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Jack Kain
All these guys posting char critiques makes me want to join in. Dispite the fact that Lighting Jack is about seven runs into his existence. Its all for fun anyway. Besides I can get feed back on how i've spent Karma so far.

[ Spoiler ]
Jaid
6 karma to raise strength from 1 to 6?

you mind running that by me again?
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 3 2006, 09:31 PM)
6 karma to raise strength from 1 to 6?

you mind running that by me again?

The cost to raise an attribute in karma is the new rating times 3.
2 times 3 is six. Oh I see I wrote it down wrong on the back engineering section if you click the link and look at the sheet you'll see the strength if 2
Jaid
ah, ok, so you meant you raised strength *by* 1, costing 6 karma, but you only raised it to 2 nyahnyah.gif

yeah, that makes more sense.

hmmm... you know, i have to say... i find your choice of unlucky.... "interesting"... when added into the fact that you use monowhips nyahnyah.gif also, i'm curious why you boosted strength at all, since you don't seem to have a single skill point in it, and you don't deal damage based on it... and your previous 1(3) would have been plenty. too late now of course, but i'm just curious about it.

now then, i assume you're looking at where to go from here... i might suggest you pick up gymnastics for ranged dodging, personally. in fact, athletics in general might not be a bad idea, and stealth would be handy for a street sam too, which i gather is his main job.

along those lines, i would add a chameleon suit with thermal damping to his toys, personally.

i would consider skillwires just for utility (with that lousy edge, you don't suffer from not being able to use edge on it either). you should be able to get the best ones, and buy a skillsoft or two (might i suggest the previously mentioned stealth and athletics type skills? maybe even an alternate gun skill). and i'm guessing you plan on picking up armorer at some point? you don't appear to have the skill for it...
Jack Kain
oh thats odd, I left the armorer of that copy of it.
He has armorer 2+2(explosives)
I improved his strength incase he gets into a grappling contest so he at least has a good chance.
Skill Wires are high on the list of future cyber/bioware.
Concidering active softs only go to rating 4, I'll limit the skillwire to that rating.
Loading up some rating 4 infiltration would be nice.
(I'm fairly sure the active softs are for skills and not groups)
I'm reluctant to switch to the chameleon suit as it has a lower armor then my jacket. But then again, they have to see me coming and that might be kind of hard.

Maybe throw in the climbing active soft and some gecko gloves. Now that be some death from above.


When I took unlucky I was under the impression that you couldn't negate a critical glitch at all with edge. And I didn't fear a normal glitch. I also didn't understand how edge worked and how usefull it really is.

I don't think I'd put down the cash for other gun activesoft maybe 4 karma to have a rank in pistols.


I improved his strength after his last adventure. In my group karma isn't concidered spent until the start of the next session. So you have time to change your mind over the course of the week.

ElFenrir
Well, upping Strength, even tho 4 and three are same damage wise, sometimes its nice to be able to carry a lil more smile.gif

Yeah, Unlucky with the monowhip can be a doozy...but, well, disadvantages are just that--disadvantages.

Seems cool! so, is Sam more his direction, or Face? Or sort of 50/50? seems to have a pretty big array of skills, which is cool. I like how he's near 40, sort of more experienced type, and still alive to speak of it.
With that mad Agility, a Gymnastics skill would definately be handy. Would take care of any of his dodging needs. And i second a bit of a Infiltration skill...especially for a sam type.

Seems to have a lot of room to grow background-wise, he's pretty much starting with a new slate. Well, youve played him a bit, so i guess he's fleshing out for you more. smile.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Dec 3 2006, 11:21 PM)
Well, upping Strength, even tho 4 and three are same damage wise, sometimes its nice to be able to carry a lil more smile.gif

damage code has nothing to do with it. he's using a monowhip, which means his strength has no effect on damage codes at all. it was merely an observation that even if he was using something else, strength 3->4 would not be worth it.

and if he has strength 3, i would say that's enough for most shadowruns. you only need so much gear, and he was able to carry 30 kilograms of gear with no difficulty before (for any americans in the audience, that's around 66 pounds, give or take). i mean, seriously, he's a shadowrunner, not a piano mover...

