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Frag-o Delux
Last night I was trying to break into a corporate retreat for the rich and weary. Well I thought I set off an alarm, and I knew where the security shack was. I figured I would try to peek into the security shack with Clairvoyance to see what was going on and maybe use Clairaudience, to hear what they were planning, so I could plan my next step. Well they had the shack protected with biofiber. The rule book just kept saying it stops astral bodies. I was willing to agree with the GM that a spell was considered an astral body but they have changed rules on magic a few times since we started in '89 smile.gif. Well we were not willing to just say biofiber stops it, and set a presidence that will up set the game later. So after a quick search with little results, we just decided to hold the game, and resume next week. It was getting late also. So what is everyones thoughts does biofiber stop clairvoyance? I haven't had a chance to do any research today but I will later, but I am also curious as to what everyone else's thoughts were on this subject.
Clairvoyance and Clairaudience move your point of vision/hearing to a new location within your current line-of-sight.

It would not let you see into a closed shack where you could not see anyway, but you could move your hearing up against the outside of the door or wall if you wanted to attempt to hear any noise coming through the door/walls.

If the shack had non-mirrored windows you could move your viewpoint to whatever point inside the shack you could see (you could move your point of hearing to the same point).

You could not, however, move your vision or hearing to the other side of a closed door that you could not see through, biofiber or not.
Frag-o Delux
Ok, that is a pointless spell, the way I always figured it would work is to let you see places you normally couldn't. The first definition I have heard in relation to clairvoyance is seeing the future, but since divining is a meta-magic, I assumed the second definition would be in use, which is seeing things beyond the normal senses, sort of like remote viewing, I guess that would be what astral projection is for. But if it is just magic binoculars, I think I'll have to find a new spell or create one. But thanks anyway, I guess I am hosed on this run.

What about ritual sendings, would biofiber block a ritual fireball or health spell? It has a rating so would it add to the target number for targeting, or offer a resistence to the spell?
It's not a pointless spell, toy can cast the spell at a corner and see around that corner with it. You just have to be able to see the point at which the clarivoyance takes effect.
There is no LOS requirement from the magician to the point at which Clairvoyance takes effect, nor to the things that are viewed by Clairvoyance.

Clairvoyance is a detection spell. For Detection Spells, the Subject of the spell is the one who receives the new sense, and is the one who must be within sight of the Caster or touched by the Caster at the time the spell is cast. Standard Clairvoyance requires the Caster to touch the Subject. One could design a Clairvoyance spell with tougher drain where the Caster can have LOS to the Subject, or one with lighter drain where the Subject has to be the Caster. Any touch or LOS requirement is automatically met when casting on yourself, without vision penalties even in the dark.

The sense lets the Subject "see" places that are normally out of sight. There is no requirement for LOS by the Caster or Subject to those places. Living beings in those places get to resist the spell with Willpower, and with enough successes they are not sensed by the Subject. It is quite possible for the Subject to sense some of the people in a room but not others.

I don't recall reading anything in the books to say whether Shielding or Spell Defense make it harder for a Detection Spell to operate. I judge this to be a decision each GM makes for their own campaign.

I have no idea how Biofiber affects all this.
OurTeam: That's how I've always adjudicated Claivoyance.
Frag-o Delux
The way I understood the spell, now I maybe a retarded monkey with a lobotamy, but I thought you could use the spell to see things in places you can't normally see upto MagicXForce in meters away. Say I am on one side of a door and I want to know how many goons are on the other side and what they are packing before I go bounding out into the hallway. Or if I was on a swat team I could find the perps with this spell and "see" where they are hiing when we to kick in the door. Now I still follow the rule that you can't cast spells through it. Really if all the spell was doing was extending your sight range why couldn't you cast a spell through it, were as in my version of the spell I can see that you can't cast a spell through the mental images you are receiving from the spell.

Am I totally of base?

