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Casper
Can I get a check. As I read it Firewall is not capped to the rating of the system.

For example if I have a node with System 3 and firewall 5 then thats ok?

I just havnt seen this brought up before.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Casper)
Can I get a check. As I read it Firewall is not capped to the rating of the system.

For example if I have a node with System 3 and firewall 5 then thats ok?

I just havnt seen this brought up before.

From my look at RAW onlt Reponse and System have a special relationship. Device Ratings are attributes, and not programs running by the OS but the OS itself.
blakkie
QUOTE (Casper @ Oct 31 2006, 02:17 PM)
For example if I have a node with System 3 and firewall 5  then thats ok?

I just havnt seen this brought up before.

Yes, it appears that Firewall is completely independant from System so your example is all good.

It has come up before on this board, but not in quite a while that I've noticed.
Blade
Actually it's quite hard to tell and you can't have a definite canon answer until the FAQ comes out. Until then, it's GM call.
Butterblume
There are these subversive people who actually think firewall rating can't be higher than system rating, me being one of them.

Arguing about it hasn't got us anywhere. This is a question which can only be answered by an official ruling.
hobgoblin
and so we keep waiting for the FAQ (aka unwired)...
Blade
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
and so we keep waiting for the FAQ (aka unwired)...

No need to wait for unwired, just for the FAQ on srrpg.com (if it ever comes out ohplease.gif ).
Fortune
I don't think the rules are unclear at all. They are quite specific in that Response limits System, and System limits Programs. Firewall and Signal are not considered Programs, and are unaffected by either Response or System.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Blade)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Oct 31 2006, 10:41 PM)
and so we keep waiting for the FAQ (aka unwired)...

No need to wait for unwired, just for the FAQ on srrpg.com (if it ever comes out ohplease.gif ).

thing is that there are so many missing details in the SR4 matrix chapter, that to write a FAQ to cover them all would, imo, be about the same as writing unwired...
OneTrikPony
QUOTE (Fortune)
I don't think the rules are unclear at all. They are quite specific in that Response limits System, and System limits Programs. Firewall and Signal are not considered Programs, and are unaffected by either Response or System.

Signal is hardware, firewall is software, the two hardly relate.

software rating is caped at system rating, system rating is caped at responce.

I happen to be one of the subersives, albeit i also happen to be an SR4 n00b
PirateChef
Are we sure Firewall is software? Could it be hardwar?
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (PirateChef)
Are we sure Firewall is software? Could it be hardwar?

In real life, the short answer is they can be both. But SR has no baring on real life, so what does the rule book say?
laughingowl
is SR4 a firewall is 'software' , it is not a 'program'.

Firewall using your 'software' skill to code/upgrade. It is not 'hardware'

However: Firewall is not listed under the 'programs' which a limited by your system.


As the rules are layed out, Firewall is not capped by the rule that 'programs' are limited to running at the 'system' rating, nor does it count as a program being run to effect response.


System and Firewall ARE Software.

System and Firewall may invovle programs, but they are not Programs as defined on page 225.


Now I could see house rules saying firwall is capped at system (though personally I would say response, or if wanting to reflect more 'old' school I would allow that system+firewall is capped at response*2

Note: I would see this as a 'soft rating'. System 6, firewall 2, Response 4 system would be allowed.

However: Effective system would be capped at 4, and programs would be limited at 4; however, you could run 6 programs with no degredation of the response.
starkebn
Rulebook calls it Software - but the problem is it says System limits Programs not limits Software.

I'm one of the "System limits Firewall" people
Ryu
I dont get how seeing the difference makes you one of the "all software is a program"-sect?

I prefer an unlimited firewall rating, else the number of rating 5- comlinks on the team will be zero after a few runs. And that just happens to be the way I read the RAW.
The Jopp
The interesting thing is that they have carefully explained that SYSTEM is limited by Response but there is NO such indication when describing FIREWALL and I can only agree to that.

The Firewall is not something that functions better depending on the quality of your system but rather on how narrow its instructions are on what they are supposed to allow in or out.

Zonealarm is one example cant remember that it takes up a lot of system resources and its still working fine.
Mistwalker
I am in the Firewall is not capped camp.

Like others, I seem to recall reading that somewhere in the RAW, but can't seem to find that exact reference again.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
QUOTE (PirateChef @ Nov 1 2006, 02:07 AM)
Are we sure Firewall is software?  Could it be hardwar?

In real life, the short answer is they can be both. But SR has no baring on real life, so what does the rule book say?

a hardware firewall in real life still does its job in software, its just that said software is running on a dedicated set of hardware. chokepoints anyone?
The Jopp
QUOTE (hobgoblin)

a hardware firewall in real life still does its job in software, its just that said software is running on a dedicated set of hardware. chokepoints anyone?

Hobgoblin raises a good point. System and Firewall are two different set of software run on the same commlink but most likely under different parts of the hardware.

The firewall is the first defense against intrusion which means it could very well be a small firmware firewall that is separate from the actual commlink and the System monitors the information the Firewall sends to it.

Thus Firewall is a separate part from the actual System that monitors the traffic and depending on the rating has a number of options in order to limit traffic and stop intrusions. And System in turn gains information from the Firewall in order to make sure that is can act against intrusions.