[edit] to add on based on what i either didn't notice before or was edited in after, skillwires 5 are: a) not that much more expensive, in terms of either essence or cash. b) better not just in terms of hypothetically being able to run a rating 5 activesoft (which currently doesn't exist, as you noted), but can also run 2 more ratings worth of skillsofts.

and yes, you are correct that skillsofts are for skills and not groups, i was suggesting you buy multiple skillsofts to cover the group (or at least the most important ones).

the other advantage to skillsofts is that if you have someone else who takes them, you can swap software wink.gif [/edit]
Jack Kain
Yeah I love having a big array of skills, but still excelling in a few areas. Hes blown off more then a few doors with his demolitions team. Palmed his machine pistol and monowhip past secutiry. (he often keeps the monowhip on an armslide).

I probably increase his negotiation skill in the future but I'll leave the rest of the group behind.

A master of diplomacy classical, street and aggressive.(Negotiation with a machine pistol in one hand and monowhip in the other)
He loves to fight but conciders the greatest victory in a run to be going home with out anyone having died.

Quotes:
"Six of them, thats 3 for each of us. Not very fair them now is it." He said to the fulllbody armoed dwarf adept when the six gunless go-gangers closed in on them.
"Have no fear Lightning Jack is here... oh the fights over already. I'll go check on Brodie"
(my character missed the battle while he tended to the dying technomancer.)
Charon
It's perfectly legal, but I have always had a pet peeve against PC with STR 1 and Agility 6.

It's, well, complete cheese. Someone who moves fast and with great coordination is never also a couch potato who has trouble lifting his remote. In real life, that just doesn't happen. Just by virtue of training to maintain a high agility you will maintain your strenght at least at a decent level even if you never touch a bench press. But in a RPG when you are trying to squeeze some more efficiency from your chargen ressources, you see that all the time, in all systems.

I always felt that if there was a difference of more than 3 between your agility and your strenght, you are pushing the limits of credibility. Same with STR and BOD (or STR and CON in D20) for mage type.

I have yet to outright ban this kind of chargen character in my games, but usually subtle persuasion works with my players ("Strenght 1, Agility 6? Is this a real person or a loony tune character? 'cause these are the stats I'd assign to tweedy bird!") wink.gif

---

I'm also annoyed by things like Allergy (Silver). But that's just me ; as a GM I'm annoyed at a flaw that require me to sometime come up with silly situation that put the PC in semi-regular contact with silver for it to be worth its point. Addiction (Alcohol) is far more natural or the like is far more natural.

More cheesy though is getting 5 BP points for being scorched. Please. Your PC has no computer skill whatsoever. When will he ever get exposed to black IC? At least he has a datajack so there is a remote possibility, or perhaps the GM will join in the cheese in come up with a wacky scenario where your PC get forcefully fed BTLs.

But if he had a mild addiction to BTL instead of Allergy to silver as a werewolf wannabe we'd be talking seriously less cheese.

---

Edge 1? And Unlucky? That's a brave choice.

But I'm guessing you have a lenient GM because it's impossible to perform well with so little edge over a significant period of time when the GM sets up reasonable challenge and lets the dice fall where they may.

Even the craftiest and most careful PC will sometime simply roll poorly at a crucial time and unless the GM is kind enough to immediately provide another opportunity to save the situation, things will crash.

In my experience, edge 3 is about the minimum in order to perform well consistantly in a reasonably challenging adventure where the GM doesn't fudge or contrieve second chances.

Less than that and at worst you get killed while at best your are the one that usually FUBAR the plan for the whole team by failing an important roll early and being unable to recover.

---

The main problem I see with this PC is that he hasn't a very well defined function.

Which is actually OK in a tiny team. If you have a team of three, being reasonably good as a gunman and as faceman is quite a bargain for the operational efficiency of the team. Get a Hacker and a Mage and let's roll. In those circumstances, he is reasonably functional.

In a team of 5-6, however, the value of this PC drop sharply.

He's not nearly as good as a combat specialist, he's not a top notch faceman and he's not really a good jack-of-all-trade that can play back up in almost any situation either. On a large team, he's a waste of a team slot.

---

I just noticed : No Dodge!

No dodge, no edge... And yet he fights in close combat (Favored weapon are the whip and machine pistol).

