Full Version: New Negative quality
I like the idea of having combat paralysis for some characters, but I have one problem with it. That is it applies to all combat. I talked to my players and we discussed having a variant of it apply only on the physical plane. This way you could have your typical computer geek with the negative quality and he wouldn't be affected in the matrix, or your academic mage who wouldn't be affected in astral space, or even a rigger who wouldn't be affected when jacked in to a vehicle. I would propose cutting the value in half as to -10 BP. This way for characters whose activities extend beyond their meat-bodies, their other activities would not be affected. What are your thoughts?
sound good. I don't think 10 points is cutting back too far. I think combat paralysis gives too many points for its effect as is.
Seems fair to me.
Sounds good to me too.
I like it.
One question. I'm a mage and I want discounted combat paralysis so that I'm a badass on the astral plane but a coward on the physical. Then I pick up a commlink and run into some IC. Do I freeze?
Basically, does this apply to all but one situation, or only one situation?
One question. I'm a mage and I want discounted combat paralysis so that I'm a badass on the astral plane but a coward on the physical. Then I pick up a commlink and run into some IC. Do I freeze?
Basically, does this apply to all but one situation, or only one situation?
I'd say it would apply only to the physical plane. Maybe allow a 5 point version that applies to astral or cybercombat, but then you get in to "What's a hacker" and "What's a cybercombatant?"
You know everyone's gonna see action in meatspace.
You know everyone's gonna see action in meatspace.
My intent would be to only affect the meat-body allowing characters in their comfort zone to not be affected. I honestly didn't consider characters with multiple comfort zones. I would say it would only exempt the character from one area (astral, matrix, or rigging) This way a computer geek would piss himself in real life if a gun was pointed in his face, but when facing a similar challenge in the matrix he could be Jackie Chan. I think a mage on the matrix would be out of their comfort zone and still be affected.
I would say that the Combat Paralysis should apply in any situation other than the one in which the character specifically chooses to exclude. In the above Mage example, I would rule that while he is fine in the Astral, everywhere else he tends to freeze up, including in cyberspace.
Could a Mundane take this Quality and apply the exception to the Physical (non-Matrix) plane?
Could a Mage choose to use this Quality to act normally on the Physical Plane, but freeze up Astrally (and in the Matrix)?
Could a Mage choose to use this Quality to act normally on the Physical Plane, but freeze up Astrally (and in the Matrix)?
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Could a Mundane take this Quality and apply the exception to the Physical (non-Matrix) plane? Could a Mage choose to use this Quality to act normally on the Physical Plane, but freeze up Astrally (and in the Matrix)? |
Simply put, characters are very likely to get involved in confrontations in their meat-body. 5 pt negative quality might be appropriate, but I would be VERY sceptical and certainly need to have GM's approval.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Could a Mundane take this Quality and apply the exception to the Physical (non-Matrix) plane? Could a Mage choose to use this Quality to act normally on the Physical Plane, but freeze up Astrally (and in the Matrix)? |
if you are choosing only one place to be combat paralysed, i would say drop the BP to 5 and obviously you must be able to access that 'plane'.
so if you are going to choose the astral plane to be vulnerable in, you must be able to access that regularly (ie, you can't be a mundane, you must be dual natured, or have access to astral projection or something like that. or, i suppose, if the entire game is played largely within the bounds of some astral shallows)
i'd be cautious about matrix paralysis though... i mean, someone could just load up on so many matrix flaws that you're either giving them free BP by not exploiting their flaws, or you're going to kill them because you are exploiting their flaws. neither one is particularly cool, imo.
The reasoning behind my question is that if you allow Hackers (who spend most of their confrontational time in the Matrix) to ignore the effects of the Combat Paralysis in their area of expertise, then the Gun Bunny (who has an equal opportunity to utilize the Matrix) should also have that option.
| QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 28 2006, 05:08 AM) |
| ... obviously you must be able to access that 'plane'. |
I was quite careful in choosing my examples.
I kinda disagree with dropping the BP cost though. Although sometimes exposed to real combat, Hackers do spend most of their combat-oriented time in the Matrix.
sure, i'm not saying don't allow matrix paralysis period. but really, even if the hacker can ignore the paralysis in his area of expertise, he's gonna get stuck in meat combat sooner or later. the sammy, on the other hand, can just make sure he's got no DNI/sim module running, and good luck getting him stuck in matrix combat.
furthermore, the problem i am talking about goes something like this:
bob the luddite has matrix paralysis (5 BP), uneducated (20 BP), scorched (5 BP since he's clearly not a hacker), and sensitive neural system (5 BP since once again, he's clearly not a hacker).
now then, in order to actually have scorched be a flaw, you're pretty much gonna have to screw him over horribly, because make no mistake, facing black IC will kill this guy. he has no clue what it is, no clue how to defend himself against it, and is extremely vulnerable to it. which means, either the scorched flaw never comes up (free BPs for all!) or you pretty much kill him, and there's nothing he can do to stop it.