Yea, SR4 does not follows RL but if system performance would affect the Firewall in RL then my computer would be open wide for attack as soon as I start up any kind of game online...
Blade
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
thing is that there are so many missing details in the SR4 matrix chapter, that to write a FAQ to cover them all would, imo, be about the same as writing unwired...

There aren't so much missing details. There are some, like this trouble about firewalls, but apart from that, all you have to do is get used to it.
Understanding combat or magic isn't really difficult, since everybody can imagine what it's like, or has enough experience from previous editions. The new Matrix is totally new, so it takes some time to adapt.

But all you really need to do is read the whole chapter once or twice, think about it and try to understand it and view it as a whole. A good starting point is to consider it as the physical plane : a node is like a room or a building, a security hacker is a security guard, ICEs are drones, the stealth program is an invisibility spell and/or stealth skill, the spoof program is the disguise skill (and other things too), analyze is perception, and so on.

Combat rules don't say that you can cut a cable to make a container fall on an opponent, but you can do it. It just gives you the rules to consider how much damage you need to do to cut the cable and how much damage a falling thing does. Just the same, Matrix rules just give you the basics and it's up to you to make something out of it. I don't think there's a dire need for new rules (they'll just uselessly make things too slow and complex) but just for an explanation and examples of actual rules.
hobgoblin
blade, the issue is that while the magic and combat chapters are mostly refreshed versions of what have come before (with some nasty details here and there) the wireless matrix is new from the ground up. and its more or less empty of examples. sure there is some "a day in the life of a matrix user" but they do not connect fiction to rules.

its not so much rules that are missing as examples about how to use said rules.

take the system and response interaction, there are no examples about how it behaves. and this lack of examples leads to people reading at least 3 interpretations into it, and creating house rules based on those.

same with how hot sim VR and rigging should or should not interact.

they are tossing all kinds of lego blocks out there and leaving it up to the reader about how they can and cant be connected together. some end up using sledgehammers, others knifes, and some just give up...

so, more examples of the rules in use, please. the rest have been used (with minor variations) since at least SR1. its only the matrix rules that have had 3 major revisions in about the same number of BBB releases.

first one had the dungeon crawl, then came VR2.0 with its pure numbers. now its wireless and always present, with a AR and VR mode.

thats another area that needs an example, the interaction between wired reflexes and AR matrix use.
Blade
If you read my post, you'll see that I'm saying exactly the same thing as you are :
1. The Matrix is totally new.
2. The Matrix chapter tosses elements and that's up to the reader to connect them together.
3. All we need is examples.
wink.gif
hobgoblin
hmm, your right, sorry about that.

still, i maintain the view that the number of examples needed will probably fill up a good sized book. a book like unwired...
Fortune
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Nov 1 2006, 04:41 PM)
software rating is caped at system rating, system rating is caped at responce.


Programs are limited by System! Nowhere does canon make any such general statement about all Software.

I suggest you read the appropraite section again. Please note that at no time is there any mention of limitations to anything other the Programs in the section on System, and no mention of limitations at all in the Firewall section.
Mr. Unpronounceable
sigh...you might be right, but -

you don't see how many, if not most, people would consider programs and software to be the synonyms they are in real life?
Fortune
I understand that, but canon does seem to make a distinction as to Program and Software.

Firewall is treated as Software (well, because it is), and that Skill is used when dealing with it. Programs are also considered Software (again, because they are!), and the same Skill is used in relation to creating or adapting them.

Programs though, are specifically delineated as such, both in their own section of the rules, and scattered about the various other sections (as is the norm for a Shadowrun release).

There is no mention at all of Firewall being a Program anywhere in the rules. Firewall has it's own section, totally seperated from that of the Programs.

In the section on Firewalls (or anywhere for that matter), there is no mention of any limitations in relation to System or Response ... indeed there exists no limitations whatsoever (outside of an upper limit available).

The rules are pretty clear. System is limited specifially in relation to Response. Programs are limited specifically in relation to System. Firewall is considered neither a Program (in the SR4 sense) nor the System itself, and is therefore not limited in such manner.
Ryu
That is a very unfortunate consequence of using simple denominations instead of longer descriptions. Within SR4, several bits of software are not programs.

How would "most people" define "program"? How would they define "software"? We are at the cause of the problem, but the core is understanding definitions outside of general consensus. Any subculture deviates from the norm.
Fortune
I do understand the misconception, but I just don't see why it is that hard to grasp when you read it carefully.

Just because Programs are considered Software, and Firewall is also considered to be Software, does not mean that Firewall is considered the exact same thing as a Program.

A monkey is an animal, and an elephant is also an animal, but that doesn't mean that a monkey is the exact same thing as an elephant.
hobgoblin
the software and hardware bits of the comlink attribute descriptions have, in my view, more about how they are built. ie, response and signal are hardware components that require physical disassembly to upgrade or replace. os and firewall are something that you can upgrade by installing the new code.

it may well be that the firewall is running on its own dedicated hardware away from the response chips so that you cant compromise the workings of your firewall by overloading your comlink with programs or agents. hardware that does one thing and one thing only, run the firewall software.

and upgrading the firewall software is probably just as much about adding better pattern recognition routines and attack fingerprints as it is anything else. "if this, this, and this happens, the probability of address X trying an attack is 84,6%. that is above the threshold, address blacklisted for 30min".
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