Really, how the hell is he still alive after 7 session?!

---

The background is... Well, it explains everything but doesn't always make sense.

The traditional "Ares bought my company and now I'm out of a job" is a bit silly. What are you saying, that Ares bought this company for the purpose of closing it down? Obviously not. You missed a good occasion to explain why your character left or was fired. It can't be because he ain't competent (4) or because he was victim of cutbacks (he's a technical guy with 8 years on the job ; it's management and 'new hiree / almost reached pension' people that will get chopped down in a takeover). So it has to be something more personal and is exactly the kind of thing a SR background usually focus on.

And don't tell us he lost his job in demolition but then was transfered by the corp into security. They'd never do that! What silly ass company will transfer a trained demo guy into a new field he hasn't been trained to, and at a junior position at that? If they don't want you anymore, they don't want you period. Pack your bag and leave.

If he got a job working security, he did it by finding a position in another company (Good occasion to develop a grudge toward the first Corp that caused you to lose your cushy job, BTW).

Okay, skillwise, the guy works 8 year in Demolition and has a skill of 4 (quite reasonable).

But then he's out of a job and at the age of 27 he "discovers" automatics? At level 6, but he can't even shoot a pistol? Who are you kidding here?! It makes no sense whatsoever. If you wanted him to have automatics 6 it would have been better to send him in the army (An elf of 27 is still very young, could easily have done the Rangers and all that).

Especially since you tell us he was basically hired as a sec guard. These guys will train with a pistol before they'll train with automatics. Heck, they'll train with various stun weapons before they'll train with automatics. Because you of course start at low security post where guards carry a side-arm and a taser, not in Area 51 type of labs where everybody carries SMGs and shoot on sight.

Speaking of which, machine pistol ain't the most logical choice for a specialisation as a sec guard. If you purchased it as a runner, it makes sense, but a sec guard doesn't care about concealability! He'd carry a full SMG or Assault rifle, depending on the site. But you had 6 years as a runner in your background so let's assume that's where you picked it up.

And the VR training thing for monowhip... Wow. You really wanted to explain that skill, huh? At least you recognized that it wasn't a sec guard skill and seeked an outside explanation.

Here's a tip ; it's a runner's weapon (discrete and deadly) and your PC has been a runner for a few years. Just assume it's one of the skill of the trade he picked up in those years. Less embarassing than explaining he "found" a VR monowhip training program.

---

The murdered wife and corrupt judge is classic SR fare. Just don't say they were humanis, especially the Judge. No judge would pass the nomination process as a humanic policlub member. Use the Human Nation instead, they are more appropriate.

As for the destruction of the HQ as a revenge I think it's a bad idea for two reason.

First of all, you deprieve yourself of the opportunity of playing it out. Vengeance is classic stuff. If the Count of Monte Cristo was a PC, who would want to start his career after he has had his revenge!? No, you tell the GM you have some unfinished business and to plan something down the road along these line.

The other problem is that I assume that by saying the HQ exploded you imply that your PC did it himself (with support)? Unless the GM is very lenient, the HQ of an organization powerful enough to count amongst it member judges is going to be well hid and defended. So how will you explain that 6 years later you (presumably) have trouble accomplishing what you so casually described your PC doing 6 years ago?

As a rule of thumb, don't describe yourself doing amazing heroics in your background. Do it in your play time if you are able. If you succeed, it's fun. If you fail badly you don't have to explain the paradox of your apparently fading skills between the background and the gameplay.
Jack Kain
He's in a group of with.
One technomacner
one dwarf adept.
one combat mage
and formally a human hacker but the player can no longer join us due to work.
You'd hate to see what the dwarf did (charisma 1, Intuition 1, logic 1) He's just shy of brain dead.
Jack was created because the team need a face and I didn't want to be left out of combat.
The combat mage isn't there for ever session. The dwarf adept is well, more into melee then I.
My GM is to lazy to deal with bring up most disadvantages anyway. This is a guy who let me fence an aries chopper for 70% its market value. He allowed the rule to mark the price down 5% and add and extra die to be reversed to subtract a die roll and add 5%. Throw in the fact you can add the items availblity to the roll. And while I'd never allow such a thing. I wasn't about to argue.

