As a complement to the Karma Level thread and in the interest of determining some of the baselines among the community, I'm posting this thread.
Yes, I know runs have varying payscales and Karma handouts and that different groups play with different regularities... but for the purpose of this poll assume a single moderately difficult life-risking run, nothing too epic, rather something such as a megacorporate executive extraction, a run on a secure R&D facility or cleaning out the hive in Queen Euphoria. Something that takes at least a couple of sessions to complete.
Also note the purpose of the exercise is to detemine Karma per run and not per gaming session.
Full Version: Karma Handouts
I think you shoulda started with a 1-3 there. 
I know alot of games where 3 is average. Personally, we end up with 4 to 5 per gaming session.
However, I HAD to vote per gaming session here because runs are once in a blue moon in our gaming world. We run campaigns which never seem to have an ending, one game leading straight into another. Can't recall my last 'shadowrun' into a corp type building really, though that too would be per-game I think. I think people who really play tend to find that those kinda runs would get very very boring after about 50 karma worth of gaming. Campaigns are stories that just never have an ending really. And only once in the past year or so has my character really had a chance to 'sit down and breathe a bit'. So, in reality, I suppose my last 'run' was closer to 120 karma.
Sphynx
I know alot of games where 3 is average. Personally, we end up with 4 to 5 per gaming session. However, I HAD to vote per gaming session here because runs are once in a blue moon in our gaming world. We run campaigns which never seem to have an ending, one game leading straight into another. Can't recall my last 'shadowrun' into a corp type building really, though that too would be per-game I think. I think people who really play tend to find that those kinda runs would get very very boring after about 50 karma worth of gaming. Campaigns are stories that just never have an ending really. And only once in the past year or so has my character really had a chance to 'sit down and breathe a bit'. So, in reality, I suppose my last 'run' was closer to 120 karma.
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Sphynx @ Oct 27 2003, 10:12 AM) |
| I think you shoulda started with a 1-3 there. I know alot of games where 3 is average. Personally, we end up with 4 to 5 per gaming session. |
Since I was specifically requesting for people to post hand outs per adventure and I have never seen a multi-session adventure paying less than 4 (and don't think it's possible), I didn't see much point.
In the case of people like you play freeform campaigns, I believe there must be definite "chapters" or climaxes where a part of the campaign gets some closure. One such "chapter" would do for the purposes of this exercise. Going somewhere, doing something and coming back whether it serves .
I'll just offer the following comments on your thoughts about "standard" shadowruns, if there is such a thing, because my experience as an SR GM in the past 11 years proves you wrong. How boring things get is up to your GM. One team I GMed for just pulled "impossible extractions" for the better part of a RL year, no other types of run at all and they loved it. Furthermore it all depends on how you weave things together. Brainscan features what at first sight are a bunch of standard corporate runs (all with their own unique twists). I tweaked it so much that my players had no idea I was running Brainscan until Overwatch stepped in. To them it simply felt like their careers were going particularly well...
I tend to give out about double the standard per run, but that's because we play so infrequently. One of my players has been playing a mage for the past 8 years of real time, and he's still only earned about 150 karma. It's really hard to see any character growth when you play, at most once a month, and only get 3 or 4 karma. Also, I tend to give out karma at the end of each session, as opposed to each run. We just don't know how long it's going to be until our next game.
Back when I was in highschool and college, it was easy to get people together frequently to run games. But now, everyone has jobs and families, so we game infrequently, at best.
However, for those of you lucky enough to run a game every week or so, I would think 3 to 4 karma should be plenty. That alone would put you closing on the 200 mark after a year of gaming....IF your character survived that long.
Back when I was in highschool and college, it was easy to get people together frequently to run games. But now, everyone has jobs and families, so we game infrequently, at best.
However, for those of you lucky enough to run a game every week or so, I would think 3 to 4 karma should be plenty. That alone would put you closing on the 200 mark after a year of gaming....IF your character survived that long.
we play a free form campaign style mostly, and yeah, we include chapter breaks.
but the game sessions are only about 2.5 to 3 hours long (7.30 to 1030) cos of commitments and travel time. So it takes us a LOONG time to get anything done. Plus the players like to research EVERYthing, then they faff and get caught up in roleplaying, which also slows it down some more.
but the game sessions are only about 2.5 to 3 hours long (7.30 to 1030) cos of commitments and travel time. So it takes us a LOONG time to get anything done. Plus the players like to research EVERYthing, then they faff and get caught up in roleplaying, which also slows it down some more.
@ Synner:
I actually do miss the 1-3 point option => I couldn't vote.
As to why: I do not award karma per gaming session, but per completed run. If that run happens to be multi-sessioned that doesn't change too much. I'm however more inclined to award individual karma in such cases.
But my average actually is 2-3 karma ... 2 for survival and succesful completion (1 if the run is not successfully completed) and 1 of the possible individual awards (on average) ...
I actually do miss the 1-3 point option => I couldn't vote.
As to why: I do not award karma per gaming session, but per completed run. If that run happens to be multi-sessioned that doesn't change too much. I'm however more inclined to award individual karma in such cases.
