Just a short one, here, but we've got one character with a cyberarm who wants to have a built-in repair kit, sort of like a Swiss-Army Arm or having an R2 unit on your shoulder. It could be used for the Mechanical group as well as Hardware, having a decent asortment of microtools.
Now, the trick is trying to get a fair cost for this. It's basicly about 3000 worth of Kits, but carried in a very obious Cyberarm for roleplaying coolness rather than a toolbox. Seems pretty non-exploitive, so I'm down with this, but I need a fair cost in terms of capacity as well as cost.
Currently, I'm going with 5000Y and 5 Capacity (This is about half again what the kits would cost, while the capacity is on par with a large storage compartment) ... but I don't know if that quite works. Should it take more Cap? Less? Be pricier?
Anybody have a good suggestion?
Full Version: Help me houserule a Cyberarm.
I think something like 1k per Kit sounds about right, and I would just rule that it used up 1 Capacity per Kit. Nice round numbers and they seem fair enough to me.
Should imo use more capacity. Lots more, because mechanical tools aren't that small. 5 would probably be fine for electronics/hardware tools alone.
Btw: nice idea
.
Btw: nice idea
.
Thing is, a lot of the tools are micro-sized, and a fair number would serve duplicate purposes, making quite a bit of some of the various Kits superfluous.
Go Go Gadget Arm!
Actually thats a pretty cool item
Actually thats a pretty cool item
Which kits are you puting in the arm? to cover the whole mechanics group you need more than a leatherman
You've got your basic (crossover) tools
Hammer
pliers/wirecutter/stripper
Pry bar
Drill Driver, with bits and drills
Socket/spanner set, torque sensor would be usefull (could be part of drill driver)
soldering iron
laser torch. (this is not the same as a soldering iron.)
reciprocating saw
ect. & misc.
You want to cover specialized tools in the skills:
Aeronautics mechanic; Rivet gun, 5 diferent types of clamps. a couple diffenent crimp heads for hydraulics. (just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head)
Automotive mechanic; all of the above + the aeronautics stuff + the stuff I use to keep my wreck running in 2006; grease gun, tin snips, files, dremmel tool with bits, plastic mallet, ball pien hammer, 2.5 ton floor jack (cynder blocks
), lug wrench, Tap and die sets. bolt extractors, bolt cutters, sockets and box-end wrenches 5mm - 30mm, breakline wrenches, gasket scraper, tape meaure, 1/2 in drive torque wrence, 3/8 in. drive torque wrench, Sawzall, Multi meter (ac/dc voltage, ampherage, ohm meter) compression guage, vacumme guage/pump, feeler guage, micrometer, (that's pretty much all the stuff I can remember without getting out of my chair), oh, don't forget anything you'd use to install your sterio. Sometimes I use my wirefeed welder on my exhaust but you might count that as part of a facility. Then there are the supplies I keep on hand and would count as part of my kit; 5 different types of lube in a spray can, graphite lube, motor oil, gear oil, break fluid, powerstearing fluid, epoxy, JB weld, 3 different silicone gasket makers, Gorrilla glue, greas in a tub, grease in a tube, carb cleaner, break cleaner, hand cleaner, rags--lots of rags.
I didn't mention screwdrivers and nut drivers as well as allen wrenches and torx drivers, at different bit sizes and lengths from 2 in. to 2 feet long.
Don't think that I'm talking about a vehicle facility here. I can fit everything I'm talking about in the cab of my truck with the exception of the jack/blocks and the welder. About half the time I want to do a job I end up buying a tool.
you might figure that all of the nautical mechanic stuff would cross over to automotive mechanic until you consider some basic hull repair tools. Also you might include some basic autobody tools in the automotive kit. My next purchase will probably be a set of hand anvils for back yard autobody work.
Industrial mechanics. think of all the tools above but larger versions.
Personaly I don't think you could fit even one type of kit in two cyberarms even if they were troll sized arms. Then again there have been times I've been brokedown up in the mountains and fixed stuff enough to drive home with only a leatherman a socket set and a few supplies.
You've got your basic (crossover) tools
Hammer
pliers/wirecutter/stripper
Pry bar
Drill Driver, with bits and drills
Socket/spanner set, torque sensor would be usefull (could be part of drill driver)
soldering iron
laser torch. (this is not the same as a soldering iron.)
reciprocating saw
ect. & misc.
