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Gorath
QUOTE (BBB @ p.110)
Defaulting

Defaulting allows a character to still make the test using only the linked attribute
in their dice pool, but with a dice pool modifier of 1.



QUOTE (BBB @ p.230)
Matrix Attacks

To attack another icon, make an Opposed Test. Hackers attack
using Cybercombat skill + attack program rating.


Compare the hacker adept with Aptitude(Hacking), Specialization (Exploit), Hacking 7, Improved Ability(Hacking) 3 and a Exploit program with rating 6. He could throw 18 dice for Hacking/Exploit, 16 dice for Hacking and possibly much less dice for Computer, Electronic Warfare, Cyber Combat.

Now assume a character with Logic 10. He can default to any Logic related skill with 9 dice. That would give him 15 dice for any test with a skill/program. If he can't use a program to assist him in skills like Hardware/Software he can use only 9 dice.

Cost for starting Logic 9:

Exceptional Attribute(Logic): 20
increases to Logic 7: 10+10+10+10+10+25=75
Cerebral Booster 2: 20000 nuyen.gif = 4
------------------------------------------------
99 BP
------------------------------------------------


Cost for hacker adept:

Adept: 5
Aptitude(Hacking): 10
Hacking 7: 32
Cyber Combat 4:16
Electronic Warfare 4: 16
Electronics Group 4 : 40
Specialization(Hacking): 2
------------------------------------------------
121 BP
------------------------------------------------


eek.gif Discuss! eek.gif
GrinderTheTroll
You can make min/max characters with almost any archtype in SR4. This is no different that any other min/max sammy, mage, etc.

Very boring character IMO.
Lagomorph
I don't have my book in front of me, but many skills can't be defaulted on, hacking may be one of them.

Since matrix tests use only skill and program, you can't really say that you can apply the defaulting ability since the defaulting mechanic is designed for tests that use the standardized Stat+Skill roll. If anthing, you'd probably only be able to default to (program - 1) since the program effectively replaces your attribute.

Besides that, you've spent 25% of your characters points on just one stat, if you're going to do that, you may as well do it to agility so you can shoot every one in the face with guns where you are guaranteed to be able to default.
Mal-2
QUOTE (Gorath)
Now assume a character with Logic 10. He can default to any Logic related skill with 9 dice.

I don't think you should be able to use (Logic - 1) + Program instead of Skill + Program, since you normally don't roll Logic at all in a cybercombat attack. Instead, I would make the hacker roll Attack Program - 1, which mirrors the way defaulting any other skill would work.

Of course, the whole Skill + Program Rating test is so much different from every other skill test in SR4, that I don't have any clear idea of how it's supposed to work.
lorechaser
1. Logic 10 is an inconceivably brillant person. Stephen Hawking is probably right around 8 or 9. Logic 10 is the highest possible intelligence someone can have, with maxed increase, and exceptional attribute. So just tossing around "Someone with logic 10" is kinda cheapening it. I realize with future tech, it's more acheivable, but damn.

2. It's generally accepted that the new matrix rules are weird. The fact that they don't use the general paradigm means that you can't be sure you can simply default.

Beyond that, you can't default on: Cybertech, electronic warfare, hardware, software.

So you can hack, but you can't do any of the associated things.

3. That's a min/maxed character. Granted, it's easy to min/max in SR. But still, you're spending 1/4 your points on a single attribute, and it's pumped as high as it can possibly go. You're going to be a bit odd.

4. Why didn't the hacker adept pick up Improved Skill (Hacking) 4 with his magic point? He could do that, drop the 14 points he used to get to hacking 7, wallah, you're now at an 8 point difference. The hacker now has 21 dice to throw there, vs Mr. Brilliant's 15. Assuming you want a straighter comparison, Mr. Brilliant picks up Electronics 1, so he rolls 10 dice on all the other skills, and he's spent 2 *more* points.
OneTrikPony
hacker adept?

Am I just behind the times and now awakend characters can be super hackers as adepts... apparently by RAW they can (I feel like someone just slaped me with a rotten cod).

I hate the idea that an Adept can use magic to improve technical skills but since they can don't you need to count 20 bp in the cost for magic 2 so he can spend them on 3 points of Improved ability (hacking)? (god I feel so dirty just talking about the idea)

If a real hacker has Logic 10 he deserves to be badassed enough to do the matrix equivelant shoving a boot so far up the hacker adept's butt that he can stomp on his brain from the inside.

