Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Beating Astral Security
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Arz
Recently ran into the problem of beating good astral security. I found no elegant way to beat astral security. This became compounded when I found that mage vs spirit = spirit wins. I digress.

Has anyone found a way to hold a spirit so that it doesn't report to its summoner? See, the summoner knows when they are eliminated and spirits are darn quick. Hackers can supress beaten IC and I'm feeling second rate.

Back to the spirit problem I touched on above. Mages need 3 good stats, a high astral combat, and a weapon focus just to keep up with his summoned opposition. Then your mage needs a decent infiltration if he ever hopes to get the drop on a spirit. All this sounds reasonable until you run across the crazed summoner who has force 6 and above palookas. You just can't statistically keep up.

Help!
Jaid
you stunbolt them, silly. what's all this astral combat nonsense?

if you're feeling really crazy, you might try summoning your own force 6 spirit, and having your spirit deal with theirs, in fact (probably don't want to bind it, but conjuring one should be no problem).

Chandon
Yea, the whole plan of "The opposition is summoning spirits, I'll obviously... not summon any" really isn't that good an idea.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Arz)
Has anyone found a way to hold a spirit so that it doesn't report to its summoner? See, the summoner knows when they are eliminated and spirits are darn quick. Hackers can supress beaten IC and I'm feeling second rate.

Taking a spirit out shouldn't really be the problem. Between spells, spirits, astral combat, high explosives, etc there should be SOME way to kill it.
But dealing with a spirit in such a way that a full alert isn't triggered is more the issue, I think.
Butterblume
That's not good astral security. It's outstanding.
deek
Don't forget the force of will attacks (from Street Magic). Granted, casting spells at the spirit or summoning one of your own are your two best bets. As for communication to the summoner...they have a telepathic link, so it is likely impossible to suppress that...
OneTrikPony
I'm a n00b but,

What about just useing infiltration to get past the spirit then using astral tracking find the mage then killing the mage directly?
Jack Kain
A mage can attack the spirit with mana spells. Can't you attempt to banish any spirit not just your own.

Distraction could work, summoning a watcher spirit to draw away the centry's attention while you go in. And seriously I can see mages astral projecting for fun just to fly around in astral space at high speed.
Garrowolf
I have a way of solving the problem if you are the GM of your game. If not then this will not help probably.

I changed them a bit:

Spirits are fully aware and have emotions. They are not automatons. They don't like to be treated badly and they don't like giving their lives for some caster that just called them up. If they are hurt in combat they have a chance of just backing off. Another binding roll may be required to force them to risk themselves further. They are more likely to try and defend someone then just attack blindly.

They are spirits of a wild and chaotic place (the astral and the metaplanes) so they don't tolerate boring orders easily. They will sit and watch over you but they won't patrol an area. This means that you don't have to worry about spirits acting as patrol most of the time.

They are a bit more powerful in several ways in my game but they are less of a generalized issue for most runners. They are more likely to be bodyguards for a caster then monsters called forth. There are plenty of other things that spirits can do which keeps them plenty useful. They are more likely now to use their powers then manifest and try and fight you.
Crusher Bob
The classic way of preventing the death of a spirit from alerting its summoner is to englobe the spirit with the mana/spirit barrier spell. Adding the house rule that spirits will not suicidally attack powerful barriers and you can stop anything by ally spirits (who can communicate telepathically with their masters) plus use metaplanar travel to get away. Normal spirits don't have either of these options, so they sit inside the barrier and twiddle their thumbs while you get on with the run.
Protagonist
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
I have a way of solving the problem if you are the GM of your game. If not then this will not help probably.

I changed them a bit:

Spirits are fully aware and have emotions. They are not automatons. They don't like to be treated badly and they don't like giving their lives for some caster that just called them up. If they are hurt in combat they have a chance of just backing off. Another binding roll may be required to force them to risk themselves further. They are more likely to try and defend someone then just attack blindly.

They are spirits of a wild and chaotic place (the astral and the metaplanes) so they don't tolerate boring orders easily. They will sit and watch over you but they won't patrol an area. This means that you don't have to worry about spirits acting as patrol most of the time.

They are a bit more powerful in several ways in my game but they are less of a generalized issue for most runners. They are more likely to be bodyguards for a caster then monsters called forth. There are plenty of other things that spirits can do which keeps them plenty useful. They are more likely now to use their powers then manifest and try and fight you.

Spirits are already not automatons. As far as I know, they're all fully aware as well. That's why when spirits are summoned, you are forcing your will onto them to get services out of 'em (or asking them for help, etc. depending on the magical tradition and such).

They are also not giving their lives for you. If their form is destroyed, they simply go back to their metaplane. An annoyance for them.

Gimping spirits like that is just lame, especially if you've spent to efoort to bind them. If you want them to resist summons further, they can spend edge on their opposed roll (I believe this is already suggested somewhere in the book if they're continually mistreated).