As already stated the machine pistol was HIS weapon of chocie. And if you read his history HIS father taught him his skill in automatics. He's had that skill longer then the whip or demoltions.


The reason for the VR training in the whip is because, training with the physical whip would result in death until one was actually. SO I figure the weapon is designed to be trained in VR unless they have blunt monowhips out there.

Near as I can tell uncommon allergies are supposed to only come up uncommonly thats why the samples are gold, silver and seawater in a denver based campaign. (it is a denver based campaign by the way).

Half of that backround I made up as I was typing. I could have givin him incompent hacking like the sample street samurai, instead of scorched. He's often connected to his comlink to access his linqasofts a hacker could strike him then.
And older more joking version of his backround included he used to have some computer skills until the crash fried that section of his brain.


How is he still alive? You only use dodge when on full defense when dealing with ranged combat. A dodge of six won't help him if he wants to shoot during that turn. When in melee he can just parry with his weapon. When you just get shot at and aren't going full defense you still get your reaction.
Effective Reaction 7+Armor Jacket+Helmet+Body of 4+platelet factories. Thats how he's still alive.

Also in the backround is spending his life savings to have a shadowrunner team help get his
revenge.


I do however appreciate the critique of his background, as that is one area I was unusally lacking in. That above is just a rough draft.

My entire group only started playing shadowrun back in october. GM included.

I originaly though of placing the bioware and muscle toner and aug installation earlier in his life not long after it came onto the market. Because he suffered from I don't know some degeretive condition. The bioware allowed him to more fully develop his weak muscles.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (Charon)
It's perfectly legal, but I have always had a pet peeve against PC with STR 1 and Agility 6.

It's, well, complete cheese. Someone who moves fast and with great coordination is never also a couch potato who has trouble lifting his remote. In real life, that just doesn't happen. Just by virtue of training to maintain a high agility you will maintain your strenght at least at a decent level even if you never touch a bench press. But in a RPG when you are trying to squeeze some more efficiency from your chargen ressources, you see that all the time, in all systems.

I always felt that if there was a difference of more than 3 between your agility and your strenght, you are pushing the limits of credibility. Same with STR and BOD (or STR and CON in D20) for mage type.

I have yet to outright ban this kind of chargen character in my games, but usually subtle persuasion works with my players ("Strenght 1, Agility 6? Is this a real person or a loony tune character? 'cause these are the stats I'd assign to tweedy bird!") wink.gif

You're taking for granted that one has to train to get a high agility. The reason you can't picture anyone in real life that would be weak but agile is because we don't have people in the public eye who professionally get out of the way of things. There are a bunch of things that the game uses agility for that wouldn't build an ounce of muscle beyond lifting your own arm plus 5-8 lbs: palming, shooting ranged weapons, escape artist, forgery, infiltration, locksmith, archery (we're not using longbows more than likely). While many of these things CAN benefit from strength, the very act of doing most of them won't build any.

Also, since strength doesn't imply agility because there are guys who lift weights so much that they can't wipe their own asses, why force the issue the other way?
Jack Kain
Thank ya kindly Lovesmasher and now you may spawn some epic debate if he comes back to read it.
Lovesmasher
Eh, epic debate is kinda moot when people on both sides are sure they're right. I'm content to wallow in my self-assured cocky glow.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
Eh, epic debate is kinda moot when people on both sides are sure they're right. I'm content to wallow in my self-assured cocky glow.

You mean they have debates that aren't like that?
Fortune
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
You mean they have debates that aren't like that?

Yes, but not here. wink.gif
Charon
QUOTE (Lovesmasher @ Dec 4 2006, 04:36 AM)
You're taking for granted that one has to train to get a high agility. The reason you can't picture anyone in real life that would be weak but agile is because we don't have people in the public eye who professionally get out of the way of things.

Weak but agile would be someone with STR 2 and Agility 4.

Str 1 is nearly handicaped (Effective carrying capacity of 10 Kg!) while agility 6 is a martial art expert.

Am I taking for granted that you have to train to get high agility? Yes I am. And if you think otherwise, I can safely conclude that either you don't exercise a lot or that you do but are one of those deluded people who believe they are a natural and that their agility wouldn't decline if they stopped exercising.

