I had a discussion with my fellow players after playing our last session of SR. We got into it about how they hate it when GM's make players count ammo. I know I don't and basically I wonder whom actually counts ammo?

I did have an idea stemming from FFXII which is to buy an ammo type. It will cost the same as buying a lifestyle permenantly (ammo cost x 100). Basically, you would just buy that type and switch between both of them. I figure that will make it getting that ammo type a bit more difficult, but it will make it worth it.

what does everyone think?

Counting ammo is only really important on an actual run, where the amount you have on hand is limited.

Outside of that, most regular ammo types should probably just be covered by a monthly fee. After all, most gun bunnies are going to be spending time bustin' caps at the range set up in the burned-out movie theatre. I don't think there's a real need to micromanage just how many bullets Quik Rik goes through in practice.

Of course, extra-special ammo types (varies per individual GM) should definitely be treated a little less casually.

My group has always tracked ammo usage. This way when a character runs out of ammo in the middle of a gunfight he'll switch clips. It also limits the amount of specialty ammo used (ie APDS or EX-explosive). It's never been a major issue with my group and takes a minimal amount of time.

I don't really track normal ammo, and my GM doesn't seem to care at all (In fact, he's threatened that if I make him track it, he'll hurt me). But EXEX and the like, I keep track of.

its just that most games i have played the players and the gm just ignored it and i wasn't talking about a monthly fee for the ammo, but a permenant purchase of the ammo, hence the cost to be the ammo type multiply 100. I mean you would still get in trouble for having the ammo. I just figured it would be an alternative rules set for ammo when characters have to purchase it, especially during character creation.

I think that's a fine way of tracking the amount of ammo you own, at least for ammo types that your GM wants to be reasonably available.

However, I still think you should track the amount of ammo in your gun, and the amount of ammo on your person, during a shadowrun.

The initial post was a little vague about which of the above situations you intended for this abstraction to apply to.

i don't track ammo between runs, per se. once every few months i'll go "crap, ammo!" and deduct 600 rounds' worth or so from my characters' balances. i defintely track ammo during runs, of course, but running out was only ever an issue once.

My character is an ace marksman and often uses his monowhip for close range combat. Its rare for him to have to reload his machine pistols.
On runs he normally carries 3 clips of standard ammo 2 clips of EXEX and 2 clips to stick and shock.
Of course he could just keep a locked trunk in the armored van with enougth clips to arm a small army
18 regular
10 ExEx
–4 SnS

The thing about ammo is how fast it can go.
I'd frankly due it by weapon class
it be more expensive to get a life style of EXEX for your assault rifle then your rugar.
You go through 1 life style a month. Most gunbunnies go through more then 10 shots a month.
To be honest it really doesn't work well in my mind

it's not really a problem to keep track of ammo; I do it, both during the runs and in-between, my fellow players do it too, none of us feel that it is particularly demanding.
Of course, I use an Ares Alpha with EXEX ammo and frag grenades. I've run out of grenades once (don't ask…), even though I had brought six clips of those (that is, 36 grenades, yes), and the EX is 12F so not easy to find by myself (have to us the contacts, and they charge their finder's fee, and I use long bursts a lot… so it means a lot of expensive ammo to buy).

Last time I GM'd SR, FMJ (or lead flat-nose, as the case may be) for the main weapons was bought in rather large quantities and when they went training we just deduced a reasonable amount.

...tracking ammo during a run for is very important especially for my character KK since she uses Super Warhawks. At 6 rounds per load & 3 IPs per combat turn, it can run out pretty fast. This is why she uses dual revolvers and fires them in alternating fashion (gives her 4 Combat turns duration before having to reload). She usually carries an extra 18 rounds each of Gel and EXEX in Speed Loaders ready to go and has another 36 of each stashed in the car for reloading between gunfights.

Not tracking ammo on a run takes tension and exitement out of the game. I track each shot my pc makes. I always expected my players to track ammo on their characters religiously.

It's an honor system thing; behave honorably, track your ammo and expences or give me your character sheet, heres your free-kick-in-the-nuts, now get the hell out of my house.

Limited resources are part of the theem. Not tracking ammo and other expendables is almost as bad as "forgeting" to roll drain.

That's pretty much my opinion as well, but Ben specifically stated that he kept track of ammo both during and in-between runs, and did so easily. I was interested in just how far he took it.

We count ammo. Never really bothered us. It's more work than some folks want, but to us it's worth the payoff of a higher feeling of realism.

cool well thanks, i appreciate the different thoughts. well but than that is probably another reason why I should gm next time with players who know the universe a bit better, example: they made a deal with a dragon without even flinching.

Considering most practice should be done with regular ammo, I don't see it as terribly important to track.

I really couldn't see someone needing to use more than 50 rounds at practice, and I doubt they would need to practice more than 3 times a month to maintain their skill. My brother-in-law is a cop, and a pretty good shot with his pistol. He's required to go to the shooting range once a month, and his skill doesn't seem to suffer. How much does 150 rounds of regular ammo cost again?

Granted, someone trying to improve their skill would expend far more ammunition.

Erm, between 50 and 1000 rounds a day in practice, depending on what other skills you are working on and what your schedule looks like. (Also, how many different weapons you are working on).

Yeah, I gotta say 50 rounds is definately WAY too low for the average gun range. I used to go to one but had to stop since I got short on cash and I was usually going through 2-4 boxes of ammo on average every time I went depending on what I was doing (Indoor range so we were limited to .22 rifles and nothing heavier than .45 handguns)

Generally speaking a box holds 50 rounds so thats 100-200 rounds a night. And thats only going for a few hours maybe 3 times a week (And seeing definate improvement)

So if their just 'maintaining skills' I'd say minimum 100 rounds a week, for improving, depends really, but I'd at least make it 400/w min at that point. Maybe as high as 600/w depending.

It doenst really take much to maintain your skill with firearms, though it can take a fair bit to build it up past a certain point for some people. Others seem to just be able to handle it rather naturally.

We keep track of most ammo but that's because most of the ammo my players use is hard to replace; assault cannon, APDS, basically the illegal stuff.
If they just want to blow off a few hundred rounds of the regular stuff, I just assume they're rich enough (most have permanent High lifestyles) that legal, normal ammo can be considered part of their lifestyle.

Using 50 rounds at a pistol range is probably normal for maintaining the skill, if you go frequently... However if you're using any kind of automatic weapon you should multiply that by at least 10. If you're looking to improve your skill with an automatic you should go through ammo by the thousands. As already mentioned, any ammo expended in training would be regular, or maybe flechette. ALthough I think in 2070 you could get a significant amount of training VR. I'm not saying it would replace the real thing, but it would certainly be easier then having a membership at a gun club if you're SINless. And cheeper too. As far as including expenses in the lifestyle goes, I'd say anything middle lifestyle or higher you could include a gun club membership in the lifestyle. Automatic weapons or larger would need a high lifestyle. All the starting characters in my group start with low lifestyle, and upgrade to middle after about 10 or 20 runs when they have the experience to bring in a few extra nuyen during a run.

I don't usually bother tracking ammo at all. If the players aren't abusing it then I don't have any problems. If they start abusing it I might keep up with it more but they would have to really do something stupid for me to worry about it.

usually I only start paying attention when combat gets to round 6+. As that doesn't happen very often, it's usally not an issue, unless someone's firing lots of bursts. In my experience at least, SR combat doesn't usually last long enough for reloads to be necessary. Especailly since I allow players to pay extra for extended clips. As far as over all ammo, I just make 'em roll availability, then pay for a large chunk at once. usually not an issue unless it's hard to get stuff like APDS.