of the action. Since multiple cartridges are stored out of firing position and the action rotates them into position, the cylinder functions as a magazine as well.

No. Because each chamber is integral with a barrel, the cartridge doesn't have to be moved in order to fire it. Hence, no magazine.

Okay.