But my average actually is 2-3 karma ... 2 for survival and succesful completion (1 if the run is not successfully completed) and 1 of the possible individual awards (on average) ...
It varies.
The last run took 2 sessions, a lot of planning and leg work and they brought it off flawlessly. They got 8 karma.
The one before took 4 sessions, involved 5 different fights, an ambush, border crossings, terrorists, snipers, random harrassment by NAN cops, and a brilliant last second move by one of the players to save all their lives. They got 11.
The last run took 2 sessions, a lot of planning and leg work and they brought it off flawlessly. They got 8 karma.
The one before took 4 sessions, involved 5 different fights, an ambush, border crossings, terrorists, snipers, random harrassment by NAN cops, and a brilliant last second move by one of the players to save all their lives. They got 11.
I tend to hand out about 4 to 6 per run (and if I get a player who just makes the game session a great time for everyone, I give out more to him or her).
When I did the bulk of my playing in college, we would usually play for 8 to 12 hours in one session, but those days are over. For those sessions, we would usually give out 6-8.
When I did the bulk of my playing in college, we would usually play for 8 to 12 hours in one session, but those days are over. For those sessions, we would usually give out 6-8.
| QUOTE (Cochise @ Oct 27 2003, 05:05 PM) |
| I'm however more inclined to award individual karma in such cases. |
Cochise - I'm sorry I didn't make it clear I meant overall karma rewards for a multi-session run, which were intended to include the individual karma awards as part of the total average handout.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Cochise - I'm sorry I didn't make it clear I meant overall karma rewards for a multi-session run, which were intended to include the individual karma awards as part of the total average handout. |
I'm aware of what you meant, but that doesn't change my answer ...
My players usually only receive 1 point individual karma on average. Simply because in most cases each individual player only qualifies for one of the 7 criteria for individual karma.
So usually it's only one player who gets the "Humor" / "Drama" award. Another one receives the "Guts" award ... and so on ...
So far none of them felt uncomfortable with that ...
In single session runs they are even likelier to come up empty on the individual karma section ....
We get about 5 or so per run. We also have up to three runs per night (but only if we have the time). We tend to play for about 7 or 8 hours.
...cochise, you don't give karma for the run itself?
@ mfb ...
*erm* I said that a run will usually give 1 to 2 karma (survival and successful completion *provided that it really is successfully completed*) ...
The I said that on average my individual players do qualify for one of the seven individual karma awards (1 point being the average there) =>
2 +1 = 3 on average ...
*erm* I said that a run will usually give 1 to 2 karma (survival and successful completion *provided that it really is successfully completed*) ...
The I said that on average my individual players do qualify for one of the seven individual karma awards (1 point being the average there) =>
2 +1 = 3 on average ...
| QUOTE (Barracuda_Kali) |
| We get about 5 per run. We have up to three runs per night. We play 7 or 8 hours. |
Our GMs award 3 or 4 Karma for 7 or 8 hours. We feel this matches the approximate Karma award rate of common published (book) adventures. I read on another thread where someone receives 1 to 2 Karma per hour in their games.
I hand out karma after each session. One for playing, any other karma they get is related to good ideas, good handling of a situation, good roleplaying, and achievement of critical goals. But I do this per session, so depending on how long the players take to work through an entire storyline; one storyline usually taking up a couple of months of real time, gaming once a week, for about 5 hours, having multiple sub-goals.
| QUOTE (Barracuda_Kali) |
| We get about 5 or so per run. We also have up to three runs per night (but only if we have the time). We tend to play for about 7 or 8 hours. |
How does that work? You don't game downtime, or are the runs incredibly short and small, without any legwork?
| QUOTE (DV8 @ Oct 28 2003, 03:41 AM) | ||
How does that work? You don't game downtime, or are the runs incredibly short and small, without any legwork? |
We game downtime - in fact, most of it is downtime. Usually a run takes about 5 to 10 minutes (30 minutes if there's a shootout), and we spend the time leading up to it planning it and preparing for it. Buying ammo, getting layouts, printing up stacks of paper, meeting contacts, and so on.
Aftert that, the run either goes good or bad, and if it goes good, we're usually well-organized enough to pull it off, and if it goes bad, we pull out (even so, we still manage to accomplish at least enough of the goal to get by).
I'm guessing that once "business" picks up, the runs'll get worse, but until then, the planning stage seems to work wonders. Usually we only have one or two - I say up to three because that's how it worked out two weeks ago. Some sort, easy jobs. We're also starting out a hundred karma short (BeCKS - 325 instead of 425), as we feel it gives the characters a chance to fall into their roles. Karma gain will slow down once we hit the 425 mark.
Well, strictly speaking legwork and logistics aren't downtime. They're an integral part of a run, without them you're almost certainly dead in the water.
Yeah, that's how I read it, too, Syn. But I understand now.
I've noticed that most karma awards come from roleplaying downtime. I figured that since, as a GM, you can't cater to the background of every character at once when preparing a plotline, some of the players will use the downtime of their players to do most of their personal story-building. Because they are more motivated they deliver some outstanding roleplaying during those instances. Which is not to say that they do a bad job when on the job, of course.
