Stick-N-Shock unfortunately falls short of the above description, as SNS 'sticks' to the target, then discharges multiple charges into the target, from the exterior, causing stun damage.

This ammunition is a single loaded capacitor that discharges itself while it's in the process of producing a sucking-chest wound. I imagine to make it practical, the round would need to be 'charged' by an electromagnetic field that induces capacitance into the round as it rifles through the barrel.

I doubt it'd even begin to compare in power requirements to the amount of power it takes to power one of those fancy laser weapons from CC.

Edit: To address multiple points.

You should put "sometimes" and "maybe" in a few key places in that sentence. One-shot stops are the exception in modern combat, not the norm.

People who get hit with "Large bore rifle" rounds are the exception. .375 H& H Magnum Barnes X-bullets, for example, are typically pretty darn effective on large angry bears. I'd suspect they would do a number on most people.

I don't necessarily agree with that point. None the less, you use the word 'Most Likely' which is a far cry from 'definitely'. Therefore, you concede that it is a possibility.

Moving on: A highly penetrative round would not need to inflict damage by the diameter of the wound inflicted. Instead, it would be a matter of simply penetrating the tissue of the target, and discharging lethal voltage throughout his/her interior organs (Re: Heart).

Infact, it almost sounds humane: No longer do battle-field soldiers die long, lingering deaths - It's a pinch, a deadly discharge, and a few moments of twitching on the ground.

I loves me some theoretical munitions. Been excited about ram accelerators/ scram cannons recently.

So this theoretical capacitance bullet- I imagine it would have to be charged prior to firing, then release that charge on impact. The plates would be separated, likely by a solid non conductive material, then joined as a circuit by body tissue after impact- creating some lovely resistance in vital organs. So the inside of your barrel would be made of or coated with some relatively non-conducting material.

Cool. You'd have to pull a sixth-world dielectric out of your ass that could hold a field density enough to do any damage, though. I'd bet the majority of dielectric materials in use now can't hold enough charge in something the size of a bullet or shell to do any more damage than the kinetic energy from the impact.

doing the smart thing and staying far far away...

Right. I'd suspect they would for most people, too. Were I to write a sentence about their effectiveness in combat, then, I'd use words like "sometimes" and "maybe," in fact. But short of a cruise missile or similar, I'm certainly never going to say "will" when it comes to a bad guy falling down after being shot. Ask a combat vet about it some time. Or, heck, just read the right sort of book (Korea, in particular, springs to mind for lots of examples).

I'm not going to ever assume the other guy's gonna fall down right away, no matter what I'm shooting, if (knock on wood that it never happens) I ever end up having to use a firearm to defend myself. To me, as such, a statement like...

... is misinforming, and almost dangerous.

Still an assumption. Maybe you're the Highlander.

he died. he just didn't *stay* dead.

Certainly shooting your target with several rounds always increases the probability that the threat your target presents will be negated. By that logic:

1) Hitting the Target = Chance of eliminating Target
2) Hitting the Target Multiple Times = Increased Chance of eliminating Target

While you've isolated that multiple instances of being shot increases the probability that the target is eliminated, you have not proven that large bore rounds are more effective at eliminating an opponent than rounds that discharge lethal current into the target.

In terms of production, these rounds would probably be more expensive than standard rounds. If the rounds were inert until fired, however, storage and transportation would be negligible.

I've been taught that the purpose of a bullet on a battlefield is to eliminate the threat of the enemy. In an ideal situation, this is done in three ways. First, the combatant that is on the receiving end of a bullet wound is incapacitated. Second, the combatant that is assigned to attending to the target is taken away from engaging their enemies. Third, another combatant must now split their attention to the fronts that the other two combatants previously attended to.

In regards to this, putting big holes in targets is definitely a reliable, and historically effective means of accomplishing these three afforementioned goals. However, that does not mean that this is the only way of accomplishing this, or that larger wounds always equates a more effective round.

For instance: Large wounds do not always equal an incapacitated target. A wounded target is not always attended to by other combatants. And the front of engaged combatants may at times be narrow enough in scope that the loss of manpower does not ensure a loss in significant effectiveness.

