Underworld was it for a while, but it seems to have died a slow and somewhat painful death.

What I meant was that after the demise of the Lounge, Underworld was specifically adapted to fill that role. At the time, the only other place was the slowly sinking Bulldrek. The others you mention came about afterward (well FS-Alpha anyway ... not sure about AnimalBall). I'm not making any statements as to relevence or quality of those forums.

I missed the last few months of Underworld, and didn't catch the specifics of the implosion, but the writing was on the wall for a long time. Sad in a way, but it never really was the same as the Lounge ... merely a hangout for the Hugs-n-Kisses Brigade™.

The counter argument to that logic is that a person would have to visit multiple forums in order to discuss a variety of current events, not to mention other topical subjects that might pique the interest momentarily.

There is also the fact that people like a sense of community. We all share a love (some more than others) of Shadowrun, so we therefore all have at least some common ground. We are comfortable for the most part with the flow of conversation among the regulars. With this comes the desire to expand the conversation base to topics outside the Shadowrun RPG, while still enjoying the embrace of a community in which you feel comfortable and welcome.

Better moderation might have saved the old Lounge. I'm not pointing any fingers or casting any blame, but in my opinion the whole situation could have been dealt with in a much better manner.

Water under the bridge, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't mind seeing a Lounge II.

Huh, my experiences are just the opposite. In fact the one forum I visit for "on topic" discussion about a specific thing is DSF, which is ridiculously clogged with garbage that people pretend are posts.

Now I try to realize that with nearly 8000 users DSF is bound to have some flotsam, but to me it's becoming increasingly worse. Now that's not to say your experiences or anyone else's mirror my own here. We each have our own tastes.

Really the same could be said about anyone, on any forum-or for that matter in real life. Seriously we're all one bad day, one bad decision away from mayhem.

That said I like the balance we've achieved at Animalball currently. In all fairness we have some silliness here and there, but it's generally intended in good humor, and has yet to be a problem. Who knows maybe it will end, but then all forums have a life span right?

Wow, I don't what forums you've been hanging around at, but jeesh did they bias you much? Bitter much?

If by better you mean no moderation, I'd agree with you. Once you start trying to artificially control the flow of conversation you're bound for disaster. It's how the Lounge died here, it's why Underworld died, it's why RPG.net is such a horrible place.

Ediolon, Fortune put it very well and I echo everything that he's said. But I'll add that I find the above offensive. We've communicated extensively off-list (as you requested I keep it away from the boards), and so I don't think there's anyone here who has challenged the new, heavier moderation as consistently as I have. And yet, I think I'm one of the politest people here. So what in your experience with myself, or others who've voiced concern about the new moderation, leads you to stereotype us as poo-flinging monkeys? As Paul says, it's the opposite in my experience on Dumpshock.

We're a community. We come to know each other. And I'm often interested in people's opinions on things other than Shadowrun.

The Lounge here was enough, but it is hardly the only time have seen it. And the forums I am a member of currently (speaking of "other than DS here), I'm a member of because they're about topics I'm interested in, have more members that contribute positively than negatively, and are well moderated.

Again, if you want unmoderated discussion of random topics, there are plenty of places on the internet to find it, and nothing keeping you from doing so. That's not a "get away from DS" or anything of the kind. Merely factual statement.

Frankly, I wonder what kind of forums you've been to, if your experience is one of Utopian harmony rather than of degenerate nonsense.

@knasser and others

I don't mean any offense to you personally. I'm not speaking of any one person, any two people, etc.

However, I have read the old Lounge here. I have seen other forums where the norm is "anything goes". Knasser, you joined after the Lounge was shut down, and therefore don't have the same frame of reference as some others. Paul, maybe you can handle yourself well on an unmoderated forum, no matter what the members and community are like.

None of that matters in the "cosmic" sense. You individuals are not the whole of the Dumpshock community. The Dumpshock community, in fact, includes current members, old members, and equally important, new members that join.

