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noneuklid
I've got two questions about Public Awareness. They're actually complaints, but I'm phasing them in the form of a question in case I'm misunderstanding something. Also, while I did a board search on the topic, I may have missed an earlier post about this. It seems likely others have noticed/asked about these things as well.

First, what's up with Notoriety? It adds a positive bonus to intimidation checks, which makes sense for a trait which can reflect working for dragons, killing innocents, causing excessive damage, etc. However, it also increases for picking fights and losing them, backing down from a run, or acting obnoxiously. These things wouldn't seem to make one particularly 'intimidating.' More 'pathetic.'

Secondly, what's this whole deal about burning Street Cred/Notoriety and Public Awareness? The book gives an example of a sammy who ditches four points of Street Cred to burn two points of Notoriety. This would also reduce their Public Awareness by two. What's that reflect? "Oh, well, yesterday lots of people knew who I was. Today it's back down to just a few. Y'see, last night I called up a few people and apologised for acting like an ass, and everything just sort of worked itself out..." I mean, it seems like if I were a Runner and was getting too well known, I'd go out and do something asnine and public every so often just so people would forget who I was... that doesn't really make sense to me.
Ryu
First, a reputation for fighting without reason makes you more intimidating. I´m more afraid of some people that I could defeat easily than of some of my friends who´d I better attack from behind without warning. Armed.

The second could be something like changing names, faces and modes of operation, lessening the extent to which you are recognised. The bad things stick better than the good ones.


I have to admit we don´t use the system.
Jack Kain
Well actually it doesn't say it reduces your public awareness. You just assume it does.
noneuklid
All I assume is that the rules are consistent. Public Awareness:

QUOTE
Public Awareness is the sum of a runner's Street Cred and her Notoriety, divided by 3 and rounded down. (pg 258, SR4)


There are no other relevant rules for determining a character's Public Awareness, and so the rules would (by default) hold true for whatever values Street Cred and Notoriety happen to be at the moment. So even in the following situation:

Runner Herbie has Street Cred 12 and Notoriety 0, and thus a Public Awareness of (12/3=) 4. His player decides he's getting a bit too well-known, and so he goes out and acts really obnoxious until he ends up starting a fight with a well-known runner and loses. His GM determines that he gets 3 points of notoriety for his exciting and creative method of making an ass out of himself, and 1 additional point of Public Awareness for making a scene with a well-known runner, bringing him up to Cred 12, Notoriety 3, and Public Awareness (15/3=5, +1) 6. The player burns off his Notoriety and ends up at Cred 6, Notoriety 0 and Awareness (2 for 6/3 = 2 from Cred + Notoriety, +1 due to GM decision) 3.

we see that unless the formula only applies some of the time (which isn't mentioned in the rulebook), your public awareness score does go down.
ixombie
Though specific actions increase your notoriety, most people who hear about your rep won't know the details. All they'll know is that a person with notoriety 6 is "bad news." Even if your notoriety is for bumbling, all they'll probably know is that you are notorious.

@noneuklid - That would be correct, if you used the right formula. The correct formula for public awareness is given at the bottom of p.258. It is street cred + notoriety divided by 3, rounded down. Street cred and notoriety equally contribute to your public awareness, and public awareness can't be reduced by any means within the book.

Creative GMing would always allow you to figure something out though, like faking your own death, spreading rumors that you don't exist and you're just a myth, or getting a patsy arrested and jailed/executed in your place so people think you're no longer at large.
ShadowDragon
Like most things, the system requires some common sense GM fiat. That's the advantage RPGs have over videogames wink.gif If a player wants to lower his notoriety and public awareness the day after his face was broadcast over TV for nuking a preschool, the GM is well within his rights to just say no or not yet. If a player took incompetant: basketweaving and thus gained a point of notoriety, the GM is well within his right to turn down a player who wants to use that notoriety for intimidation.
Rotbart van Dainig
You should also note that Notoriety isn't limited to positive values: it's perfectly ok to buy it into negative, quickly reducing your PA to 0.
noneuklid
QUOTE
The correct formula for public awareness is given at the bottom of p.258. It is street cred + notoriety divided by 3, rounded down.