Is there any way to make a real, jacked in, hacker that can beat an adept at roughly the same cost as a trode net wizboy poser?
Cold-Dragon
QUOTE (OneTrikPony)
hacker adept?

Am I just behind the times and now awakend characters can be super hackers as adepts... apparently by RAW they can (I feel like someone just slaped me with a rotten cod).

I hate the idea that an Adept can use magic to improve technical skills but since they can don't you need to count 20 bp in the cost for magic 2 so he can spend them on 3 points of Improved ability (hacking)? (god I feel so dirty just talking about the idea)

If a real hacker has Logic 10 he deserves to be badassed enough to do the matrix equivelant shoving a boot so far up the hacker adept's butt that he can stomp on his brain from the inside.

Is there any way to make a real, jacked in, hacker that can beat an adept at roughly the same cost as a trode net wizboy poser?

Hacker Adept:
An awakened character who has dedicated his skills to the art of hacking. Since you don't 'need' to use a datajack, an adept can actually play as a hacker via the commlink without draining magic. You use skill boost hacking and/or computer and whatever else, which are only .25 per point since they're not combat skills (except for cybercombat).

Basically, they're vaguely like technomancers in that they can break the border on one side of the numbers, and they probably cost less to do that too. nyahnyah.gif

Yeah, it's sorta cheezy, but not improbable.

As per hating them, tough cookies, we don't live by your system. Fight the power! biggrin.gif
two points of magic costs an adept 15 points (5 for being an adept, 10 for the 2nd point). If you were to boost cybercombat to 9/10, you're covering 12/16 points at you couldn't spend at chargen under normal circumstances with only 15 points. There's the aptitude cost if you're going to 10, of course.

Now, if you do computer/hacking, you could do both by 4 or 5 points, not spending 28/36 points compared to that 15 in magic. Since you could only use aptitude to one anyways, you would not spend 32 points, something pretty easily to trade versus 15 + aptitude (forget how much it is, but even if it's over by a few points, that's still 'worth' it.)

And of course, if you only do 28 to boost both to 9, it doesn't cost you that aptitude, which makes it a bargain for that 15 points you spent in the first place.

Of course, you also have to make sure you spend 20 points on computer and hacking in skills to put them both at 5, but you are probably willing to spend that amount in the first place, so it doesn't matter in the calculation other than for tallying comparison.

55 points to become the master of the technological stuff...yikes.

So can you kick a hacker adepts but cheaply? Heck no!
But they still have to rely on a commlink, so if you fry that, their skills are rather useless till they get a new one. wink.gif At least the technomancer can manipulate things, even if he doesn't have a commlink to store stolen stuff from or whatever.

*tries to think of alternative means of trumping the hacker adept* I suppose one way of at least weakening such an adept is with that static spell thingy from SM that acts like background count. At magic 2, you don't need much to reduce them to expert level, and other mages are likely to still have some magic left despite.
Fortune
QUOTE (OneTrikPony)
Is there any way to make a real, jacked in, hacker that can beat an adept at roughly the same cost as a trode net wizboy poser?

Why do you assume that an Adept would be limited to 'trodes?
OneTrikPony
just an assumption based on playing SR3, no player of a magic user ever spent a dime on cyber because that point of essence was expencive and initiation cost so much.

I suppose that I'm going to have to update my attitude to reflect how (realatively) inexpencive magic is in this rule set. More players are going to choose some form of magic character = magic becomes more common in the setting.

Sigh, magic was a big part of the reason i stoped playing SR3. I love the well developed and evolving setting. I hate the way magic dominates the play due to the indescretion of ex-munchkin developers.

Back on topic:

The point is that it's cheeper to build a Hacker who defaults for matrix tests because all of the skills in the Cracking group and Electronics group are based on the Logic attribute.

how is the Playability of this proposed Defaulting character?

Has anyone assessed the faults of the Defaulter outside the realm of the matrix?
Garrowolf
I think that if you were that Logical you would no better then to try and do things you weren't trained to do.
Ryu
Whose quote was "SR4 hackers are like sript kiddies on steroids"? It was in someones sig.