You want to cover specialized tools in the skills:
Aeronautics mechanic; Rivet gun, 5 diferent types of clamps. a couple diffenent crimp heads for hydraulics. (just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head)
Automotive mechanic; all of the above + the aeronautics stuff + the stuff I use to keep my wreck running in 2006; grease gun, tin snips, files, dremmel tool with bits, plastic mallet, ball pien hammer, 2.5 ton floor jack (cynder blocks
), lug wrench, Tap and die sets. bolt extractors, bolt cutters, sockets and box-end wrenches 5mm - 30mm, breakline wrenches, gasket scraper, tape meaure, 1/2 in drive torque wrence, 3/8 in. drive torque wrench, Sawzall, Multi meter (ac/dc voltage, ampherage, ohm meter) compression guage, vacumme guage/pump, feeler guage, micrometer, (that's pretty much all the stuff I can remember without getting out of my chair), oh, don't forget anything you'd use to install your sterio. Sometimes I use my wirefeed welder on my exhaust but you might count that as part of a facility. Then there are the supplies I keep on hand and would count as part of my kit; 5 different types of lube in a spray can, graphite lube, motor oil, gear oil, break fluid, powerstearing fluid, epoxy, JB weld, 3 different silicone gasket makers, Gorrilla glue, greas in a tub, grease in a tube, carb cleaner, break cleaner, hand cleaner, rags--lots of rags.I didn't mention screwdrivers and nut drivers as well as allen wrenches and torx drivers, at different bit sizes and lengths from 2 in. to 2 feet long.
Don't think that I'm talking about a vehicle facility here. I can fit everything I'm talking about in the cab of my truck with the exception of the jack/blocks and the welder. About half the time I want to do a job I end up buying a tool.
you might figure that all of the nautical mechanic stuff would cross over to automotive mechanic until you consider some basic hull repair tools. Also you might include some basic autobody tools in the automotive kit. My next purchase will probably be a set of hand anvils for back yard autobody work.
Industrial mechanics. think of all the tools above but larger versions.
Personaly I don't think you could fit even one type of kit in two cyberarms even if they were troll sized arms. Then again there have been times I've been brokedown up in the mountains and fixed stuff enough to drive home with only a leatherman a socket set and a few supplies.
The problem with the capacity numbers is that they don't work at all. I mean seriously, you can't put five fingertp compartments into a cyberhand - even an obvious one. What the fuck is that?
A much better rule is one with less rules, because the rules as stated don't work.
Here's a simplified one that works OK:
A realistic cyber arm can have one "big" item in it. An obvious cyberlimb can have an extra big item, and a leg can have an extra big item. A big item can be anything from a storage container to a cybergun to a hot chocolate dispenser.
Your proposed toolkit would be a big item. It's built in to a limb, so the whole thing costs more than normal - call it 4 times the original price and be done with it.
The capacity rules work for Cybereyes very well because the eyes themselves are of fixed dimensions and the objects inside them are "enhancements" that are essentially arbitrary in size. As soon as the capacity and equipment hits limbs - for which real size and distinct locations exist in a measurable fashion - the basic absurdity of it all makes my head explode.
You can have five finger tip compartments in a cyberhand. I know this, because there are five finger tips. Until the capacity rules reflect that basic fact of the universe I feel no compunction in ignoring them completely.
-Frank
A much better rule is one with less rules, because the rules as stated don't work.
Here's a simplified one that works OK:
A realistic cyber arm can have one "big" item in it. An obvious cyberlimb can have an extra big item, and a leg can have an extra big item. A big item can be anything from a storage container to a cybergun to a hot chocolate dispenser.
Your proposed toolkit would be a big item. It's built in to a limb, so the whole thing costs more than normal - call it 4 times the original price and be done with it.
The capacity rules work for Cybereyes very well because the eyes themselves are of fixed dimensions and the objects inside them are "enhancements" that are essentially arbitrary in size. As soon as the capacity and equipment hits limbs - for which real size and distinct locations exist in a measurable fashion - the basic absurdity of it all makes my head explode.
You can have five finger tip compartments in a cyberhand. I know this, because there are five finger tips. Until the capacity rules reflect that basic fact of the universe I feel no compunction in ignoring them completely.
-Frank
Well, i actually have a techwiz/rigger type with a cyberleg that he keeps his tools in. Just for holding. He uses them by hand, he doesnt try to kneecap the engine or anything 
In SR3, there were rules for built-in cyberdevices, and they were pretty costly...but in SR4 i think it dropped some. I never converted my character from 3 to 4 yet, so i am curious to see what people are coming up with here. I recall the capacity for basic kits wasnt too bad...he had three small ones in his leg holding(electronics/microtronics, computer, and auto.) We assumed the stuff was basic...small wrenches, etc...enough to make basic repairs.