Moderation and forum atmosphere aren't done and created to cater to one person. They must cater to all, to the extent possible and within the bounds of the context provided by the forum. And due to this, the approach must be one such that all members, current and future, can feel like Dumpshock is a place that they can come and freely discuss Shadowrun and related topics, without fear of being mocked, insulted, berated, put down, and generally made to feel unwelcome.

At present, Dumpshock gets pretty close to that. We're working on making it a better place.

The fact is, Dumpshock is not anyone's personal playground. Rules and moderation aren't in place to restrict one person's "freedom of expression", they're in place to aid in the creation of the atmosphere I describe above.

And yet most do, both for the community reasons I mentioned above, and to keep the signal-to-noise ratio of posts in their main forums down to a manageable minimum.

It wasn't. It was unevenly moderated, varying at times from controlled to a total free-for-all. This lack of consistancy left people in some confusion as to what was and was not acceptable.

You're correct. Please notice I am a member of each of the aforementioned forums. Having been a member of this forum long enough to have seen the Lounge come and go at least twice, maybe even three times I think you have no idea what you're talking about-but that is neither here nor there.

You are as in entitled to believe whatever you'd like as I am entitled to believe what I'd like.

And it wasn't taken that way, at least not by me. If you were interested.

Please note in my above post that I mentioned there have been problems from time, but obviously I either have thicker skin than you, or I'm just bothered by a need to have everything perfectly ordered.

I enjoy some chaos from time to time.

As for the forum I currently run my PB3's, and do the great deal of my discussion on: Animalball.

The implication that most people can't or that you can't? Either way you can understand my vociferous objections I'm sure.

So the community should be limited by that? By what has been? That automatically predicts what could be?

I think you have a very narrow view on this, and I think that's a shame. Having been a member of this community since 1997 I can say with out reservation, with out hesitation that it has grown progressively less fun, less interesting and worse.

Now maybe you object to that characterization, but it's where I stand-and I think I'm not alone. (Nor do I think you're alone.) Unfortunately for people with my perspective we can get no relief, no consideration for what we want. As such I posted this thread to draw those people to Animalball. Not to somehow in someway childishly attack DSF-but to allow them to take that part of their entertainment elsewhere.

And make no mistake, that is what DSF is. Entertainment.

But really, here, they do cater to a small group of people. They have to. They can't make everyone happy, and they've publicly said that their not interested in doing it even if they could.

Have you read the forum lately? Personally I'm surprised half the users who are currently active haven't been banned. Especially considering why previous users have been banned.

Now maybe this means the admins here are trying to take a hands off approach, and if so cool. But to me it seems much more likely real life has them busy and they just aren't reading the forums like they would if they were unemployed, in college or what not.

Forgive me for laughing loudly.

Are you part of the moderating team? Or is this just your personal goal?

Well actually as I understand it Marco owns the placem, but yeah whatever.

Says you. Obviously not everyone agrees with idealistic version of DSF.

And see, I think Drop Bears is exactly what is wrong with this forum. That and threads like it.

What he said!

Didn't you just post a long thing about how you don't mind a "little bit of chaos"? Anyway, assuming there were a loung, the drop bear thread (and ones like it) would STILL be here and STILL in the same grouping. The lounge would only muddy things by bringing in posters who have interest in nothing shadowrun related (as we saw when the lounge was open. I don't recollect subrosa posting on a single shadowrun related thread, although he/she/it posted regularly in the lounge).

I really can't understand why you are campaigning for a non-shadowrun area in a shadowrun forum, but get upset that there are shadowrun joke threads in the same forum. Am I completely missing the thrust of your argument?

You're entitled to your opinion. Thanks for having the presence of mind to realize that that's what it is.

It has nothing to do with how thick or thin my skin is. I think this is where you and others are really missing the point somewhat. It doesn't matter what any one person can or can't take, does or doesn't want to have to be subject to, etc.

Yet you are bothered by the Drop Bear thread. I too am puzzled by this.