All of that aside however. The concept behind this round would be that as it is fired, it is charged. After it penetrates flesh, it releases deadly current into the target. The goals would be as follows:

1) Negates the effectiveness of Body Armor, as the damage to a target is delivered by a means other than the size of wound cavity.
2) The liklihood of a combatant returning to contribute to a firefight is significantly reduced.
3) Because the round is designed to be fired -through- targets, rather than -into- targets, the chances of collateral damage to additional combatants is increased.

Now as was mentioned previously, an uber 6th world dielectric would be required to store the charge. If the rifle barrel were able to induce voltage into the round, as it was spinning through, I assume the round would also require a small inductor.

This would probably require the sort of battery pack that's included with SR Laser Weapons, though it's likely that said pack would effectively charge a significantly higher degree of rounds than a traditional energy-based weapon would.

Anyone have any suggested stats for a weapon that would fire these sort of rounds? I was thinking something along the lines of:

What is it with the Internet and people getting really daft ideas about the burden of proof?

It's your wacky idea, Steak. You're the one who has to show *us* that it might possibly work, it's not our job to show you that it *can't* possibly work. We just have to show that it's overwhelmingly unlikely, which has been done, so the ball's in your court. Shock us.

My two cents? A bullet... That give people heart attacks. That's absurd. You're going through all that trouble to put a big bit of metal in someone, and the idea is to put a battery in it?

If we assume the existence of an insane electrically discharging bullet, why not just assume the existence of a bullet capable of exploding with a half-meter blast radius? It's a confirmed incap if you hit them anywhere, and it's much easier to stomach the idea* that a mini-grenade launcher could be shrunk down to rifle size (and increased in muzzle velocity, penetrating power, round stability, etc, etc) than that rifle round could have a defibrillator in it.

* Disclaimer: For laymen, at least. I'm sure that explosives scientists would choke on the idea, but we're not even listening to the sensibility of novices in this discussion, there's no need to get experts involved.

Nah. A Capacitor stores the charge, which is charged as the round is fired, then completely discharges after entering the target. I don't think a battery would work nearly as effectively.

if i'd claimed that, i might have a problem. my claim is that multiple shots with standard rounds, possibly in combination with larger-caliber rounds, would perform the same function--that is to say, making sure your target goes down--as electric bullets.

it's just... wasteful, i guess. i mean, a bullet punches holes in people. nine times out of ten, punching a hole in someone is enough to put them down. you're better off responding to that tenth time with a follow-up shot (or two, or ten).

not possible. you're talking about an electrical charge--your background should tell you there's no way to make that inert; it's always going to want to discharge, and the only way you can keep that from happening is to try to make sure there's no conductive path between the capacitor and the exterior of the bullet. the problem is, there has to be some sort of mechanism that creates a conductive path, and such a mechanism is going to be prone to mechanical defect.

Much obliged. Saves me some precious text characters.

I don't think you should have them in your hand. Preferably a shielded clip of some sort.

Neat!

None taken. So...

...Got some proposed Stats for that?

Hah! I've been playing Destroy All Humans 2 for the past week straight and the main character's main weapon is an idealized SciFi version of this kinda thing. Cool.

I think the whole capacitance bullet would be effective if the theoretical dielectric and the plates needed to go with it were discovered some other way, perhaps as a product of some other high-grade technology, or the charge was separated and stored using nanotech. Pretty much any technique that could be used to separate a large amount of charge in a small space would work.

Our cells use complex proteins to take advantage of some simple physics laws to generate quite a bit of charge. It would the require a Sixth World Protein Design Lab, but a system could be designed that is a stripped down and modified version of the ion transport systems living creatures, mostly Eurkaryotes, use fairly ubiquitously. We use ion transport systems in our Mitochondria and nerve cells, and a few others places that don't come to mind right now, to generate a voltage and store electric energy. It's not really electric, but at that level it's all the same drek, anyway.

Anyway, capacitance, and hence the charge separated and potential voltage generated, is reliant on 1) the proximity of the components that are passing and holding the charge, i.e., the closer and larger the plates, the more charge can be separated and 2) the ability of the dielectric to keep the electrons on one plate and off the other. Biology is great at surface area problems like number one there, so a Mitochondrion is like two capacitor plates all rolled up to save space. Now, number two is a little tougher for a cell because cell membrane make crappy dielectrics, but nanotech could make a better one.

