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Austere Emancipator
Have the specifics of playing a "medieval" fantasy game with Shadowrun rules been discussed on this forum before? I tried searching, but nothing came up.

I've been doing a bit of translation work (from 2060s to fictional 1100s-1400s, mainly in the field of melee combat (attacking/defending, 2 weapons, shield use, interception, reach, damages and armors) and some other generic stuff, like figuring out resources, the balance of awakened vs mundane -- redoing some magic rules, adept powers, spells, etc. (all PCs would most likely be awakened of some type) -- and that's about it.

So what I'm looking for are the stories of others who have attempted this (and hopefully succeeded). What SR things were most problematic to translate to "medieval" fantasy and how did you solve these problems? Any generic advice?

Or even if you've never actually tried making SR work in such a setting, feel free to offer advice or ask questions or rant or something about how it might or might not work.

I'll post the things I've done so far in detail once I get confirmation that this hasn't been discussed to death before.
Siege
The number system should transplant nicely -- you might have to drek some numbers for horses, but otherwise...

-Siege
Austere Emancipator
Yeah, got it, this is what university does for you.

Yeah, the system will work fine.

Horses and mounted combat in general is a bit of a bitch, but I got it worked out. Sorta. Ride checks to control the mount in combat, to "Dodge" for the mount (complementary), TN -1 in general for riding (this is something I'm not sure about, could someone who knows more about horseback fighting tell me whether it makes sense), TN +1 (or even with the aforementioned -1) for walking mount (generally horse's Q x 2, or in the whereabouts of 10-15 meters per CT) and TN +2 (TN +1) for a running mount (up to Q x 6 or something, have to do the math).
Siege
"Number system" refers to the entire game mechanic system.

Like d20 or d6 or Cyberpunk or anything else.

-Siege
Hot Wheels
Snow fox did it very well going back to late 19th century. The biggest problem is cyberware. I think she borrowed heavily from "Harliquin's Back" for that.
Stonecougar
Actually, a friend and I play a fantasy version of SR all the time. We simply nixed cyberware, guns, and vehicles, cut the power of awakened characters in half, and tossed in a Ride skill. We also tweaked the armor, mostly just reversing ballistic and impact ratings, and made projectile weapons go off quickness instead of strength... it seemed rather silly that the ubiquitous (at least in fantasy games) crossbow should have its use based off strength. For bows, we took a trip from D&D 3E and made more powerful bows cost more, to take advantage of higher strengths. After all, who needs a ballista when you have a Welsh troll with a Longbow? We fudged a lot of the magic, to make magic items more interesting... after all, SR-style weapon foci get boring when playing a sword-and-sorcery setting. I want a rapier that does lightning damage! Stuff like that. Other than that, the racial stats transferred nicely, and the SR system is beautiful for making up stats for new races... like feline/human hybrids, or demons, or neat stuff like that.
phelious fogg
Lightning damage off a weapon focus.. . its called anchoring.. yummy anchoring
Austere Emancipator
I won't do anything resembling cyberware. There might be some things that look a bit like bioware. Or a lot like bioware. But that will definitely not be very common, weird "alien" symbiotes and whatever else.

Is there a description of Snow Fox's campaign, rules and all, somewhere in public?

Since there doesn't appear to be an earlier thread completely along these lines, I might as well post some other stuff I've made so far:

All melee combat skills are pooled for offense and defense, much like Sorcery is for Spellcasting and Spell Defense. CP can be used for either up to the # of skill dice in that pool. Offense works just like attacking works in canon. A char's melee combat skill pools only refresh in the beginning of his/her action. A defense pool die can only be used to defend against one attack before the char's next action.* If a defending character gets net successes, he/she does not automatically counterattack and do damage, unless using a Counterattack maneuver/power/whatever.

Offhand weapons add half the respective skill (e.g. Offhand Longsword, unless ambidextrous in which case just Longsword), rounded up, to be used for off or def pools. THey only add dice to either, an offhand weapon does not increase damage (Longsword 4 + Offhand Dagger 4 just as effective as Longsword 4 + Offhand Longsword 4, unless you lose your main weapon or some other special situation).

A shield is a special type of offhand weapon, which has a defense base TN of 3 and offense base TN of 5 (and generally does fuckall damage). Otherwise it follows all the rules of offhand weapons.