Arz
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
The classic way of preventing the death of a spirit from alerting its summoner is to englobe the spirit with the mana/spirit barrier spell. Adding the house rule that spirits will not suicidally attack powerful barriers and you can stop anything by ally spirits (who can communicate telepathically with their masters) plus use metaplanar travel to get away. Normal spirits don't have either of these options, so they sit inside the barrier and twiddle their thumbs while you get on with the run.

Thanks for these helpful suggestions. They still have some holes though.

All spells cause physical drain while astrally project/perceive-ing. Trying to sneak past the spirit would be ideal. However, unless the character is a dedicated infiltrator, not, a force 5 will spot you then thump you. Stunball causes physical damage in the astral and physical drain.

Anyone have more ideas on how to stop the spirit from reporting that don't involve killing it. Summoners know when their spirits die.

Back to spirit vs mage. My point here is that in previous eds this was a relatively fair fight slanted slightly towards the mage. 4th Ed makes this a fight you must avoid.
Jaid
QUOTE (Arz)
All spells cause physical drain while astrally project/perceive-ing. [...] Stunball causes physical damage in the astral and physical drain.

not in SR4.
Protagonist
QUOTE (Arz)
All spells cause physical drain while astrally project/perceive-ing.

I remember this being true in 3rd edition, but I couldn't find it in 4th. Where is it at? (it's been annoying me thoroughly)
Jaid
QUOTE (Protagonist)
QUOTE (Arz @ Dec 4 2006, 10:44 AM)
All spells cause physical drain while astrally project/perceive-ing.

I remember this being true in 3rd edition, but I couldn't find it in 4th. Where is it at? (it's been annoying me thoroughly)

as i indicated above, it isn't in SR4 anywhere. it went the way of non-unified magic theory.
Protagonist
QUOTE (Jaid)
as i indicated above

We posted close to the same time, so yours wasn't there when I was typing. I only saw it after the fact sleepy.gif
Tiger Eyes
You can have another spirit use the Confusion power on the guarding spirit... we've done that with good results.
Crusher Bob
You can also use the whole line of mental influence spells on spirits. Also, you can track down the summoner ahead of time and incapacitate them in some way. Of course, this assumes, for example, a wage who is not on shift at the time...
Serbitar
QUOTE (Arz)

Has anyone found a way to hold a spirit so that it doesn't report to its summoner?

Control Thoughts.
SCARed
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
The classic way of preventing the death of a spirit from alerting its summoner is to englobe the spirit with the mana/spirit barrier spell. Adding the house rule that spirits will not suicidally attack powerful barriers and you can stop anything by ally spirits (who can communicate telepathically with their masters) plus use metaplanar travel to get away. Normal spirits don't have either of these options, so they sit inside the barrier and twiddle their thumbs while you get on with the run.

i would disagree, that this is a good way of "sneaking past the spirit". hey, he has a telepatic link to his summoner. and spirits are not dumb (well, watchers left out *g*). he will contact his summoner faster than you can say "alert".

with watchers i found the chaos spell quite useful (at least with my GM). the stupid little things totally freaked out. we handled it that way, that if the modifier becomes greater than the mental attribut (here all are 1), the entitiy is stuck, overwhelmed by the sensoric overflow chaos creates. some sort of house-rule, but seemed ok for us.
Arz
QUOTE (Protagonist)
QUOTE (Arz @ Dec 4 2006, 10:44 AM)
All spells cause physical drain while astrally project/perceive-ing.

I remember this being true in 3rd edition, but I couldn't find it in 4th. Where is it at? (it's been annoying me thoroughly)

Nowhere. Jaid seems to be right. The only reason I am not saying _absolutely_ is the organization of the BBB is such a mess of page referencing. Props to Jaid though!

As to the mental manipulation spells, doesn't this use of them violate the spirit of spells may not effect spirits mentioned in the magic book? Don't have it in front of me to quote from. Again, a really good idea.

I think this covers most of the sorcery angles. How about other angles like conjuring methods for those restricted in their skills?
knasser

The only problem with mental manipulation spells to keep them quiet (and I agree it's the best way), is that you need to cast them at a pretty high force in order to stop the spirit shaking them off too quickly to be useful. And then you have the spell sustaining penalties to deal with unless you increase costs further in order to palm them off in some manner.

Perhaps on reflection, given that guarding spirits are often reasonably low force, the best policy is to have a bigger and meaner spirit of your own on orders to rough the guardian up but not finish him and never let him get away. That would probably work most of the time.
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (SCARed)

i would disagree, that this is a good way of "sneaking past the spirit". hey, he has a telepatic link to his summoner. and spirits are not dumb (well, watchers left out *g*). he will contact his summoner faster than you can say "alert".
...

Unless they've changed the rules, only ally spirits have a telepathic link to the summoner. The only thing the summoner knows about a normal spirit outside his immediate area is when it is disrupetd or he loses control of it in some other way (it completes its last service and goes home or someone uses conjuring to take control of it away from him).
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012