Our group was recently grilled as to our clubbing/relaxation habits in game. It had come up that most of us avoided BTL (Three didn't have a chipjack and the fourth was too white collar), we didn't really have much understanding of the drug culture outside of that. So, being that we're into a really gritty kind of Shadowrun world, we started to wonder whether recreational drug use was something our runners partook of, and we started to make up a whole drug cocktail people might take.
Do you play a character who uses drugs without them being a critical problem for the character, just to relax/amp their performance?
It seems to me that most players avoid these kind of things (especially for their character's recreational use) out of fear of the consequences, but drug use is prevalent now, and we don't have anywhere near the level of sophistication you'd find in the future.
Full Version: Drug Use In Your Game
I've had characters that used and misused drugs. Recreationally (novacoke), prefessionally (kamikaze), as well as spiritually. Personally, I don't see why the underworld would suddenly rid itself of drugs just because there's a technological equivalent in the form of beetles. Players who avoid drug use in their games for the negative consequences should ask themself earnestly if they're doing that from their character's prespective (roleplaying) or their own perspective (meta-gaming).
BTLs will be far more common and far more prevalent than drugs for one simple reason, start-up costs.
In order to manufacture opiates you need large fields of poppies and a professional chemist. In order to manufacture cocaine you need large fields of coca and a professional chemist. In order to manufacture amphetamines you need a variety of chemicals and a professional chemist. In order to manufacture LSD you need a variety of chemicals and a professional chemist. The list goes on; this isn't cheap.
Sure, bathtub meth is possible but it isn't very good and you still need a professional level chemistry skill..
Manufacturing BTLs, on the other hand, is no more dificult than burning a DVD is today. All you need is a cheap box of optical chips from Wal-mart and a half decent telecom equipped with some simsense authoring software. Heck, the dialog boxes will probably do most of the work for you. All you have to do is set the sensory tracks up to BTL levels and you're all set. Best of all, you don't have to do any smuggling. Do you have any idea how much trouble it is to grow coca leaves in South America, transform them into cocaine, and then smuggle the completed product past all of the relevant boarder patrols (Those azzies don't take too kindly to drug smugglers, I don't imagine). And if your making designer drugs at home then your home is going to be a very obvious and very smelly drug lab. It isn't something that you can hide, only the lack of police presence in Z-zones can protect such an establishment. On the other hand, you can make BTLs in your living room with the same equipment used to make recordings of kids' birthday parties.
Best of all, you can make a BTL out of any sense recoding, all you have to do is upsample it to BTL levels. You can make a BTL of your kid's birthday party if you wanted to, or of the newest Schwarzenegger movie.
Also, BTLs are safer than drugs. They're basically the same as decking (Hot VR uses BTL level simsense feeds). Anyone who can deck without brain damage should be able to do BTLs without brain damage.
Really, BTLs are very white collar. You're just as likely to see Jame Smith down the block dealing them on the side along with her famous chocolate cookies as you are to see Rosco the thug dealing them.
In order to manufacture opiates you need large fields of poppies and a professional chemist. In order to manufacture cocaine you need large fields of coca and a professional chemist. In order to manufacture amphetamines you need a variety of chemicals and a professional chemist. In order to manufacture LSD you need a variety of chemicals and a professional chemist. The list goes on; this isn't cheap.
Sure, bathtub meth is possible but it isn't very good and you still need a professional level chemistry skill..
Manufacturing BTLs, on the other hand, is no more dificult than burning a DVD is today. All you need is a cheap box of optical chips from Wal-mart and a half decent telecom equipped with some simsense authoring software. Heck, the dialog boxes will probably do most of the work for you. All you have to do is set the sensory tracks up to BTL levels and you're all set. Best of all, you don't have to do any smuggling. Do you have any idea how much trouble it is to grow coca leaves in South America, transform them into cocaine, and then smuggle the completed product past all of the relevant boarder patrols (Those azzies don't take too kindly to drug smugglers, I don't imagine). And if your making designer drugs at home then your home is going to be a very obvious and very smelly drug lab. It isn't something that you can hide, only the lack of police presence in Z-zones can protect such an establishment. On the other hand, you can make BTLs in your living room with the same equipment used to make recordings of kids' birthday parties.
Best of all, you can make a BTL out of any sense recoding, all you have to do is upsample it to BTL levels. You can make a BTL of your kid's birthday party if you wanted to, or of the newest Schwarzenegger movie.
Also, BTLs are safer than drugs. They're basically the same as decking (Hot VR uses BTL level simsense feeds). Anyone who can deck without brain damage should be able to do BTLs without brain damage.