Net reach increases the offense TN of the character with reach disadvantage. (Not any other TNs.) You can attempt to negate reach by going Up Close and Personal. This allows an Intercept to the enemy, but if UCPer gets net successes, reach is negated and both get a flat +1 TN to offense tests. To regain reach, must Break Off Melee.

Breaking Off Melee allows the enemy and Intercept. If tie or BOMer gets net successes, melee breaks up with distance = longer reach +1m.

Amount of Intercepts = 1/Pass + the standard attack (so if you Intercept twice in the first pass, you can no longer do a normal attack in the 1st pass). Full off pool can be used for each Intercept.

All defense dice against an offence (def pool from all weapons, CP for defending with weapons, dodging) must be declared at the same time.

With only 1 one-handed weapon, Dodge TN -1.

For every 3kg or part thereof of armor over Body x 2, +1 to Quickness-related skill tests, Athletics, Unarmed Combat, -1 Quickness for movement, -1 Combat Pool.

Long Reach Weapons: Attacking LRWer with Short Reach Weapon -> Intercept for LRWer. If LRWer gets net successes or even (!= 0 successes), SRWer cannot attack. If no successes for either or SRWer gets net successes, reach bonuses negated and LRWer offense at +1 TN (vs Reach 1+ SRWs) or none at all (vs reach 0 SRWs). LRWer must BOM to regain advantage (as with UCP).**

* Not sure about this. Might also use +1 TN for each attack beyond 1 (or +1 TN/2), but full defense pool dice against each. Or perhaps allow the character to choose between either, +1 TN but full pool vs same TN, divided pool.

** This is just too complicated overall, but it was all I could come up with. Anybody got suggestions for dealing with weapons like pikes?

Then there's rules for grappling and disarming (without any special maneuvers), and weapon and armor lists if anybody's interested or might have suggestions.

PS. Totally agree with Stonecougar on the magic items. Going to make just about every one of them "unique". No anemic Power Foci-6s or Longsword-6s.
nezumi
My biggest complaint is that you have to cut cyber and bioware, which means you have to seriously handicap awakened characters or EVERYONE will be magical (which might not be so bad). One thought I had was make something like tattooing or some sort of special weapon focus. It would still boost some stat or do something nifty (perhaps the 'third eye' which gives you -2 to ranged attacks and automatically ejects expended bolts, or 'fourth eye' which also tells you the range to your target), but instead of costing karma, it costs essence (it somehow binds or feeds off your soul). Obviously, it would require renaming and rebuilding all of the gear you want, but at least you wouldn't have to worry about balance so much.

That said, I love these ideas people are throwing out. I was worried I might have to play the Other Game to get some good medieval action.
ialdabaoth
First idea: this is a low point in the mana cycle, so require Initiation to get anything done. Make the world a level 8 mana warp, with caerns and ley lines maybe lowering the background count by 2-3 points, and then allow Initiates to learn cleansing and filtering as their first techniques.
Kurukami
As others have mentioned, the shield rules definitely need a sharp kick in the head. There are a number of SCA sword-n-boarders in my Shadowrun group (myself amongst them, though I'm far out of practice) and the SR shield rules as written are useless for medieval combat.

My suggestion for them? Use them as "defensive Reach" -- based on the size of the shield, they may only be used to increase the attacker's TN, rather than decrease the defender's (such that a buckler/small shield might grant 1, a heater/round shield 2, and a tower shield 3) -- and give a bit of Impact armor which stacks with existing armor like a helmet (rather than being halved). The maximums for armor ratings before you get penalties to your Quickness-based skills and Combat Pool should definitely still apply, though.
Austere Emancipator
Actually, I did not actually mean to use the official SR timeline medieval times, nor did I mean to use this planet of ours. Using the planet might work, but I wouldn't use the timeline under most circumstances, since that would basically mean a very, very low fantasy game.

I was going to use some fictional world, maybe akin to Forgotten Realms or something. There would be no actual mana cycles, or then they'd be so long that it has been hundreds or, preferably, thousands of years since the last awakening.

Rebuilding all items is not a problem for me in the least. I in fact like rebuilding items. The rules are my major headache. Tattoos rock, I will certainly incorporate some Planescape: Torment -style unique tattoo magic. Thanks for reminding me, Nezumi.