That's the formula I was using -- I quoted it, actually. And as I said earlier, as long as that formula is *always* applied, then it *always* uses the current values for Cred and Notoriety, meaning PA goes down when those go down.

QUOTE
You should also note that Notoriety isn't limited to positive values: it's perfectly ok to buy it into negative, quickly reducing your PA to 0.


Hahah! True, insofar as the rules say! I don't think any GM would allow that, though.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (noneuklid)
Hahah! True, insofar as the rules say! I don't think any GM would allow that, though.

I don't think any GM would actually use those silly rules, at all. wink.gif
Mistwalker
Part of it also depends on how much the players use disguise while on runs.
Either nano-paste and or the spells makeover and fashion, do wonders to make it harder for people to be able to ID you, even if your run "face" is plastered all over the trid, it won't lead to you.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
Like most things, the system requires some common sense GM fiat. That's the advantage RPGs have over videogames wink.gif If a player wants to lower his notoriety and public awareness the day after his face was broadcast over TV for nuking a preschool, the GM is well within his rights to just say no or not yet.

...damn, sounds too familiar.

In KK 4.3's case it was having her mug plastered all over the Seattle News media as she was placing a briefcase bomb (which the Johnson said was blackmail material) in back seat car which in turn blew up a ferry on Puget Sound. The whole run was a political setup to try and throw the Governor's election in Seattle.

...and her having a Logic of 2 didn't help matters either.

Hmmmm.... maybe that monastery in Tibet doesn't sound like a bad idea after all...
Jack Kain
What you should do when you burn street cred to rid yourself of notoriety is keep track of the old score.

At 20 Karma
Street Cred 0(2) (two street cred burned)
Notoriety 1(2)

At 40 Karma
Street Cred 2(4) (still two cred burned)
Notoriety 1(2)

Keep track of it in a manner similar to cyberware boosts on your stats.
this prevents the public awareness escape by burning street cred to rid yourself of notoriety.
Your unmodifed scores still count fully towards public awareness.
You need to keep track of howmuch street cred you've burned anyway for when your karma goes up and run events that grant street cred.


Mr. Unpronounceable
...and every 50 or so karma, you need to make a new character because your old one can't get work anymore.

QUOTE (p. 258)

While Public Awareness may help you score that novel contract based on your shadowrunning memoirs, it will mostly act as a detriment to your shadowrunning career. If your Public Awareness is 3 or higher, you can expect police and security agencies to have a dossier on your activities, and you may even be singled out as an example for capture/prosecution/elimination. Likewise, potential Johnsons and even other runners might consider you too high-profile to work with.


Public awareness 3 = too high-profile to get work. There must be some way in the mechanics to lower it...oh, yeah, we could use the RAW instead of your house-rules!
Jack Kain
Well runners who take precautions to keep from being identified or linked to a crime can lower there Public awareness at DM’s discretion. Its in the same column as public awareness.
Say if your runner obscure his face behind a tinted helmet.


A high public awareness doesn't mean anyone knows your face. It just means the public is more aware of you.
The runner Thunder Dhorn may be famous for his legendary aim but if no one knows for sure what he looks like as his face is always obscured. Its kinda hard to identify him.
Deep Throat (watergate scandel) had a rather high public awareness but until recently how many people knew what he looked like?
noneuklid
I feel confident in saying that anyone who read Deep Throat's astral signature or tracked his PAN knew exactly who he was.

spin.gif
Jack Kain
He'd have to have his comlink active that to happen and you can't really pass out a photo of someones astral signature for the other mages.
(also don't only awakend and dual nature characters have astral signatures)

You do know I was talking about a real person right?

Tracking PAN's: If your comlink is off as you make your escape a PAN trace is impossible. There's no signal to pick up.

Only awakend characters leave astral signatures, even they can erase them.
"A magician using astral perception may take a number of Complex Actions equal to the Force
of an astral signature to erase it completely."

noneuklid
All living things have auras, but yes, only magical effects/powers leave signatures. Mages can transfer knowledge of auras/signatures via Mindlink. My point is that Mr. Throat and Mr. Dhorn have a bit more to worry about in 2070 than what their face happens to look like on any given day; you can always get cosmetic surgery. Besides the two mentioned, there's also genetic information left behind in the form of flaked cells and hair, voiceprints, payment records... the list goes on infinitely. If your name is public enough, people are going to be hunting hard for your identity.