Really, BTLs are very white collar. You're just as likely to see Jame Smith down the block dealing them on the side along with her famous chocolate cookies as you are to see Rosco the thug dealing them.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| (Those azzies don't take too kindly to drug smugglers, I don't imagine). |
Weren't the Azzies from the ORO corporation which was basically three drug cartels that joined together?
or did you mean take kindly to drug smugglers OTHER than themselves?
I deal with enough of that in RL. It's part of the game world, though, so we acknowledge it as something that a lot of characters do. But we never really delve into it in role-playing.
The problem with SR drugs is the rules are completely pooched. You really cannot use drugs more than a few times without running a real risk of permanently ruining the character. Yeah yeah, drugs are bad, now let's stop playing in the kiddie pool, alright?
I have made a whole set of new drug addiction and use rules, and brought in both SR and RL drugs for use in my SR game. Prescription meds, combat drugs and recreational drugs all exist and, with few exceptions, will not cause you to spiral into addiction on the second use. If anyone would like them, I'll post them here. I haven't had any PCs use them yet (probably because I haven't dropped them into anyone's lap yet), but they will, oh yes they will...
The characters I make that use drugs almost inevitably get stuck in games that die within days.
I have made a whole set of new drug addiction and use rules, and brought in both SR and RL drugs for use in my SR game. Prescription meds, combat drugs and recreational drugs all exist and, with few exceptions, will not cause you to spiral into addiction on the second use. If anyone would like them, I'll post them here. I haven't had any PCs use them yet (probably because I haven't dropped them into anyone's lap yet), but they will, oh yes they will...
The characters I make that use drugs almost inevitably get stuck in games that die within days.
| QUOTE (Sicarius) |
| or did you mean take kindly to drug smugglers OTHER than themselves? |
That would be my take.
We've had afew characters use BTL's. I've had a few of my own use combat drugs. But for the most part, it isn't usually addressed in our games on the PC's side.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| If anyone would like them, I'll post them here. |
Go ahead and post them. I'm definitely interested.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| BTLs will be far more common and far more prevalent than drugs for one simple reason, start-up costs. In order to manufacture opiates you need large fields of poppies and a professional chemist. In order to manufacture cocaine you need large fields of coca and a professional chemist. |
...this would hold true for any form of recreational drug particularly those that require something be grown as an ingredient or used in it's virgin form.
This would validate the Addiction Quality for such substances since they would be less common and more expensive to indulge in than BTLs.
None of my characters use any drugs with a game-mechanical effect, and IIRC none of those of the other players do, either. (though as far as I'm concerned, most deckers and riggers are at least halfway to being junkies anyway)
One of my characters does consume huge amounts of prescription painkillers, but it's all flavor - I needed a justification for the enormous amounts of punishment he can absorb and still keep functioning - so I frequently go with the *chews a couple of Percoset tablets* shtick.
(In about a week / week and a half of game time he had ended up with D stun twice (fucking mages and a depleted Karma pool) a 9-box S wound courtesy of a bug (a D++ wound, soaked down), about 5 or 6 other potential D-level wounds he soaked down to L or nothing, several minor injuries from gunfire, and the after effects of being at ground zero of a couple of grenade blasts. Between being very good at First Aid, and having very high Body and Willpower stats, it took him 3 days to recover from the worst one, the 9-box wound, and he's currently got no wound mods.)
One of my characters does consume huge amounts of prescription painkillers, but it's all flavor - I needed a justification for the enormous amounts of punishment he can absorb and still keep functioning - so I frequently go with the *chews a couple of Percoset tablets* shtick.
(In about a week / week and a half of game time he had ended up with D stun twice (fucking mages and a depleted Karma pool) a 9-box S wound courtesy of a bug (a D++ wound, soaked down), about 5 or 6 other potential D-level wounds he soaked down to L or nothing, several minor injuries from gunfire, and the after effects of being at ground zero of a couple of grenade blasts. Between being very good at First Aid, and having very high Body and Willpower stats, it took him 3 days to recover from the worst one, the 9-box wound, and he's currently got no wound mods.)
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| If anyone would like them, I'll post them here. |
Please do, it's something I'm interested in. I also found this when I was looking for rules a while back. Its from 2nd ed, but I still found it interesting.
i have exactly one character who uses drugs in SR, and she only uses them for combat. this is not a moral choice, for me. it's based on the fact that drug rules in SR are insane. you can't just be a casual drug user, in SR--hit a line of novacoke at a party, get trashed on burn every weekend, etcetera. no, you're always either addicted or about to become addicted.