I've noticed that most karma awards come from roleplaying downtime. I figured that since, as a GM, you can't cater to the background of every character at once when preparing a plotline, some of the players will use the downtime of their players to do most of their personal story-building. Because they are more motivated they deliver some outstanding roleplaying during those instances. Which is not to say that they do a bad job when on the job, of course.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Well, strictly speaking legwork and logistics aren't downtime. They're an integral part of a run, without them you're almost certainly dead in the water. |
Ah, but most of that boils down to one person doing work while the rest of us goof off, hang out, or bond. We rotate that aspect, though.
Legwork within our group is usually twice as dangerous, requiring twice as much concentration than the actual 20 minutes of action that results from that is. Dealing with contacts implicitely means exposure to parts of your plans, and if someone can piece together what you're planning - wether it an incursion on extrateritorial ground to kidnap someone, assassinate a foreign minister, hijack a truck full of gunparts on their way to a Weapons World assembly facility for the Vory - you are in deep, deep shit.
I second that. My players have learned never to do legwork without backup on hand and to be really careful with what they say especially if not all their contacts are busom buddies.
Legwork? What legwork?
All my players do is keep running away from the hundred and one thousand bad guys that keep dogging their heels, hunting them down for no apparent reason.
All my players do is keep running away from the hundred and one thousand bad guys that keep dogging their heels, hunting them down for no apparent reason.
I'd have to say the average is about 8 or 9 per run. The only time this changes is when I have multiple chapters within a large run, like the one I'm running now. Since they know this run is being written into a story, they've been doing a lot of great roleplaying, so the karma awards have been a little higher than average right now (about 10-12).
>Reaver
>Reaver
| QUOTE (Dim Sum) |
| Legwork? What legwork? |
Which explains why they're being hunted for no apparent reason.
6-7 on average. I'm not counting runs like Double Exposure or Harlequin's Back, which are Karma gold mines.
[ Spoiler ]
I usually award around the 6 mark, once you've factored in personal awards and such. Highest i awarded was aorund the 10-12 mark (brainscan i think)
But say that, my games mostly end up 60% downtime, 30% Legwork (now they know what it is and does) and 10% on the actual run it's self.
But say that, my games mostly end up 60% downtime, 30% Legwork (now they know what it is and does) and 10% on the actual run it's self.
*bump*
As an incentive to keep the players at the table, I offer them an automatic 1 karma per hour. It's amazing how many responsiblilities they will overlook to get a few extra karma in. 
Over the course of the adventure I will reward:
1-2 Karma for Story advancement
1-2 Karma for Heroics/Combat (moral or immoral acts depending on the character)
1-2 Karma for Role-playing
1 Karma for Survival
1-2 Karma for justifying your existance
That's 9 Karma total possiable per run. With the average being 5. I reward Karma at the end of every session, so long runs could yield 12+ and short one night runs only 2-3.
Over the course of a story arch, 5-6 runs, 50 Karma is possiable.
That's 15-20 sessions of play for me.
Groups that I only meet with once a month (like my current real world game) reap about 1 Karma for every hour of play simply cause the games are very focused and intense.
1-2 Karma for Story advancement
1-2 Karma for Heroics/Combat (moral or immoral acts depending on the character)
1-2 Karma for Role-playing
1 Karma for Survival
1-2 Karma for justifying your existance
That's 9 Karma total possiable per run. With the average being 5. I reward Karma at the end of every session, so long runs could yield 12+ and short one night runs only 2-3.
Over the course of a story arch, 5-6 runs, 50 Karma is possiable.
That's 15-20 sessions of play for me.
Groups that I only meet with once a month (like my current real world game) reap about 1 Karma for every hour of play simply cause the games are very focused and intense.
Over a course of a run I will typically award:
3-4 karma for a moderate run, 5-6 karma for a difficult run, insane runs are handled case-by-case.
1 point for exceptional roleplaying, 2 for truly awe-inspiring roleplaying.
Maybe a point for "right place, right time".
Typical player award for average run: 4 karma.
~J
3-4 karma for a moderate run, 5-6 karma for a difficult run, insane runs are handled case-by-case.
1 point for exceptional roleplaying, 2 for truly awe-inspiring roleplaying.
Maybe a point for "right place, right time".
Typical player award for average run: 4 karma.
~J
Although we mostly free-form, we follow book-suggested guidelines fairly strictly, with closure of a specific quest or achievement of a reasonably major goal qualifying as a "run". In addition, we also give one karma per session to every actively participating PC, and the odd karma point or two for significant personal creations (eg. creating blueprints for the new headquarters-to-be).
| QUOTE |
| So usually it's only one player who gets the "Humor" / "Drama" award. Another one receives the "Guts" award ... and so on ... - Cochise |
We found it works well to make the players themselves - not the GM - decide who among them had earned those particular points. Most times agreement was quickly achieved. (They were only given out where the players were unanimous in their choice.) There have been times when the players agreed that none of them had earned karma in one or more of those categories.
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