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twilite
My search fu is weak, but I couldn't find any mention of this:

1) Can a binding focus be used in the Invoking test? The BBB says it is added to Magic + Binding when binding spirits, while the Street Magic description of Invoking has its own Invoking test after a Binding test, but which also uses Magic + Binding. I think by RAW it can't be used, and it's probably just as well because it would make more powerful Great Form spirits, but I thought I would ask for opinions.

2) On the Invoking table on p. 57 it lists a lot of powers linked to results. Do you get all the powers and below or just the described powers if you get a certain number of hits? If you only get the power at the exact number of hits, that really is not very nice- you would have to get exactly the right number of hits to get anything specific, like the Great Form Power for that spirit type. That's what it seems to be saying though, because there is no mention of getting the results below yours.
Ophis
2) You get everything from for the hits you got and the previous stuff on the table.
knasser
QUOTE (twilite)
My search fu is weak, but I couldn't find any mention of this:

1) Can a binding focus be used in the Invoking test? The BBB says it is added to Magic + Binding when binding spirits, while the Street Magic description of Invoking has its own Invoking test after a Binding test, but which also uses Magic + Binding. I think by RAW it can't be used, and it's probably just as well because it would make more powerful Great Form spirits, but I thought I would ask for opinions.

2) On the Invoking table on p. 57 it lists a lot of powers linked to results. Do you get all the powers and below or just the described powers if you get a certain number of hits? If you only get the power at the exact number of hits, that really is not very nice- you would have to get exactly the right number of hits to get anything specific, like the Great Form Power for that spirit type. That's what it seems to be saying though, because there is no mention of getting the results below yours.


In reverse order: 2) Yes, you get up to and including on the hits table. Got yourself 7 hits? Go have fun. wink.gif

1) I would say not.
QUOTE (SR4. pg.191)
Binding foci add their Force to the magicianís Magic +  Binding dice pool when binding an appropriate type of spirit or the extra dice may be withheld to help resist Drain.


You can use them in the first part of the Invoking process which is a normal binding, and thus keep your mage fresh for the second part, but the invoking does not, RAW, qualify as a binding ritual itself. It just uses similar attributes and mechanics.

If you interpret it differently, you're going to see more powerful Great Forms running around on your player's errands.

As an aside, one thing that I really like about the Invoking rules is the way that the bigger the spirit, the more likely you are to get a great form, with the corollary that it's going to be harder to control.
FrankTrollman
Invoking uses Magic + Binding as its dicepool. Binding Foci add to Binding + Magic rolls with the appropriate spirit. Of Course the Binding Focus applies.

Remember, Power Foci apply regardless so nothing will particularly reduce the dicepools in the abstract sense. Restricting Binding Foci from Invoking tests would just increase the amount by which Power Foci were more awesome than other Foci, and nothing more.

QUOTE
As an aside, one thing that I really like about the Invoking rules is the way that the bigger the spirit, the more likely you are to get a great form, with the corollary that it's going to be harder to control.


Thanks.

-Frank
knasser
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Dec 6 2006, 12:43 PM)
Invoking uses Magic + Binding as its dicepool. Binding Foci add to Binding + Magic rolls with the appropriate spirit. Of Course the Binding Focus applies.


Hardly 'of course.' That may be your opinion, but in addition to my quote earlier, which states that Binding Focus apply only to binding tests, the Invoking metamagic section says that invoking consists of a binding test, followed by an invoking test.

QUOTE (SM @ pg. 57)

If the ritual succeeds, the initiate immediately takes a Complex Action and makes an Invoking Test, rolling Magic+Binding.


Now it uses the same dice pool, which is the closest you can get I should think without actually creating a new invoking skill, but it doesn't say that it's a invoking test, distinguished from the previous binding test, and I think the most accurate intepretation of RAW is that it the focus will not apply to the latter.