merely an observation that it's important to keep an eye on these flaws, and make sure that someone doesn't load up too many of them in one place, because there flaw will either kill them or never come up (as another example, you could put someone with uneducated and gremlins 3). this isn't a comment about matrix paralysis in particular so much as it is about flaws that penalize specific activities, especially overlapping ones, in general.
furthermore, the problem i am talking about goes something like this:
bob the luddite has matrix paralysis (5 BP), uneducated (20 BP), scorched (5 BP since he's clearly not a hacker), and sensitive neural system (5 BP since once again, he's clearly not a hacker).
now then, in order to actually have scorched be a flaw, you're pretty much gonna have to screw him over horribly, because make no mistake, facing black IC will kill this guy. he has no clue what it is, no clue how to defend himself against it, and is extremely vulnerable to it. which means, either the scorched flaw never comes up (free BPs for all!) or you pretty much kill him, and there's nothing he can do to stop it.
merely an observation that it's important to keep an eye on these flaws, and make sure that someone doesn't load up too many of them in one place, because there flaw will either kill them or never come up (as another example, you could put someone with uneducated and gremlins 3). this isn't a comment about matrix paralysis in particular so much as it is about flaws that penalize specific activities, especially overlapping ones, in general.
I like the original idea best. the physical plane is the lowest common denominator, and other singular/multi plane versions get mucky.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| sure, i'm not saying don't allow matrix paralysis period. but really, even if the hacker can ignore the paralysis in his area of expertise, he's gonna get stuck in meat combat sooner or later. the sammy, on the other hand, can just make sure he's got no DNI/sim module running, and good luck getting him stuck in matrix combat. |
And that would be his choice, and a limiting factor on his character advancement.
I understand what you are saying. I am only playing 'devil's advocate', as it were, and asking questions that might pop up if this Quality was to be added to a game. I like the original concept as well, but I can easily design a Hacker that never sees the meat world just as easily as I can create a Sammy that doesn't touch the Matrix, and both of them would be quite viable characters.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
And that would be his choice, and a limiting factor on his character advancement. I understand what you are saying. I am only playing 'devil's advocate', as it were, and asking questions that might pop up if this Quality was to be added to a game. I like the original concept as well, but I can easily design a Hacker that never sees the meat world just as easily as I can create a Sammy that doesn't touch the Matrix, and both of them would be quite viable characters. |
perhaps, but in that case you would be creating a hacker who is completely useless for hacking systems that are wired and limited to the interior of a corp... which is going to be at least somewhat common, imo, given it's really the only way to remove a system from the possibility of being hacked from the matrix.
in comparison, a sammy with no sim module isn't gonna suffer a whole awful lot (since the sim module is only useful to replace the various 'link' hardware items or for hacking, which the sammy probably has the cyber versions for anything he needs in AR anyways and doesn't care about hacking). heck, a sammy with sim module, DNI, and no wireless connectivity isn't gonna suffer a whole awful lot even.
in comparison, a hacker who simply never will be able to get into the most important/secure systems is not gonna do you a whole lot of good... you're gonna need a hacker who *can* get into those systems, and at that point you may as well just use that second hacker as your main hacker.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| but I can easily design a Hacker that never sees the meat world just as easily as I can create a Sammy that doesn't touch the Matrix, and both of them would be quite viable characters. |
You can't design a hacker who never sees the meat world and have it still be "viable". That power only lies with your GM.
I've run into times where a building's security system couldn't be accessed from the outside. So the hacker had to physically enter the building with us.
Fair enough, but of course, he could just turn those kinds of jobs down.
The point is that a Hacker does not have to interact with the real world very much if he chooses not to. The times when he does appear in the meat do not always have to be filled with flying lead. If you are dividing up the Quality based on 'planes', then in my opinion they all should be given equal billing. I can see a case being made for the hardened Street Tough who can't help but freeze in terror at the first sign of trouble in the Computer world.
The alternative is giving yet another Quality useful only to Mages and/or Hackers.
As I have previously said, I am not necessarily campaigning for or against anything ... merely trying to ascertain the limits of the Quality (because players tend to try to stretch boundaries).
The point is that a Hacker does not have to interact with the real world very much if he chooses not to. The times when he does appear in the meat do not always have to be filled with flying lead. If you are dividing up the Quality based on 'planes', then in my opinion they all should be given equal billing. I can see a case being made for the hardened Street Tough who can't help but freeze in terror at the first sign of trouble in the Computer world.
The alternative is giving yet another Quality useful only to Mages and/or Hackers.
As I have previously said, I am not necessarily campaigning for or against anything ... merely trying to ascertain the limits of the Quality (because players tend to try to stretch boundaries).
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Fair enough, but of course, he could just turn those kinds of jobs down. The point is that a Hacker does not have to interact with the real world very much if he chooses not to. The times when he does appear in the meat do not always have to be filled with flying lead. If you are dividing up the Quality based on 'planes', then in my opinion they all should be given equal billing. I can see a case being made for the hardened Street Tough who can't help but freeze in terror at the first sign of trouble in the Computer world. The alternative is giving yet another Quality useful only to Mages and/or Hackers. As I have previously said, I am not necessarily campaigning for or against anything ... merely trying to ascertain the limits of the Quality (because players tend to try to stretch boundaries). |
Of course just because he turns down those jobs doesn't mean his team will. Which means he'll fall way behind on karma. When it comes down to it a runner can only turn down a job if the GM has more then one prepared or its part of the adventure.