Absolutely no one reach the peak of human ability naturally without training. No. One. There's no such thing in real life. And while it is possible to bulge with muscle and lose all limberness, it is impossible to move swiftly without minimal muscle tone. After all, you are asking of your muscle that they move you body mass efficiently. How can they do that if you are a weakling?

IMO, it's a gamer's conceit that you can compensate your lack of strenght by incredible agility. That's because most gamer realize they are out of shape (low STR) but in their fantasy world they believe themselve to be above average in their reflex and agility. They are of course deluded.

A skinny geek who never exercise but remained limber will swiftly discover that he is in fact drastically slower and less accurate in his movement than a fit man if he decides to take up martial arts. And that his agility will in fact increase drastically (along with his strenght) as he train. He will then be cured of his misconception that he was "naturally agile" before he started training seriously.
Fortune
If the range scale was 1 to 100, I would say you have a good point about extremes, but within the limited range that Shadowrun uses (1-6), I don't see it as being as big an issue.
Charon
As I said, I didn't houserule it.

I just mock any PC who come up with this spread and describe him as a loony tune PC. It works very well.

I'm such a bully.
Konsaki
I have to agree with Charon.
I would have problems with the character and ask the player to rework the stats, though I would still allow the character if the player didnt change anything... During the game though, normal everyday tasks would require attribute tests to see if the charcter is able to function properly in normal everyday life.

So 'Bob' has 1 strength, huh? Well, that door to your low lifestyle appartment has been jamming up due to cold weather rolling in rececntly. I need you to roll a strength 1 + Body 3 test to see if you can leave your own apartment.
What, you mean you only have 1 logic? Ok, well I guess you need to roll a logic 1 + will 3 test to ignore the guy in the alley waving you over...
Lovesmasher
But you didn't address any of the non-gymnastic uses of agility that are presented in the system that are completely valid real world examples of agility without strength. Locksmith is a really good example.
Lovesmasher
Because of the point buy system, if you're going to have any outstanding attribute, you MUST have at least one outstandingly bad stat. Admittedly, I try to keep everything at 2+, but when it comes down to it, I'm gonna drop that strength to 1 to get my logic to 7 for my hacker... and I did.
Charon
QUOTE (Lovesmasher @ Dec 4 2006, 05:42 AM)
But you didn't address any of the non-gymnastic uses of agility that are presented in the system that are completely valid real world examples of agility without strength. Locksmith is a really good example.

Yeah, but those gymnastic - Melee use to Agility are part of the attribute and so can't be ignored unless you split agility further into two skill.

But that's not really the point. In the end it is obvious that STR 1 AGI 6+ character exist not because of the legitimate concerns of locksmiths, but because many players want to squeeze more juice out of their 400 BP and are willing to come up with unlikely mix of attribute skills.

It always occur in what I'd call "goal oriented" PC as opposed to Background oriented ones.

It should be obvious to everyone, for example, that in this case Jack came up with the background AFTER he created the stats.

He wanted a character that achieved mostlty two objectives (Face and shooter) and in an effort to maximize these two function he trimmed everywhere else beyond all common sense. Which is hardly unique to Jack ; that's fairly standard behavior and this is far from the worst offender I've seen. It just used to drive me wild, though relentless mocking eventually shaped my group into crafting a good credible background first and matching the PC stats second.

As an aside, I feel STR, not BOD should be used to determine how much armor a PC can wear without penalty.

Do you believe we'd even have this discussion if it were the case?
Charon
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Dec 4 2006, 04:22 AM)
How is he still alive? You only use dodge when on full defense when dealing with ranged combat. A dodge of six won't help him if he wants to shoot during that turn. When in melee he can just parry with his weapon. When you just get shot at and aren't going full defense you still get your reaction.
Effective Reaction 7+Armor Jacket+Helmet+Body of 4+platelet factories. Thats how he's still alive.

Forgot to adress it ;

I'm not particularly vicious as a GM but some fight is inevitable and these stats would have gotten you shot down a few time if not outright killed in my current campaign.

7 reaction + Bod 4 and Body armor is fairly standard for a fighter. It's exactly what the gunslinger in my game has. Of course he has far more edge, a good dodge and more than 2 or 3 combat skills so that if the situation doesn't allow for automatics he has very good pistol to fall back on.