Do you administrate or moderate at any of the forums you are on? I ask because it really is a different experience than being a member, one that comes with an entirely different viewpoint, different "rules" as it were.

Yes. Frankly, the implication is that some can't. But note that I'm not the one attaching negative connotations to that. Some people do not want to have to be subject to mockery, for example. (And it is only one example, I use it merely because it's the simplest and most commonly witnessed form of poor online manners, as it were.) And because those people are members here, we must do what we can to provide an atmosphere that they, too, can enjoy freely. Is it your opinion that those people are less deserving of a place to discuss a game that they enjoy than those with your "thick skin"?

You seem to keep mistaking my disagreement for misunderstanding.

Again, you're certainly free to hold your opinion, but it's hardly the majority opinion that you seem to think it to be.

I never saw it as a childish attack or anything of the like, for what it's worth. I do find it somewhat comical that you've played the martyr card. The "relief" that you so need seems to have been found after all, has it not? Isn't that why you posted the link to Animalball?

And as I've stated, we're currently working on that. Laugh at the notion if you like, but we're doing our best to smooth out enforcement of policies, improving the posting atmosphere, and for lack of a better description, making DSF better. As you say, we are indeed limited by our normal lives to an extent, but I'm curious as to why you use that as if it were some kind of "ah-hah" support for your arguments. We have lives outside of the internet, just like everyone else. On top of that, we have volunteered to moderate the forums in addition to being regular members. And this is negative, somehow?

This has been answered, but I'd like to add that if it were the personal goal of more people, none of this would be at issue.

I'm here just about every day, for most of the day. I have been trying to take the approach of stepping in to make sure things don't get out of hand, and mostly let things go as they will. As evidenced by the BOOO shadowrun and tangents on threads like the Pendragon. I consider threads like DropBears and Emo's pages controlled chaos. If nothing else, they've stayed remarkably on topic, even if the topic is admittadly warped.

I think Animal Ball is a great idea, and would go there myself if I had more time. As for a lounge, we've been told ( us little moderator types) by the folks that asked us to help out, that they don't want to deal with a lounge again. So asking folks to come over to Animal ball is a good thing in my mind. So I don't see a point of debating about whether or not there should be a lounge here.

I'm gonne shut up now though, because I said I didn't really want in on this arguement, since there doesn't seem much point to it, and then I went on for two paragraphs.

See, I don't mind, and would kind of like to be able to discuss current events and trivial bullshit with the people here ... people that I can relate to, even if I don't like each and every one of them. I don't want to have to join three or four or seventy-five different communities to keep up with the latest crap, or just gossip back and forth.

I believe that it is a trivial thing for you to ignore the Lounge entirely (isn't there a setting in the My Assistant feature that could accommodate this?) if you are not interested in it at all.

Paul has kindly provided one, animaball.

Not as far as I can tell, but I might have missed it. And I know many users, both old and new, are also unaware of it.

Yeah. I knew that too! I blame lack of sleep and Paul's reference in an earlier post. Funny thing is that I first typed in Neuron Basher, but was so tired that I wasn't sure on the spelling, so switched to the, ultimately inane Marco. again!

And that's fair enough. It wasn't my initial intent to actually push for a Lounge Renewed™ as much as it was to lament its passing.

But as I said, I can see it being a viable option, given more consitant moderation ... if the situation ever arises.

Chaos, to me, doesn't go hand in hand with ass-which is what I consider the Drop Bear thread, and well a lot of what is posted here to be, because really it's off topic Lounge style discussion thinly veiled as being semi-Shadowrun related.

Don't mistake that, however, for a call to disallow you or others from posting it. But to me it's indicative of what passes for fun around here, and frankly I don't care for it.

Uhm, I'm not. I keep saying this one word over and over again and it's Animalball. DSF could close tomorrow and I wouldn't really much care.

Yes. I know they don't want a Lounge here, and I don't care if they get a Lounge here. Ever.