You do know that nobody can really read auras and PANs don't exist, making my statement unqualifiably true, right?
Jack Kain
Genetic material leff behind is useless with out a suspect to link it to. Most runners are SINLESS so they don't have a DNA profile on record anywhere to match the material to.
And SIN cards don't actually include your genetic print on them anyway.
Credsticks make payment records rather hard as these things can physically changes hands alot.
The high usage of fake sins make payment records even harder.
With the advanaced voice mimicing technology a voice print is near useless.

I'm not saying it be easy with a public awareness 10 or anything. What I'm saying is a runners alias may have a public awareness of 3+ but law enforcement doesn't know what he looks. An astral or aura signature can't be shared via the matrix like other data. So only a limited few are going to know.

And the book only says astral signatures have a unqiue finger print. It doesn't mention auras.
When no record of your past exists, staying invisible isn't as hard as you may think.
Why do suppose SINNER is a negative quality.
kzt
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
An astral or aura signature can't be shared via the matrix like other data. So only a limited few are going to know.

I've been told that there was something in a SOTA that I don't have that changed that.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Dec 7 2006, 04:44 PM)
An astral or aura signature can't be shared via the matrix like other data. So only a limited few are going to know.

I've been told that there was something in a SOTA that I don't have that changed that.

From the FAQ
Can a character use simsense to record an image received via a Mindlink spell or obtained via Mind probe, or an astral signature viewed assensing? Can data from magical senses be transmitted via commlink or recorded via headware onto a memory chip?

Technology and magic do not always mesh well. One major hurdle scientists have not yet overcome is a way to technologically record magical sensor input --- whether assensed, received by telepathy, or obtained with some other magical sense such as Clairvoyance. Even simsense fails to capture the information, recording only unintelligible static.
Fortune
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Dec 7 2006, 04:44 PM)
An astral or aura signature can't be shared via the matrix like other data. So only a limited few are going to know.

I've been told that there was something in a SOTA that I don't have that changed that.

You might be thinking of the Astral Camera thingie in SotA 64(?).
hyzmarca
Astrally sensitive film, exists. While taking a digital image of an aura or astral signature is impossible, it is quite easy to take a plain old analog photo using something similar to Kirlian photography. That photograph can then be scanned into a computer system. The equipment is expensive and the technique is painstaking, but there is no good reason for any magically equipped police department to not employ a Kirlian photographer to capture auras and signatures.
Jack Kain
Execpt auras and signaures don't hand around very long. (near as I can tell auras vanish at the speed of the runner)
And magical security is still rather rare in 2070. The runners could easily be long gone before that stuff arives and there signaures faded.

I still don't see how the "astral camera" is suppose to work. And the impression I'm geting form the FAQ shows that it shouldn't exist in the way you discribe it.
Jaid
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
Execpt auras and signaures don't hand around very long. (near as I can tell auras vanish at the speed of the runner)
And magical security is still rather rare in 2070. The runners could easily be long gone before that stuff arives and there signaures faded.

I still don't see how the "astral camera" is suppose to work. And the impression I'm geting form the FAQ shows that it shouldn't exist in the way you discribe it.

the astral camera does exist... however, i think it might not be uploadable into the matrix. still, you could simply keep it at one place and mages could come and assense it.

and magical defense is only rare in areas where shadowrunners are not likely to attack. it isn't that most systems have heavy IC... it's that most any system a shadowrunner is going to be hired to deal with is probably going to have any IC. thus, matrix security might generally speaking consist of low rating IC with the occasional sec decker who jumps around between 20 different nodes. but for the places you're likely to get hired to hit, it might include rating 5+ IC with black hammer or something.
Jack Kain
Right which means you'd have mages trying to keep hundreds if not thousands of astral signatures memorized. the PC's aren't the only runners out there.

Ok I mentioned magical securiy is rare but you go on to talk about matrix what?
Jaid
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
Ok I mentioned magical securiy is rare but you go on to talk about matrix what?

point being: yes, astral security is rare in general.

but anyplace the runners are actually getting paid to hit has a very good chance of being that rare place which has astral security. it may not be truly incredible astral security, but it is quite likely to have at least some...