But yes, kits in limbs=awesome
In SR3, there were rules for built-in cyberdevices, and they were pretty costly...but in SR4 i think it dropped some. I never converted my character from 3 to 4 yet, so i am curious to see what people are coming up with here. I recall the capacity for basic kits wasnt too bad...he had three small ones in his leg holding(electronics/microtronics, computer, and auto.) We assumed the stuff was basic...small wrenches, etc...enough to make basic repairs.
But yes, kits in limbs=awesome
Yah, i have to qualify my above post. I'm not saying the idea isn't awesome. I had an SR3 character "Wally Gimbal" that had built in tools and hands that he could switch out and the whole workx. I love the idea. I'm not even saying "it's too powerfull!" because mechanix skills have little effect on the game. My only point was I have a hard time imagining a way to fit everything I need to tune up my truck in a cyber arm.
I proposed a framework for allowing increases to cyberlimb capacity in this thread
I proposed a framework for allowing increases to cyberlimb capacity in this thread
hmm, makes me think of the cp2020 tool hand&foot 
hammer = hard striking surface basically. so use your fist
(its a metallic hand after all)
pliers, wirecutters and similar can be built into the side of the fingers. the basic difference between a stripper and a cutter is that a stripper have one cutter edge removed. should not be to hard to control via DNI i think.
drill driver could be wired or air driven by a power source in the limb. and the limb could also be used for bit storage.
spanners, maybe some kind of hand attachment, or just flatten the surface of the thumb and nearest finger so that you could just grip it like some human monkey wrench but i guess a powered variant could be nice for those seriously stuck ones.
in essence, the human hand and its ability to reshape can be made even more useful when redone in metal
hell, i can think of ways to build the drive unit of a reciprocating saw into the palm of the hand. or maybe just attach it to the tip of a finger (the others holding the soldeing iron and laser torch), and use hand and arm movement.
as for the bigger cutting jobs? we are all ready talking about something that have been driving saws for ages. and having it redone in metal and engines just makes it impossible to tire. so just grab that old hand saw and get sawing already!
there is a definitive risk of over engineering the solutions here
hammer = hard striking surface basically. so use your fist
(its a metallic hand after all)pliers, wirecutters and similar can be built into the side of the fingers. the basic difference between a stripper and a cutter is that a stripper have one cutter edge removed. should not be to hard to control via DNI i think.
drill driver could be wired or air driven by a power source in the limb. and the limb could also be used for bit storage.
spanners, maybe some kind of hand attachment, or just flatten the surface of the thumb and nearest finger so that you could just grip it like some human monkey wrench
but i guess a powered variant could be nice for those seriously stuck ones.in essence, the human hand and its ability to reshape can be made even more useful when redone in metal
hell, i can think of ways to build the drive unit of a reciprocating saw into the palm of the hand. or maybe just attach it to the tip of a finger (the others holding the soldeing iron and laser torch), and use hand and arm movement.
as for the bigger cutting jobs? we are all ready talking about something that have been driving saws for ages. and having it redone in metal and engines just makes it impossible to tire. so just grab that old hand saw and get sawing already!
there is a definitive risk of over engineering the solutions here
With a multihead attachment, a Dremel bit could handle a frightening amount of jobs, I'd think. Cutting, screwing/unscrewing, bolting/unbolting, possibly ratcheting, and wrenching, off the top of my head. Add in a laser welder/cutter for those hard-to-reach areas and you're doing faboo.
true, a demel is just another drill with the pistol grip removed.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Dec 1 2006, 03:09 PM) |
| true, a demel is just another drill with the pistol grip removed. |
that's so not true.
A dremmel uses a collet system to exchange bits that have two shaft sizes of 1/16 in. or 1/8 in.
most drills use a toothed chuck (often keyless) that have shaft size of potentialy infinite diameter usualy ranging from 3/64 through 3/8 of an inch
larger drills use larger chucks up to 5/8 in.
a dremmel uses the collet system because the rpm range of a dremmel tool is 500-15000 rpm. it has very little torque. A dremmel tool is not designed to drive a large keyless chuck--let alone a huge bit or socket at those speeds.
Drills have a more limmited rpm range. We use three different drill/drivers on the job. One has a range of 0-2500 rpm. We use it for puting medium size holes in things and driveing screws. One has a range of 0-750 rpm. It looks almost exactly the same as the first drill but it has more torque, (up to 45 lb/ft i think) and we use it for putting holes > 1/2 in. in things. The third is bigger, it has an entirely different type of chuck called and STS chuck which allows the bit to slide back and forth while it's driven in a circle, this is the hammer drill. We use it for putting holes in concrete. At home I use cordless versions of the first two.