If you allow defaulting for two skills of the cracking group, your hacker builds will start to look odd. Just limit defaulting to situations where the test is attribute+skill.
Blade
I think we'll need to wait for the FAQ for the official answer about defaulting in the Matrix.

Sure SR4 hackers can look like script kiddies. The fact is that, you can't think fast enough in 3 seconds to do what a program does. But nothing forbids your GM to ask you to roll Logic+Hacking when confronted to a matrix trap or something like that.

How do you protect yourself against script kiddies nowadays ? You tweak your protections a little so that the common attack script don't work anymore and you use some tricks the script kiddies will fall for. Label a file "Top Secret Project.doc" with a big nice worm inside and you'll get him. The difference between the good hacker and the script kiddie, is that the hacker doesn't only know how to use programs, he knows how to think.

GM : The node looks like a corridor, your Analyze program notices an hidden door behind a panel on the wall.
Script Kiddie : I get inside !
Hacker : I'll take a closer look.
GM : Both of you, roll Logic+Hacking, -2 to you Script Kiddie (for being less cautious)
Script Kiddie : 1 hit
Hacker : 4 hits
GM : Hacker, you know it's a common trap, a one way door to a trapped node.
Script Kiddie : I don't get inside !
GM : Too late, you just rushed inside a dark room. As you enter, the door dissolves behind you and you start to notice red eyes glowing around you.
Konsaki
Thats actually a pretty good idea, Blade. The only problem is that while it would make matrix actions more reallistic and fun for the hacker, the meatbody people might get a little bored with the longer wait time.
Blade
They won't be much more bothered than the unawakened during a journey in astral plane or than the streetsamurai when the face talks with his contacts.

And if you don't want the group to wait, just resolve the matrix action with a quick Logic+hacking test wink.gif .

Anyway, if you bother playing the whole matrix run, don't do half the job : describe the node with details, add flavour to the action, make it more than just a successions of rolls. If you do it right, you might start to see the other player paying attention to the matrix run just like they'd pay attention to a hot-pursuit between the rigger and the Lone Star.
lorechaser
QUOTE (OneTrikPony)
The point is that it's cheeper to build a Hacker who defaults for matrix tests because all of the skills in the Cracking group and Electronics group are based on the Logic attribute.

how is the Playability of this proposed Defaulting character?

Has anyone assessed the faults of the Defaulter outside the realm of the matrix?


Cracking (Logic)
Cybercombat
Electronic Warfare
Hacking

Electronics (Logic)
Computer
Data Search
Hardware
Software


The defaulter can straight hack and combat at a level equal to an average hacker, and 3-8 dice below a hacker adept. The defaulter cannot perform Electronic Warfare, so is pretty much useless on opposed tests outside the Matrix. The defaulter can run programs on a computer about as well as a hacker adept (within 1-2 dice), but is completely useless when it comes to upgrading hardware or software, or physically attacking a machine.

The defaulter is far less rounded than the hacker. if you're looking at straight Matrix runs, the defaulter will be acceptably close to the hacker adept. Beyond that, the defaulter suffers. The hacker adept also has, imho, far more potential to expand beyond being just a hacker.

The defaulter has spent 75 of 200 points on logic. That leaves 125 points to boost other stats (120 really).

The Hacker adept has spent, say, 30-40 points on logic. That leaves 160-170 points for other stats, and then he must buy magic. But the 200 point cap is a fairly important one for runners.

The defaulter can also use First Aid, Armorer, and Demolitions reasonably well defaulting to 9 dice. So that's a small support bonus.

Ryu
The defaulter just needs some bioware instead of extreme logic to get even with the standard hacker. And less karma to improve.

Buying three skills instead of two groups up to level four leaves enough money-bp for that.
lorechaser
QUOTE (Ryu @ Oct 26 2006, 02:26 PM)
The defaulter just needs some bioware instead of extreme logic to get even with the standard hacker. And less karma to improve.

Buying three skills instead of two groups up to level four leaves enough money-bp for that.

Very true on the bioware. Mr. Brilliant is equal enough to the average hacker even with a 5 logic and ware. It's the elite that gets iffy.

And Mr. Brilliant doesn't actually buy any skills - that's the point. wink.gif He's simply pumping his logic and defaulting on all logic tests.
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