As I said in the other thread related to this topic (in the SR4 forum) ... I find the overly crippling effects of drugs inane in this type of game setting.
seriously. what kind of dark future kills anyone who does something bad (assuming you find drug use 'bad')? moreover, what kind of medical technology can completely heal someone in three days who was at the brink of death, yet not clean out a simple drug dependency?
I kept combat drugs as they are. Non-combat drugs I changed mildly. You'll notice the tolerance/addiction numbers mean I make a test (will or body) after the tolerance/addiction number of uses per six months. Most drugs (novacoke being the exception) cannot addict you after a single use. The second aspect is I simply said overuse does not require a body/magic check. Most of the drug rules will vary depending upon the individual drug (and GM's call). In other words, drug use does not imply immediate addiction followed by painful death. I say how long it takes for an addiction roll to come up. If you want to know how addiction to a particular drug works, feel free to research the real life version. In regards to anything odd (like stacking kamikaze and MBW) common sense rules all.
The exact wording I use in my game is:
The exact wording I use in my game is:
[ Spoiler ]
for each]
)
I find the notion of drugs providing a permanent skill or attribute boost (as with marijuana) worrying. See, taking drugs should at best be a tradeoff; Short-term boosts while risking long-term disaster. As written, there's seemingly no reason why you wouldn't just give schoolkids weed.
I grabbed that one off another file and I'd assume it only applies while it is still being used. Discontinue use results in an immediate loss of the benefits.
I had a character who i gave a bliss addiction too. never got to play him, so I don't know how long he'd make it. But yeah. drug rules=broken
Since I have no experience with hardcore drugs or even with pot, the only addictions I roleplay are alcohol ones.
Caffiene addictions are fun too.
Caffiene addictions are fun too.
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| I deal with enough of that in RL. |
This may be a bit of a hijack, but did anyone else read this and imagine an episode of Dog the Bounty hunter where Dog says, "Alright! Tonite forget the bounties, we're playing Shadowrun!"
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| Since I have no experience with hardcore drugs or even with pot, the only addictions I roleplay are alcohol ones. Caffiene addictions are fun too. |
Since you have (I imagine) no experience shooting people or casting fireballs, does that mean you avoid firearms and spellslingers?
| QUOTE (Penta @ Nov 17 2006, 02:21 PM) |
| I find the notion of drugs providing a permanent skill or attribute boost (as with marijuana) worrying. |
Yet it is (for certain, limited classes of drugs) accurate. Muscle mass gained with the assistance of anabolic steroids will remain, provided normal maintenance is performed.
That said, the "permanent effects" table seems, at brief perusal, to have less connection with reality than the original drug rules.
Edit: likewise with the "effects" table. My god, what was their source for PCP information, DARE?
~J
Like I said, the majority of these drugs I grabbed wholesale from another source. I have written up three drugs on my own, but each one generally took me several hours of research. I would *love* for someone else to write up more realistic drugs for me to use. (None of the drugs I wrote are listed in this thread, although they are posted elsewhere in DSF. They're all things to replace gamma scopaline, if memory serves.)
With steroids I stuck to the official version - it decreases the karma cost of increasing stats.
With steroids I stuck to the official version - it decreases the karma cost of increasing stats.
My characters are usually magically active so they avoided stuff that could screw up the mind/body. booze was common in our games and wee had several runs involving drugs/chips. usually dealers and users or abusers. occassional bodyguard work with some rocker or sim starlet who used and we'd look the other way.
One of our tech players, remember Hot Wheels, who loved cars and drones got into chips "as just another way to explore tech" it got interesting.
Yeah the real trouble with recreational drugs in game (for the record I've never dried anything other than booze in RL) is that they screw up the character almost form the get go. In the RL world you may not respect/expect that only a few uses of crack or opium or meth can screw you up and stagger into it but in game play, you know what will happen and who wants to trash their character?
Alos as professionals they should be above that line. maybe in a gritty street level game gang bangers might do it but the a level and a level want to bes should be too aware of the risks. I mean in the drug culture the serious players don't dip into their own stash, they just deal. the ones that hit their own stash are slipping.
One of our tech players, remember Hot Wheels, who loved cars and drones got into chips "as just another way to explore tech" it got interesting.
Yeah the real trouble with recreational drugs in game (for the record I've never dried anything other than booze in RL) is that they screw up the character almost form the get go. In the RL world you may not respect/expect that only a few uses of crack or opium or meth can screw you up and stagger into it but in game play, you know what will happen and who wants to trash their character?
Alos as professionals they should be above that line. maybe in a gritty street level game gang bangers might do it but the a level and a level want to bes should be too aware of the risks. I mean in the drug culture the serious players don't dip into their own stash, they just deal. the ones that hit their own stash are slipping.