We also use an electric impact wrench. it uses a 1/2 in. drive socket system.
My point is; maybe in 2070 there are motors capable of providing extremely broad torque ranges at varialble rpm from 0-15000 but that motor alone is going to take up some serious cf, not to mention the different anciliary systems you use to connect bits, tools and drivers.
It's true that the hand is the most versatile and well developed tool ever invented but;
I honnestly wish I could replace my hands with ones that had
hardened working surfaces,
improved griping power,
driver bits that would come out of the tips of my fingers,
fingernails that could cut wire,
a razor blade that would come out of my thumb,
A weighted hardened hammer head where the top knuckle of my little finger is,
a marking pencil in the tip of my middle finger,
a muti testor with leads that pull out from between my knuckles and a digital screen in the back of my hand,
a laser pointer range finder,
a gps accurate to two mm connected to my fingertip marking pencil,
files and micorplanes grafted on the backs of my knuckles,
a small oscilating saw blade attatched to the side of my hand,
compression driven chisels in other finger tips.
a small cold heat soldering iron... somewhere
a circuit tester in contact pads on my finger tips,
an MCU jack in my palm (for engine diagnostics)
one of those telescopeing antena looking thingy's with the magnet on the end for when i drop a bolt.
Ect. & Misc. adnausium
Oh; and I want pain cutouts So I don't have to feel it when I try to turn a nut off with my cold fingers, pick up a hot piece of mettal, get shocked by a hot leed, or pound my F!#"$!#ing thumb!
If I could go to the hospital and get something like that tomorrow I'd mortgage my house to do it. My wife would hate them, I wouldn't be able to run my fingers through her hair. But I'd do it because work would be so much more fun.
Mind you, even if I had those hands, I'd still have to carry three tool boxes and wear 25 lbs worth of tool belt because even those hands cant replace all the tools I need to do my job. In truth I'd settle for just the fingertip marking pencil. (HAH. try to borrow that one you pencil thieving priks!
)Also, don't forget that half the time we use tools on a job because our hand's/fingers won't reach or are just not configured properly. If I wanted to replace my tool belt and boxes I'd need somthing like the liquid mettal body from Terminator 2. [edit] I wonder how my wife would feel about that!
[/edit]
well color me corrected...
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| well color me corrected... |
no offence intended dude. I'm just saying it's not true today and I can't see how it could happen in 70 years.
what about miniwaldoes that come out of your tool arm. Put the heavier tools on the arm itself and have a set of support waldoes with lights, camera snakes, pinchers, etc.
Also, with miniturization and cyberware I could easily see cybernetically morphable tools. It wouldn't be liquid metal but it could apply pressure in small spaces and strange directions. Instead of having lots of tools you could have the ability to mimic lots of tools.
Also, with miniturization and cyberware I could easily see cybernetically morphable tools. It wouldn't be liquid metal but it could apply pressure in small spaces and strange directions. Instead of having lots of tools you could have the ability to mimic lots of tools.
that's true. there are some compounds with limited morphing capability piezioelectricsomthings that might be strong enough by then to make a universal spanner/hex socket.
dont foget to add telescopeing fingers too. So your screw bit finger can reach those narrow litte screws wayyy back underneath your intake manifold.
Also a wire brush. I am forever looking for my wire brush.
dont foget to add telescopeing fingers too. So your screw bit finger can reach those narrow litte screws wayyy back underneath your intake manifold.
Also a wire brush. I am forever looking for my wire brush.
How about having small crawlers that can crawl into an engine and have enough torque to get to a hard to reach screw? It wouldn't have to be microsized, just flexible in nonhuman ways. When it returns it could wrap itself around your hip or fold up wierdly.
Maybe a mounted drone that has lots of strong arms and is attached to the rafters. It could lift engines out and hold things in place.
Maybe a mounted drone that has lots of strong arms and is attached to the rafters. It could lift engines out and hold things in place.
| QUOTE (OneTrikPony) | ||
no offence intended dude. I'm just saying it's not true today and I can't see how it could happen in 70 years. |
none taken. i forgot to put a smiley into that post, that all
and i would have known the difference if i bothered to check as i have a family member that do mechanical stuff (among other things) as a hobby.
while i don't know much about torque (outside of it being a measure of rotational power) im guessing that one could in theory adjust the rotation speed based on gears or variable power input.
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