OurTeam, if we are on the same page of reasoning, I think maybe biofiber would add its rating to the spell resistence. Where wards are described as opeque, maybe the biofiber would cloud your view because the more living material(force rating of the wall) in the walls means the harder it is to see throught it.
No, Frag-o, you're not off base. Clairvoyance does exactly what you describe except you're not guaranteed to see the perps, depending upon your successes and their Willpower rolls. You can not cast a spell at perps you only sense with Clairvoyance. The way you sense them does not meet any LOS requirement for other spells. This restriction is part of the spell description. SR3 p. 192.

Your thoughts on biofiber make sense to me.
Frag-o Delux
I know you can not cast spells through it and you are not guarenteed to see what you want(since you can not see my face I am trying to relay tis in a way that shows agreement not an atittude smile.gif when I try to agree with people I seem to type in a way that people assume I giving them atittude). In fact I thought I said in my last reply that I follow the rules that you can't cast spells through it.

Now am I getting the range right? This spell has always kind of made my head hurt while using it. Maybe I am suffering drain. But I play that the subject of the spell has to be in my LOS to recieve the spell, but that person can only see upto Magic X Force away. Say I as the mage cast clairvoyance on my self, then I start to look for my friend who is stuffed in the trunk of a car in a parking lot. Say now I walk into the parking lot, and he is in the car right at the front gate where I walk in. Bang he fails his resistance, and I spot him. Now say he is in the trunk of the car 37 meters away, now I have a magic rating of 6 and the spell is cast at force 6, meaning he is 1 meter out of range of me spotting him, so I have to sustain it and walk around looking for him.

Oh I just thought maybe in stead of the biofiber adding to the resistence of the spell, maybe it should add to the target number I need to hit to spot thigs. I feel it would reflect me trying to force my spell through the barrier, which would make it, in a way easier for the target to resist since I will get less success. What do you think of that?
John Campbell
The table at the top of SR3 p.192 gives a TN for detecting targets that are out of LoS of the caster using detection spells. I think that pretty well settles that question.
No problem on the attitude... I understand. Some people have misunderstood me, too. Long ago. In the past.

The range is right. Force x Magic for the standard Clairvoyance. You could design a Clairvoyance spell with Extended Range (10 x Force x Magic). A munchkin would take Extended-Range clairvoyance at Force 1.

The book Clairvoyance requires the spellcaster to touch the Subject, but if you want to play it using LOS that's fine with me.

All your notions for possible biofiber interference are fine. Think also about having it reduce the effective force of the Clairvoyance -- reducing both range of vision and making it easier to resist. All seem to be reasonable interpretations.
Frag-o Delux
Is it Touch? I am sure you are right, I have been up for about 30 hours now and I am sure I am wrong on the LOS thing. I have been considering making an extended range version of this spell and clairaudience also. But the force 1 thing is really munchkin, but isn't the spell resisted by willpower vs. force? Again I am sleep deprived.
John, the table at the top of SR3 p. 192 is for area-affect senses, not directional senses. This is described in MitS p. 50.

The TN for a directional sense (like sight) is 6.
The TN for an area sense (like detect enemies) is given on the table.
The TN for a non-directional, non-area sense (Combat Sense, Mindlink, Translate) is 4.

There are also a few that use the object-resistance table or Willpower for the TN.
Yes, Frag-o, the force 1 extended-range has trouble seeing people because of the easy resistance. But its great for finding the secret rooms, hidden stairways, computer center, shotgun under the counter, poker hand, or lonestar cars in the alley. And it only costs 1 karma to learn.
Frag-o Delux
I keep forgetting objects can't resist certain spells. Right? They can't?
Objects can't resist any spells. Affecting objects or Analyzing objects may be more difficult due to the Target Number requirements given in the Object Resistance (OR) table, the minimum Force required to affect an object (particularly hard for cars and barriers), and the requirement that you use a Physical spell (not Mana). But if you roll well enough with a high-enough force spell you achieve an affect. There is no resistance roll for an object.

For more on affecting objects, see Wreck (Object)
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