IOW, if a given location has no astral security, then chances are there's nothing worthwhile there to send runners after.

the matrix security was merely to provide a parrallel example.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (noneuklid)
Secondly, what's this whole deal about burning Street Cred/Notoriety and Public Awareness? The book gives an example of a sammy who ditches four points of Street Cred to burn two points of Notoriety. This would also reduce their Public Awareness by two. What's that reflect?

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

Hmmmm.... maybe that monastery in Tibet doesn't sound like a bad idea after all...


And there's your answer. smile.gif

You burn off street cred by laying low for awhile. People are fickle. "Oh, hey, you're the guy that pulled that Mister Burger job, right? means a lot two days after the event. Two months later? Not so much. You took a couple of months off, you went underground, you didn't really *do* anything, and people stopped keeping an eye out for you.

It also reflects inroads. Yeah, you screwed up at some point and got some notoriety, but you worked hard, kept your mouth shut, and did enough runs to build up a good rep on the streets ...and then you use that rep to erase your previous mistakes. "Yeah, I blew it, but I've been great since then. Gimmie a chance. Call it even?"
Kesslan
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
QUOTE (noneuklid @ Dec 7 2006, 02:33 PM)
Secondly, what's this whole deal about burning Street Cred/Notoriety and Public Awareness?  The book gives an example of a sammy who ditches four points of Street Cred to burn two points of Notoriety.  This would also reduce their Public Awareness by two.  What's that reflect?

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

Hmmmm.... maybe that monastery in Tibet doesn't sound like a bad idea after all...


And there's your answer. smile.gif

You burn off street cred by laying low for awhile. People are fickle. "Oh, hey, you're the guy that pulled that Mister Burger job, right? means a lot two days after the event. Two months later? Not so much. You took a couple of months off, you went underground, you didn't really *do* anything, and people stopped keeping an eye out for you.

It also reflects inroads. Yeah, you screwed up at some point and got some notoriety, but you worked hard, kept your mouth shut, and did enough runs to build up a good rep on the streets ...and then you use that rep to erase your previous mistakes. "Yeah, I blew it, but I've been great since then. Gimmie a chance. Call it even?"

Yeah I mean people eventually forget at least some of the things you did or things that happened. One run I went on, we ran into an enemy runner team, and there was private sec guards etc.

Half the team went around happily killing M. John Doe the security guard, who is just doing the job to make a living, has a family, kids and a little fluffy dog. Turn around and then we run into the enemy runners. GUnfight ensuses, two of the enemy runners are taken alive. Me and another guy try to figgure out who sent them and why. And end result was. Ok first one to offer to talk, lives, the other guy dies. Eventually after variosu rolls etc, one guy cracks. So we live up to what we promised. We geek the other runner.

Other guy spills the beans, we let him go.

SO the other guys in the team are all like OMG! Your horrible! I'll never work with you again! ANd were like, the hell you talking about? WERe not the ones going round mudering John Doe the innocent security guard (we didtn really care but the point kinda stood) Drama ensuses, job gets done. Word gets out.

Two months later hardly anyone even remembers a thing about it. Word got round cause of the inter team drama but after a while it fizzled out, went nowhere. Other jobs I did that were high profile and on the news (On purpose, one case we had to wack a guy and his family, make it real public like and write Trogs Rule in flames on his lawn, we killed him, his wife, faked teh death of his kid whcih we dumped off at some far away orphanage) hit big news, no one knew who did it because we never got spotted, some blood etc was left around but I'd soaked teh place in gasoline, and tossed in some WP grenades for good measure. So add to the news report that the fire department couldnt put out the flames and had to let the whole place burn right to the ground.

People knew someone had done it, a few people looked round, came up with dead ends, 'possible' connections to us at best, absolutely no proof. Kid never poped up again. End of story, few months later no one even rememberd it happening.

Again this was a MUSH to a degree at least were talking about real people forgetting too.

If you ask me Public Awareness is very much like that. OMG! X happend OMG!OMG!OMG!.. a week later "Oohh yeah that I mremmber that" a year down the road "Huh? I dont remember that at all!"
ChicagosFinest
Agreed Magical security is rare and they tend to be in upper eschelon positions as well. Deep throat was a good example and since then there has been nobody more secret than him. God those days of politics are over... which makes for a good adventure Idea.