If you get in a serious firefight with opponents using automatics weapon, a long wide burst will leave you with only two dice to dodge. 4 if it was a short burst.

You'll get hit often enough, even if you are careful and use good cover.

The two main ways characters avoid damage in those situation are to either go in full defense or use edge.

When you have wired 2 and the GM isn't a mean bastard, most opponent will have fewer action pass so full defense is very practical. You can get full defense on all their attack and then shoot at them with your extra pass(es). And if you don't have more passes, well, full defense is still your best option if you are in a bad spot and you can reasonably expect your team mates to help you out very soon.

And edge, obviously, is the easiest way to avoid getting hit.

Neither of these options are available to your character. By the three most intense firefight I've run, I'm pretty sure he would have been gunned down fairly early if he were to go to the front. And not to go to the front with Wired II and automatics 6 is a gross waste of ressource so this PC is in kind of a bind.
ElFenrir
Couldn't you essentialy use Gymnastics for that situation? Ive read all over these forums you can use Full Def+Agility+Gymnastics in those cases of not having Dodge...

Jack Kain
Listen, when I made this guy I didn't fully understand the system. I didn't know how powerful edge really was.
I didn't know that you could take a full defense on the first inititve pass then end it on the second. I throught it was an entire round kind of thing. (actually I just learned the now as you told me).


But when will there be a situation that falls for a pistol rather then an automatic?
His choice for the machine pistol was for that very reason. It was a smaller kind of automatic.

If you were my GM, I'm sure you could have helped me make a more well rounded character. But when your in a fresh group with a GM just as new to shadowrun as you are. **** happends.


If I could make him again with what I know now I would have givin him far less specialization and some ranks in dodge or gymnastics. Maybe I would have only taken ranks in just negotiation and saved the extra BP for other things.

If she combat mage had been a shaman (or other charisma+will power) using spell caster. I could have devoted him fully to combat. Givin him a 3 strength. Kept his charisma lower, held of on the influence group and gave him those other skills.

As it would have it, I had to make my character on my own with out a GM who was experenced with the system. I had one charcter before a Troll swordmaster but he didn't add much to the group, and while he had dodge he lacked more then one IP, so it really didn't help him all thta much.

If I could even go back and spend the last 6 karma over again I'd put it into dodge(gunfire) gymnastics can't specialize in gunfire after all. Wait I spent the last six karma after the last adventure but before the next one on wensday. And in our group its not spent until the session starts.

But thanks for saying I wasn't the worst offender.
Charon
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Dec 4 2006, 11:18 AM)
But when will there be a situation that falls for a pistol rather then an automatic?
His choice for the machine pistol was for that very reason. It was a smaller kind of automatic.

Machine pistol is at +2 for the perception test on the concealability table.

Light pistols are at -2 and hold out at -4.

That's a difference of 4 and 6 dice.

So to answer your question, machine pistol are bit more discreet than SMG but far less than light pistol and hold out.

So if in your capacity as the Face of the team you attend some kind of social events where being obviously armed is not acceptable, you are far better off with a light pistol or hold out. And that's the Pistol skill.

I understand the rationale for using a more discreet automatic weapon but personnally I dislike the Machine pistol. If I need discretion, it doesn't make the cut. And if I feel the situation warrants a machine pistol, I might as well go bigger and go for the SMG or Assault rifle. It's like the middle ground I never want to use. Heavy pistols are the middle ground I'd rather use between firepower and discretion.
Jack Kain
Hmm concidering my GM, its not likly to come up. I know him and I know his style.
I also know that execcpt for a parahunt or two he's only been using the the posted missions on the shadowrun website. "The Grab", "An ounce of prevention."


Also a palming of 3 and and agility of 8 helps to get those weapons past.
Charon
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Dec 4 2006, 11:45 AM)
Also a palming of 3 and and agility of 8 helps to get those weapons past.

It sure does, but that's where giving your opponent a +2 instead of a -2 can cause some surprise and where a lack of edge prevent you from recovering.