If the hacker wants to be part of the team. He'll have to face physical combat at some point and more likly then not, often. He can do his best to avoid it even run and hide, but how often will a team of runners be ambushed in route.
My street samurai lightning jack, will never get into matrix combat. He lacks the skills for it, and thats already covered in this group. However the groups hacker, (who has combat paralysis) can't avoid combat in the physical world. He can't just sit back at home base and hack from affair. We have often needed his skills in geting maglocks open. Not to mention you often don't know whats going to happen on a run.
The hacker might agree to help with the extract run only to discover he has to be inside the building to hack the security after the fact.
Remember incompantant hacking is only 5 BP. Which is worse then combat paralysis (matrx)
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) |
| Of course just because he turns down those jobs doesn't mean his team will. Which means he'll fall way behind on karma. When it comes down to it a runner can only turn down a job if the GM has more then one prepared or its part of the adventure. If the hacker wants to be part of the team. He'll have to face physical combat at some point and more likly then not, often. He can do his best to avoid it even run and hide, but how often will a team of runners be ambushed in route. |
See, this is where we are looking at things differently. You are examining things with the mindset that there is going to be a 'team' involved, while I am just looking at the Quality itself from various angles. Shadowrun can be played in many different styles, and solo play (especially with Hacker-style characters) is no exception.
Even if there was a team involved, who's to say that they don't have a policy of only accepting jobs that they all agree on?
We can go on and on like this, each making up scenarios, but it isn't really serving the purpose that I was trying to pursue. Please be assured that I am not quite a novice when it comes to Shadowrun, and do understand the various implications of things like on-site Hacking and the like. If I don't understand something, I am not afraid to ask, as my posts on this very Forum will testify.
| QUOTE |
| Remember incompantant hacking is only 5 BP. Which is worse then combat paralysis (matrx) |
That depends on your (or your character's) point of view.
Well combat paralysis (matrix) will give a penalty to the start of matrix combat.
While incompenice hacking. Will make you unable to fight back in matrix combat. Hmm I'll take combat paralysis (matrix) for 10 BP every time givin the choice.
Also similar matrix penalty qualties are only worth 5 BP unless taken by a hacker/technomacner
I'm looking at various angles to. Most angles I see point to the hacker can't dodge physical combat as easily as a warrior can dodge cybercombat.
The solo hacker isn't really the problem, its when compared to the other characters.
The samurai should not get 10 BP for combat paralsis (matrix), as its a free 10 BP for almost any combat oriented character.
A hacker should get 10 BP for combat paralysis (physical world) because he actually has to make effort and sacrifices to avoid physical combat. A hacker can also avoid deadly combat in the matrix if he isn't running hot. He takes some penalties but it may be worth it to keep the damage at stun.
A street samurai avoiding matrix combat requires little to no effort, and unless the enemy captures the samurai and physically hooks him up to the matrix he can avoid it. Should they managed to capture him he's boned anyway because he was captured.
Alot of qualties cost depend on the type of build, which is why quailties like scorched grant more BP to hackers and technomancers then they do for other characters.
Now I play a street samurai and I think it be a little cheep for him to get 10 BP for having combat paralysis (matrix). I don't see a problem with the hacker doing it for the physical world because I know he won't be dodging physical combat as easily as I dodge the matrix. (which he dodges anyway because he's scorched)
While incompenice hacking. Will make you unable to fight back in matrix combat. Hmm I'll take combat paralysis (matrix) for 10 BP every time givin the choice.
Also similar matrix penalty qualties are only worth 5 BP unless taken by a hacker/technomacner
I'm looking at various angles to. Most angles I see point to the hacker can't dodge physical combat as easily as a warrior can dodge cybercombat.
The solo hacker isn't really the problem, its when compared to the other characters.
The samurai should not get 10 BP for combat paralsis (matrix), as its a free 10 BP for almost any combat oriented character.
A hacker should get 10 BP for combat paralysis (physical world) because he actually has to make effort and sacrifices to avoid physical combat. A hacker can also avoid deadly combat in the matrix if he isn't running hot. He takes some penalties but it may be worth it to keep the damage at stun.
A street samurai avoiding matrix combat requires little to no effort, and unless the enemy captures the samurai and physically hooks him up to the matrix he can avoid it. Should they managed to capture him he's boned anyway because he was captured.
Alot of qualties cost depend on the type of build, which is why quailties like scorched grant more BP to hackers and technomancers then they do for other characters.
Now I play a street samurai and I think it be a little cheep for him to get 10 BP for having combat paralysis (matrix). I don't see a problem with the hacker doing it for the physical world because I know he won't be dodging physical combat as easily as I dodge the matrix. (which he dodges anyway because he's scorched)
You're right. Much better to gain the 15 BP by taking Incompetency in the entire Cracking group.
I just don't think there is really need to be that picky in denying Qualities to certain 'classes'.
I just don't think there is really need to be that picky in denying Qualities to certain 'classes'.
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