High profile runners just get high profile and harder jobs. Frank Trollman's group is flying around in space. It's just the bigger you are the bigger the jobs get. Your a local legend in seattle but now move on to the CAS, or Pueblo. Then once you got all of north america looking for you go to Europe. So on and so fourth until your dealing with a dragon, or government entity then your playing for keeps.

Thats how I see and approach SC and Note
Lord Ben
Just because you're "well known" doesn't always mean the guy at stuffer shack knows you or you're on TV a lot. You might just be that guy working behind the bar but enough people know you that info filters in. Or people know that the bar you own is "connected".

"Oh you went to Normans? Yeah, it's a good club with pretty girls. Don't mess around there, I hear the place is 'connected'. The owner bought the club after a big run to settle down. At least that's what he says, he takes a lot of vacation time."
Kesslan
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
Just because you're "well known" doesn't always mean the guy at stuffer shack knows you or you're on TV a lot. You might just be that guy working behind the bar but enough people know you that info filters in. Or people know that the bar you own is "connected".

"Oh you went to Normans? Yeah, it's a good club with pretty girls. Don't mess around there, I hear the place is 'connected'. The owner bought the club after a big run to settle down. At least that's what he says, he takes a lot of vacation time."

I totally agree here. I mean it could also just be that your 'name' gets known. Look at Atilla the Hun. He was a real person. Sure alot of people knew him by face, but FAR more knew him purely by name and reputation. And he's still a major historical figgure in todays world.

So just because your runner becomes more notorious than Hitler doesnt automatically mean that everyone knows what you look like. Hell alot of people might not have a clue, though they likely know by that point at least what metarace you are etc. But that doesnt exactly tell anyone a whole lot. It all comes down to how well you cover your tracks and to what lengths you go to deal with witnesses.

Stuff like ok you go murder some guy. Jill the guys regular joytoy happened to drop by for a 'visit' and sees you but gets away. She goes to the cops and for this we'll assume she heard your streetname used or what ever. Maybe she even knows you. So you, being the notorious fragger you are. Go and take her out before the cops can get to her. Or maybe you take her out, anyone who even talked to her since she got away etc etc ec and through some deal with the devil himself manage to avoid your face ever getting plastered about. But by this poitn everyone would know that "Mr. Saw" was invovlved and not only that, whacked a whole ton of innocent people just so no one could finger him, nor does anyone now have anywhere near an accurate description of the guy.
Lord Ben
Also, instead of stressing over everyone being well known what I am trying to do in our game is embrace it. Instead of worrying why according to the rules I'm well-known yet I haven't done anything really I'm trying to change it myself. In one of the missions we had to deliver a tape of something to a reporter as part of the Johnsons deal. I was going to ask the DM to have the reporter ask me for an interview on Shadowrunning or something. I can be the hidden voice and picture guy with my street name as a caption. Then there is an IG reason for me to be well-known. Or semi-known.

Also, you have to realize that in some respects no matter how much Superman looks like Clark Kent the setting says that nobody draws the line. You have to do that in any game to a certain extent. Sometimes the plot calls for the bad guys to find the PC's super secret nobody knows it secret hideout and sometimes the PC with a streetname of Raven of the Night" can own a bar called "The Nightraven" and nobody figures it out.
wind_in_the_stones
And maybe they do know your face, because word gets around. Maybe a teammate was asking certain questions of his contact. And so was another teammate. So somebody has an idea of where your last job was. And then they see that place on the news. Or they just know when you were working, and something came on the news. And maybe something about it fit your style. And he tells somebody else, leaving out some details, but she knows who he knows...

There are all kinds of ways for people to have an idea of what you're up to.

Hmm... there is a lot of room for erroneous assumptions in those scenarios. Maybe a team could end up with some unearned public awareness or notoriety points. vegm.gif
Mistwalker
As a GM, unless there was a very good plot line, and probably fixable, I would not add unearned notoriety or public awareness to a team of runners.
Too much like rail roading them.
wind_in_the_stones
I agree.
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