Now if someone wants to have it differently in their own game, then no problem. But I think RAW says not which was the original question.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (knasser)
which states that Binding Focus apply only to binding tests

So what is a "binding test"? Is it a test done with the purpose of binding, or is it any test using the binding skill?
knasser
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (knasser @ Dec 6 2006, 01:12 PM)
which states that Binding Focus apply only to binding tests

So what is a "binding test"? Is it a test done with the purpose of binding, or is it any test using the binding skill?


Well in SR4 core rules, it would only apply to binding a spirit, as stated under the description for the Binding skill. SM has added a use for it with Invoking, but regardless of what it is or isn't, the Invoking test is distinguished from the Binding test as in the quote above.
Fortune
I am not arguing either way on the matter, but precedent has been kind of set though, in that a Spellcasting Focus can be used on any test involving the Spellcasting Skill, and a Power Focus applies to all tests that include the Magic Attribute.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
That may be your opinion,


Yes. It's my opinion. I wrote the Invoking rules, I think my opinion carries a little bit of weight.

Any test that uses the Binding skill is a binding test. Similarly, any test that uses the Gymnastics skill is a Gymnastics test (and an Athletics test if it comes to that). So, for example, if you are using Gymnastic Dodge, you roll your "Defense Roll", which is Reaction + Gymnastics + Modifiers, but it is also a Gymnastics test. So an Adept with Improved Ability: Gymnastics would roll more dice. A character with a Synthacardium would also roll more dice, and so on and so forth.

Yes, it's an Invoking Test because you're invoking something. And any modifiers that apply directly to Invoking tests would apply to that. But it's also a Binding Test, and a Magic test.

The fact that your fire engine is big does not mean that it isn't red.

-Frank
knasser
QUOTE (Fortune)
I am not arguing either way on the matter, but precedent has been kind of set though, in that a Spellcasting Focus can be used on any test involving the Spellcasting Skill, and a Power Focus applies to all tests that include the Magic Attribute.


That's a very interesting point on the Spellcasting focus. I'll revise my opinion to RAW being ambiguous.

Given that characters who want one will inevitably end up with a Force 5+ or higher Binding focus, I'll only say that a GM should consider whether he wants to corresponding ease in invoking to result or not. I say this without value judgement - it depends on preference for power & magic level. An extra couple of hits on the invoking roll can get you some very nice extra powers. In the hands of a more powerful caster who uses an edge re-roll as well, it pushes you straight to the 'run out of toys, just give it higher attributes' level.

It's not a game breaker by any means, but it can be pretty darn nice and you'll likely see more great forms running round.
knasser
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE
That may be your opinion,


Yes. It's my opinion. I wrote the Invoking rules, I think my opinion carries a little bit of weight.


I suggested a game of strip poker at a family dinner when I meant to say stud poker. As my mortal embarrasment can now bear witness, intent does not always line up with what we actually have said. wink.gif And who knows - it passed through the editors so maybe they think that's the way it should work and who's to say which opinion carries the most weight? smile.gif

Anyway, we've overlapped in posting and I've already explained my argument so I wont rehash it here.

But as I'm talking to the one who wrote the rules, I'll just add that the force of the spirit adding to the invoking test plays really really well. Really good idea!

Cheers,

-K.
Synner
QUOTE (knasser @ Dec 6 2006, 09:13 PM)
And who knows - it passed through the editors so maybe they think that's the way it should work and who's to say which opinion carries the most weight? :)

But as I'm talking to the one who wrote the rules, I'll just add that the force of the spirit adding to the invoking test plays really really well. Really good idea!

As the writer of the rest of the Metamagics material and the editor in question, all I can say is that though Frank and I didn't always see eye to eye, on Invoking we were in full agreement - his reading of the rule is correct.
Lividicus
if i have 5 hits do i get all the abilities through 5 or just the one listed under 5 hits?
Synner
QUOTE (Lividicus @ Dec 7 2006, 01:44 AM)
if i have 5 hits do i get all the abilities through 5 or just the one listed under 5 hits?

Hit effects are cumulative.
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