And by the way disliking the Drop Bear thread as being childish and too silly for me doesn't equate to me being upset.

Like I said, I know opinions will vary.

Oh but it does matter, as it goes a long way-at times-towards determining official policy, especially here. DSF has a history of moderators who moderate based on their emotional status and not the forums rules.

A little piece of unsolicited advice eidolon:

Just because you can't please everyone, doesn't mean you don't have to listen to anyone.

Maybe that's unwarranted, and you already knew that little tidbit, maybe not.

I'm bothered that the Drop bear thread has become one of the most popular threads, and the pattern it sets on DSF. It's part of the reason why users like me don't post here as much as we used to.

Now maybe that doesn't matter, which is okay.

Only if you make it that way. While I play a role, I am not an administrator (per say) on any board. I did help determine a variety of boards policies, and attitudes.

But all of that doesn't matter. You volunteered for this job right? Who's playng the martyr card now?

Which says a lot about you to me.

And in real life you come to the aid of every person you hear insulted? All of the time?

My hero.

Isn't it? Out of the 8000 or so members how many are active posters? How many of your core posters come and go, never to return?

Make no mistake I don't really think we're a majority, but we are significant.

For what it's worth I really didn't mean to climb up on a cross there.

Absolutely not. It does mean however you guys need to carefully consider which rules are significant enough to enforce and which aren't. Which I am sure you already know.

I want to like you for standing by this principle, but I'll be honest I'll wait and see. It's an awful lot to believe.

I can definitely agree with that.

Just FYI, we make a practice of asking other mods for second opinions on a lot of things to make sure that we get a clear view of things before we make any admin-type posts or send warnings. And we didn't volunteer, we were asked.

As far not listening to anyone, I won't speak for eidolon, but I make a point of requesting feedback from folks, for what it's worth.

What, exactly? That I'm aware that people have different outlooks, different values, and different personal tolerances? What a terrible thing to know about someone.

Of course not all the time. But if I do witness someone getting uncomfortable in a social situation at the hands of another individual or a group, yes, I will go to that person's defense. Even if it's a quick "hey, is this making you uncomfortable?" Again, I fail to see how you think this characterizes me in a bad light.

We do, and in fact a rework of the ToS, guidelines, et al is in progress (although as you were quick to point out, it may be slower in coming than we'd like, what with having real lives and all).

I agree.

As do I, especially when it's a case that isn't a direct violation of a current ToS or posting guideline. However, I also feel that there must be a certain level of autonomy, due primarily to the fact that we aren't all on concurrently, and some things really shouldn't be left to stew while we wait for an opportunity to discuss them.

No, and there likely won't be. The content exists as an archive, but I would think that it will be deleted when we move to new forum software in the future.

Heh. Apparently, time be damned.

*raises hand*

Actually...

Look, the fact is, we've tried off topic forums here twice. It didn't work out.

The first time around, the break up was kinda ugly, and she moved on pretty quickly. It hurt, but we managed to become friends after a while. We even felt bad when she had her next breakup. (aka, the Bulldrek forum back in the day )

The second one... that was just ugly, because it turns out, she was a disease ridden whore. We let that relationship go one for a while, because hey, it was some nookie and it was easier than hitting the dating scene. But eventually, we got tired of her whining, complaining, doing drugs, discussing deviant sexual practices at great length and in much detail, and bring strange men over when we weren't around. We dumped her, she bitched quite a bit, but in the end, I think we're better for it. (Lounge, baby. She was a whore, and you all know it )

I won't say there will never be an off topic board ever again, because hey, never say never. Plus, I don;t actually own the boards, so I can always get over ruled But for the time being, there are no plans for it. It takes far too much work, caused waaaay too many problems, and at the end of the day, is not the prupose of these forums.

We're a Shadowrun board, we're here to provide a place to discuss Shadowrun. That is our focus, and anything that detracts from that focus... Well, it's got to go.

Bull