I would agree that most professionals would avoid most recreational drugs in order to keep themselves in top form. However combat drugs can and should give an edge even to the best of the best. I can imagine that any corporation trying to push the limit of their expensive resources just a bit farther would develop a number of pharms for the express purpose of letting their men fight harder and longer, and get back into it sooner. Only the first of those list is really wanting in SR rules, but it is definitely wanting (the other two are covered by first aid and doctoring).
Again, we need more combat drugs. We need the cheap stuff that makes a punk on the street dangerous again, and the expensive stuff that lets your super street sam put a few more holes in people without breaking his ware or the little bits of meat that holds said ware together.
Again, we need more combat drugs. We need the cheap stuff that makes a punk on the street dangerous again, and the expensive stuff that lets your super street sam put a few more holes in people without breaking his ware or the little bits of meat that holds said ware together.
| QUOTE (nezumi) | ||
Since you have (I imagine) no experience shooting people or casting fireballs, does that mean you avoid firearms and spellslingers? |
Well, I rarely make spellcasters as PCs anymore since I get bored picking out the spells.
Regarding shootey shootey people, well, I at least have 2 semesters of firearms classes using a variety of pistols and longarms at a range setting, so I at least know what it feels like to hold and operate a firearm. If I wanted to make my character more interesting when shooting someone I can talk about using (or not using) the iron sights, and things like that.
But, I don't even have the slightest idea what it feels like to do weed or acid, since I've never done it. My depiction of these activities would be limited to, "My guy inhales the weed. It makes him experience a positive feeling. He, uh, does it again?"
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| But, I don't even have the slightest idea what it feels like to do weed or acid, since I've never done it. My depiction of these activities would be limited to, "My guy inhales the weed. It makes him experience a positive feeling. He, uh, does it again?" |
From my experience with prescription opiates, exchanging "buzzes the nurse and is injected with" for "inhales the" and "Demerol" for "weed" would be rather accurate.
As a general rule, if you can describe how the drugs are making you feel then you haven't taken enough.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| My depiction of these activities would be limited to, "My guy inhales the weed. It makes him experience a positive feeling. He, uh, does it again?" |
Sounds about right!
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||
From my experience with prescription opiates, exchanging "buzzes the nurse and is injected with" for "inhales the" and "Demerol" for "weed" would be rather accurate. As a general rule, if you can describe how the drugs are making you feel then you haven't taken enough. |
Well, I seem to be a pretty articulate drunk. People have expressed amazement at my verbal coherence and clarity of ideas after downing an entire small bottle (the ~pint sized ones) of Johnny Walker red label in the space of a few minutes. I was staggering, but my mouth was still going like a college professor with a nasty Excedrin addiction.
So, basically, while I feel like I can portray a very convincing drunk, I really don't have any confidence in my ability to portray a morphened up or potted up person.
To quote Arlo Guthrie- "Like wavey Gravey said, if you remember the '60's you weren't really there."
Combat drugs were made to give expendable grunts the temporary ability to stand up to chromed people. The chromer is less destructive to a person but far more expesnive to create, so the corp facilitiy gives it's guards a little toot to bring them up to speed. when they 'break down' they can be replaced.
Combat drugs were made to give expendable grunts the temporary ability to stand up to chromed people. The chromer is less destructive to a person but far more expesnive to create, so the corp facilitiy gives it's guards a little toot to bring them up to speed. when they 'break down' they can be replaced.
Keep in mind that SR, while being a gritty and dystopian world, is still a commercial product. For them to write up rules for modern drugs at all could draw some flack, and giving them benefits definitely would. Additionally, having a section on drugs that didn't play up the dangers could cause some concern.
While we're far beyond the "Tools of the Dev-Il" phase, RPGs still aren't quite mainstream. I can understand it if FanPro took a look at that and said "Yeah, we don't want to deal with that."*
That being said:
Marijuana having: Permanent Effects: Artistic skills +1 once per month of use [Charisma(6), +1 maximum total increase], Charisma +1 once per month use [Willpower(6), +1 maximum total increase]
completely screams "I do weed, and I think it makes me a better person." I'm assuming this is some attempt to put a general laid-back demeanor in to play, but I'm really thinking "No." I'm guessing that if you walk up to your Mr. J smelling of pot with a wide-eyed look, he's not going to give you a better deal on the run....
*Yes, I realize I'm making assumptions about what they did. It may just be that no one really looked the section over with a critical eye, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.