Run some simulations on a probability calculator and you'll see what I mean. With typical guard who has 5 dice for a perception test, this makes the difference between win or a tie 96% of the time with a light pistol and only 82% with a machine pistol. I dare say that 1 in 5 risk of failure is no good. 1 in 20 (with little doubt that edge can save the day) is far better.

But of course if your GM won't have the security doing their job, you can get away with even more than that but that's another matter entirely.
Jack Kain
While my GM in shadowrun is good at making things fun and enjoyable. There are some things he's just not that good at.
And by come up, I mean my character having to attend some high class social event. The nearest thing was when he posed as a lawyer for part of run. But concidering it involved walking INTO a police station. He didn't go in with anyweapons.
ElFenrir
Well, character critiques are that...critiques. What works for some, might not work for another...and sometimes getting outside perspectives help one learn the rules...like learning about the Dodging rules, etc. It's impossible to know every rule when your new right off the bat.

I remember the first SR4 character i made was an SR3 character i remade. Man, i ran into problems with him. I was used to things being one way, and when i tried to do an exact conversion....it didnt work. I needed other skills i didnt take that you didnt need before(like Perception and Astral Combat), i needed to buy my mentor spirit, i needed slightly different stats(cha and willpower instead), i figured out that exact translations dont work, as the 'averages' were lower(IE, mathmatical things, like a Skillof 6 under SR3 rules translates to about a 4 in SR4 rules), skill groups, etc....but finally, i managed to learn enough to get a great SR4 version of him.

My second and subsequent characters went so much smoother after i learned more. I still make mistakes and i still forget important things, since i played SR3 from the time of its incarnation til one year ago and was used to those adjustments. WHich is why i usually will post a character to these forums to get the outside perspective.

Definately don't take the stuff as bad, take it as opinion and perhaps you might find stuff that works in there. smile.gif

You know, if you arent happy with something...you could always ask your GM if you could adjust minor things. That happened with us, when we played our first SR4 game. Since we learned many of the rules as we went...for the first few sessions we could adjust things a little bit, for example, not knowing we needed a skill for somethin we used to NOT need a skill for. (I recall my Adept, who was the first SR4 character i actually played extensively, not taking Astral Combat at first. In SR3, you used your regular combat skills in astral space. I was allowed to tweak that up.)

About your guy: I like the idea of a character thats good at more than one thing, nothing says you cant do that, im not too into the one trick ponies myself. I can see a few things that could be adjusted(like aformentioned gymnastics or dodge...just one is fine, i try to take one of the two these days), and i guess the Str1/Agl6 is a little odd for me too...but i also thing that if you have a 1 in a stat, it needs some explaining...just as much as you have a 6.

Im not a strong person myself, i have joint weaknesses and a compressed nerve in my left arm, and my work is generally not active(im a metal DJ, heavy karaoke host and ticket salesgirl). However, I have around a 2 STR by SR terms.

Forrest Gump is a bit slow, but id put him at Logic 2. He's not a complete idiot. Logic 1 is someone that is amazingly unlearned. Will 1 is someone who can't resist a dare to dodge a train. Body 1 is someone that has trouble getting up in the morning and is equivalent to someone who probably just recovered from a massive bout of bacterial meningitis that they almost died from.

Otherwise, I mean, i personally think Jack's cool and has something going for him. If youre happy, thats what counts. If you could remake him tonight, would you change anything? Add? Take away?
Ryu
Reaction 7 needs no dodge. Six karma for Dodge(Ranged Arms) will be a good way to puffer some risks, but it is in no way essential.

Street cred took a hit somehow? Should be three without mods.

Throwing (lobbed) I hate, we have it specialised per weapon class. Talk your GM into that, too.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
Listen, when I made this guy I didn't fully understand the system. I didn't know how powerful edge really was.
I didn't know that you could take a full defense on the first inititve pass then end it on the second. I throught it was an entire round kind of thing. (actually I just learned the now as you told me).

This is why I had one character for our first game and switched to a different one aftwerward. My 2nd has lucky and is human smile.gif Nothing quite like being able to throw down 8 extra dice 8 times per session. It covers for a lack pretty much anywhere else, though, to be honest, when I was battling the group's rigger (with 1 edge) for control of their network when we all first met, he was holding his own, but that may have been because I didn't really throw down.
Jack Kain
Now I did the same thing. BUT during the first adventure while I used the troll I also never found a use for edge so It didn't cross my mind when I made another one. Also not understanding edge was another issue.
lorechaser
QUOTE
Yeah, but those gymnastic - Melee use to Agility are part of the attribute and so can't be ignored unless you split agility further into two skill.