So there could be a gel inside the bullet that stores an absurd amount of charge- we're making up this dielectric, so it might was well be really good. The gel in the bullets would organized in a honeycomb cell structure or something, to be charged before loading by getting access to a source of electrons in water, then the Street Sammy take the charged portion with him.

Such technology would have a wide variety of applications, but could be used to create a sealed bullet with a huge amount of charge separated and ready to flow. Upon impact, the honeycomb structure ruptures along with the outer (and very non-conductive) casing of the bullet. And zap.

...and give it a hellacious availability, say at least 25 - 30. This would definitely fall in the realm of experimental milspec uber tech.

Also if the PC's even have a remote chance to get it, you can bet my NPCs will have it too.

...Unless, like, the science-fiction part of the game kicked in again and due to the awesome high-tech construction of the round, that was a non-issue.

So.

Could this wreak havoc on electronic devices, too?

Excellent!

Our early attempts at a capacitance round went through several preparations. Preparations A through G were a complete failure. But now, ladies and gentlemen, we finally have a working round. A round which we will call...

Yeah. This whole post is against my better judgement, but...

I like the idea. Particularly in tactical police and military CQB environments, I think something like this would prove very useful. A bullet that delivers an electric charge significant enough to disrupt the central nervous system for the effect of inducing an instantaneous incapacitation for at least a period long enough to restrain a combatant would be incredibly useful. Conventional bullets have a less-than-stellar track record at producing the same effect unless the CNS is affected directly by the bullet passing through it. This takes some pretty precise marksmanship, even at close range, and more often than not causes the combatant to be killed in the process, which is pretty much never ideal. With a bullet like the one that's being discussed here, it wouldn't matter so much where the impact occurs, so long as it causes the electrical discharge within the target, the CNS is more likely to be affected and an instant incapacitation would be more likely to occur. The combatant may still suffer a fatal wound, but the odds of him being removed from the fight immediately by a non-lethal hit are greatly improved. So the "why" part makes plenty of sense to me...

It's the "how" part that sucks. You pretty much have go with the Shadowrun technology catch-all "it werks becuz of NANITES!!!" in order to come up with an even half-way believable explanation. That tends to annoy the shit out of me because nanites are used to explain every improbable technology in Shadowrun.

One problem I can forsee beyond what has already been discussed is that bullets are made out of heavy, dense metals for several reasons. Assuming that the "nanite honeycomb dielectric structure" would stay intact until the bullet's flight terminates, the bullet's lack of mass and density (due to the necessarily way-out-there "conductive gel") is going to cause significant problems in terms of the bullet's flight and penetration. Less penetration may actually prove beneficial given the purpose (limiting kinetic lethality while causing an electical incapacitation), but it's going to have a lot of problems when body armor is part of the picture. So in terms of Shadowrun, if you choose to accept Glayvin34's pseudo-scientific explanation, you need to give the bullet some negative effects, like reduced AP and range.

Not really. My area of expertise is pretty much limited to high-tech rock throwing.

uhhh... isn't his entire concept about bullets that kill you better by electrocuting you from the inside? ie, the exact opposite purpose from what the bullets you're suggesting do... (which, imo, can be adequately represented using stick'n'shock rounds)

Yes, that appears to have been his idea. Which differs a bit from mine.

Not the exact opposite. His idea was to make a bullet that, in addition to penetrating and crushing tissue and creating a wound kinetically, provides an electrical discharge powerful enough to kill a person in its own right.

My idea was to make a bullet that, in addition to penetrating and crushing tissue and creating a wound kinetically, provides an electrical discharge powerful enough to cause a person to lose motor control momentarily. One thing I forgot to mention is that the energy source would have to be wholly contained within the bullet and the ammunition would have to be capable of being stored safely for long periods of time without losing charge.

I think both ideas are extremely improbable in any sense even apporoaching reality.

Except that the objective is not to stick to the target and discharge, but actually penetrate the target, then discharge. See, if the target is wearing a leather jacket or other heavy clothing, stick n' shock = useless. Not so with this stuff.

Also, I don't play SR4 and am not entirely familiar with it. When "stick'n shock" was mentioned, I envisioned the "sticky shocker" from Splinter Cell: a 40mm non-lethal munition that differs pretty significantly from the wording in SR4, which makes it sound as if any normal firearm can use that stick'n shock ammunition.

Which is a bummer, because I'd love to see the weapons on your site include SR4 stats.