While we're far beyond the "Tools of the Dev-Il" phase, RPGs still aren't quite mainstream. I can understand it if FanPro took a look at that and said "Yeah, we don't want to deal with that."*
That being said:
Marijuana having: Permanent Effects: Artistic skills +1 once per month of use [Charisma(6), +1 maximum total increase], Charisma +1 once per month use [Willpower(6), +1 maximum total increase]
completely screams "I do weed, and I think it makes me a better person." I'm assuming this is some attempt to put a general laid-back demeanor in to play, but I'm really thinking "No." I'm guessing that if you walk up to your Mr. J smelling of pot with a wide-eyed look, he's not going to give you a better deal on the run....
*Yes, I realize I'm making assumptions about what they did. It may just be that no one really looked the section over with a critical eye, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Yet the world of drugs is kind of intrinsic to the plot of most Cyberpunk novels, I mean Neuromancer's entirely about a drug addict. Kind of an affront to turn your back on something so at the core of source material, like a fantasy genre game deciding "No magic swords".
even if you don't use, you should know what about. Look at the VtM rule books. they are pretty well loaded with language and pics that would make the far right livid. WW rode out the bs.
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| Keep in mind that SR, while being a gritty and dystopian world, is still a commercial product. For them to write up rules for modern drugs at all could draw some flack, and giving them benefits definitely would. Additionally, having a section on drugs that didn't play up the dangers could cause some concern. |
i dunno. SR4 definitely caters to an older crowd, i think. at least, if i were catering to the 10-13 age bracket, i'm old-fasioned enough that i wouldn't use the word "fuck".
I'm not suggesting that SR's audience is unable to deal with refernces to drugs. I'm suggesting that the people that freak out and start crusades are unable to deal with references to drugs in the game - just like I don't think it was DnD players that had issues with Demons in the Monster Manual... It's more than violence or magic swords - it's an hot-button issue in society today. For some reason, violence in RPGs has never caused a stir, but....
Maybe I'm just more cynical. And yeah, WW rode it out, but that was also their whole schtick. They used the publicity to their advantage. SR isn't *about* being drug runners or using drugs, really.
Not saying they made the right or wrong choice (again, if it really was a choice), just that I can completely see why you make that choice in the modern world. If you're ready for the controversy, you can ride it or use it. If it's just a small portion of your entire world view, it might be something you can sacrifice.
Maybe I'm just more cynical. And yeah, WW rode it out, but that was also their whole schtick. They used the publicity to their advantage. SR isn't *about* being drug runners or using drugs, really.
Not saying they made the right or wrong choice (again, if it really was a choice), just that I can completely see why you make that choice in the modern world. If you're ready for the controversy, you can ride it or use it. If it's just a small portion of your entire world view, it might be something you can sacrifice.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 21 2006, 06:17 AM) |
| i dunno. SR4 definitely caters to an older crowd, i think. at least, if i were catering to the 10-13 age bracket, i'm old-fasioned enough that i wouldn't use the word "fuck". |
Or talk about having sex with children in the Core Rulebook.
I disagree, but I read Heinlein as a child. YMMV.
~J
~J
yeah. i mean, compared to all the other stuff SR includes, i don't see why drugs would be a big issue.
They shouldn't be. FASA just extrapolated their drug effects from a bad DARE brochure. SR4 is more reasonable, somewhat.
The drug rules make no real sense given the way that drugs actually work and "combat drugs" are somewhere between unlikely and impossible, as presented. Stimulants don't work like wired reflexes in reality. However, it is a part of the genre.
The drug rules make no real sense given the way that drugs actually work and "combat drugs" are somewhere between unlikely and impossible, as presented. Stimulants don't work like wired reflexes in reality. However, it is a part of the genre.
It sounds like the tricky thing is constructing rules around their use. That still doesn't explain why they avoid addressing it just as a mood and background sort of thing.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| bad DARE brochure. |
You're being redundant.
~J
Ah, DARE. All so much wasted effort on me.
Drug Aquisition and Requisition Education.
What always pissed me off about DARE is how the commercials always had the kid in the denim jacket pushing coke and joints on like, 3rd graders. What the hell kind of 3rd grader can support a drug habit?
I'm not a chicken, you're a turkey!
I'm not a chicken, you're a turkey!
We need government subsidies for third graders too poor to buy their own coke.
~J
~J
Screw third graders, what about my being too poor to support my drug habit?
Well, then you should get off your lazy ass and earn money by doing some honest-to-goodness American work, like robbing a bank.
Hey, I have a job! I stand on a street corner and let people punch me in the stomach for 10 bucks a swing.
10 bucks a swing? Man, what a ripoff. Why pay money for punching someone when you can just go out and beat up an old lady for free?
Because sometimes they hit back? I have a detached retina.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.