Which is a conceit of the system. You can't be a good sleight of hand artist, and not be a good marksman as well. Unless you play up that aspect of your character....

QUOTE

But that's not really the point.  In the end it is obvious that STR 1 AGI 6+ character exist not because of the legitimate concerns of locksmiths, but because many players want to squeeze more juice out of their 400 BP and are willing to come up with unlikely mix of attribute skills.


It does. And often, a 1 in a stat provides *more* rp than a 2 or 3.

1? He's spectacularly bad at something. It's a facet of his personality. It's an easy hook. 2 or 3? Eh, he's average, just like everyone else.

I guess I don't have a real issue with it, based on the system we're playing in. Some people will sacrifice effectiveness for story, some won't. Both are fine to me.

QUOTE

It always occur in what I'd call "goal oriented" PC as opposed to Background oriented ones.

It should be obvious to everyone, for example, that in this case Jack came up with the background AFTER he created the stats.   



He said that he did. Although I suspect it went "Background: Vague concept. Role: Defined. Stats: Created. Background: Filled in."

But so what? We're getting into the styles of gaming here. Jack plays a game to have fun. To him, being uneffective in combat in order to avoid a few oddnesses isn't fun. To me it isn't either. To you, it is. To each his own.... It's not like he took incompetent (Pilot Watercraft, Spellcasting, Compiling, Ritual Spellcasting, Binding, Assenssing, Astral Combat)....

He also purchased muscle augments and a suprathyroid to compensate. So he isn't a str 1 Runner. He's a str 3 Runner. Who didn't have to develop his strength, because technology did it for him....

QUOTE
As an aside, I feel STR, not BOD should be used to determine how much armor a PC can wear without penalty.

Do you believe we'd even have this discussion if it were the case?


All of the above being said, I agree with you there. But that would completely shift the dynamic. Body 3 would be minimum for everyone, realistically, and that hoses the mage that wants to be frail, but still survive....
lorechaser
QUOTE (ElFenrir)
Forrest Gump is a bit slow, but id put him at Logic 2. He's not a complete idiot. Logic 1 is someone that is amazingly unlearned. Will 1 is someone who can't resist a dare to dodge a train. Body 1 is someone that has trouble getting up in the morning and is equivalent to someone who probably just recovered from a massive bout of bacterial meningitis that they almost died from.

Eh.

2 is the new 3. There's a thread about that somewhere....

1 isn't borderline useless, or handicapped.

It's just 2 below the norm, which is 3.

Forrest Gump wouldn't be 2 - that's just one below average. And he's definitely more than slightly below average - he's pretty far under. Say, 1.

0 is really where you're at for things like invalids....

Logic 2 is the guy who laughs a few seconds after everyone, can't quite balance his checkbook, and buys a tip calculator because 15% is far more math then he can ever do. He can't wire up his VCR, because it just doesn't make sense.

1 is the guy that you tell the joke to again, and he just shrugs. He leaves $20 for any meal in the $12-$18 range, because, well, math. He had to have someone set his alarm clock for him.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (ElFenrir)
Otherwise, I mean, i personally think Jack's cool and has something going for him. If youre happy, thats what counts. If you could remake him tonight, would you change anything? Add? Take away?

Well If I could remake him I'd likly only give him as specialization in machine pistols and use the BP from the various other specializations for ranks in dodge or gymnastics.

Then perhaps only take 1 rank in the influence group and just raise the negotiation to 4. That would have saved about 18 BP I could have used for a couple ranks in dodge and a point into edge or strength. His main purpose is to negotiate and bargan anyway.
I'd dump is armorer skill which isn't actually on that copy of the charater up there. That would have gotten me 4 BP plus 2 BP for the specialization.

Concidering I now know I can take a full defense for my first IP then attack freely for the next 2 I might drop the body to 3 and add that to edge. Then go for a line coat or chameleon suit for my armor. Try and work in a single rank of inflitration while I was at it
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