I'm not planning the use the armor rules as they stand, but rather introduce different protection ratings against Piercing, Slashing and Bludgeoning weapons (yeah, I know, it looks very Other Game-ish, but I couldn't help it) to get some variation between the weapons. Otherwise, just about every weapon would be (STR+1)M, with names varying from War Pick, through Footman's Mace to Longsword. Normal armor ratings will range from 1 to 5 (5 being full plate vs slashing and maybe piercing). I'm not very excited by using Shield to give armor, though it certainly is a possibility.

I also hate the idea of limiting armor rating by Quickness. That just plain sucks. If you've got a very light, very protective suit of armor, you shouldn't be as limited as with a heavy, rugged suit of armor. This is why I've got Quickness and CP modifiers by armor weight in the rules above.

Defensive reach is a good idea. Up to 3 might be overdoing it, however. I'd rather just use 1 for just about all shields, with limitations to against how many opponents and what kind of attacks (basically, can it be used effectively against ranged attacks) it can be used based on shield size (again very much like in a certain Other Game). I'll have to check how that will effect game balance. At the moment, fighting with just 1 weapon one handed, with 2 weapons, with a 2-H weapon or with a weapon and a shield are pretty nicely balanced. Using more than 1 defensive reach would give the shield bearers a heck of an advantage, but just +1 might work.

However, with the rules I've got so far, it doesn't make quite as much sense as it makes for most people who'll want to keep SR rules as intact as possible. With the rules I've got, there's that symmetry I like of a shield really just being a "weapon" you wield with your offhand, it is just used a bit differently than most weapons.

I do have a nagging feeling, though, that shield use isn't as much a question of skill as using melee weapons is. Also, the advantages of a low skill in shield use are not very large. In fact, they are nonexistant, since people with a single 1-H weapon are better off. Perhaps, to make the rules I've got so far work, I'd have to give shields additional dice automatically, for defense purposes only. E.g. 1 for bucklers, up to 3 for large shields.
Stonecougar
For shields, we just use the Riot shield rules from SR. I like the tattoo magic idea...

One weapon we found strangely lacking from SR was a rapier. We had to create it ourselves... here's what it looks like.

Damage: (STR)+1M
Reach: 1
Halve armor rating on strikes by rapiers.

We never bothered with weight or price... weight is screwy in SR anyway, and price varies.

Good point with the anchoring... I'd totally flaked on that. What I had was a rapier that did the usual damage, but at will discharged an 8S(Stun) shock, rather like a stun baton. I wound up simply parrying with it and knocking people out... or tapping them on the shoulder. It got a skosh beardy at the end...
Abstruse
Shadowrun in a medieval setting...isn't that Earthdawn? Just use Shadowrun's rules system with Earthdawn's setting, a little bit of fudging, and voila.

The Abstruse One
Kurukami
QUOTE (Stonecougar @ Oct 28 2003, 11:42 AM)
For shields, we just use the Riot shield rules from SR. 

Shields add 2 to the TN for both the attacker and the defender?!? Not a chance I'd ever use that in a game, then. Any decent sword-and-shield fighter will have been trained how to fight around a shield -- and frankly, the riot shields listed in the SR3 book don't give enough of a benefit to warrant that penalty. I stand by my "defensive reach" suggestion.
Austere Emancipator
I did a bit of math, and I'll be sticking with my original system for shields. That's not to say that Kurukami's Def Reach system doesn't work, I'm in fact pretty certain it'll work nicely. It's just that my system ALSO works, and I prefer that since it's mine. smile.gif

I definitely do not want to run Earthdawn. What I know of that game simply doesn't appeal to me. Therefore I do not plan on buying the books for it, when the only advantage would be (possibly) some hints at how to change the rules.
Kurukami
Something you might want to consider for a medievally themed game as well would be the inclusion of various styles of weapon'd combat, complete with various maneuvers like the unarmed styles from Cannon Companion. Think of all those swashbuckling movies like The Princess Bride -- "Ah, you are using Bonetti's Defense against me, eh? Naturally you must expect me to attack with Capafera!"

If for no other reason, any style which teaches Close Combat (which would probably require a bit more difficulty to use with weapons and shields) would allow a person to get inside the guard of an opponent. When you're facing off against an armored knight with a big shield and a longsword, getting inside his reach and his shield's useful radius could be invaluable.
Austere Emancipator
I already included the UC&P maneuver, which anyone can use. I will probably use styles whenever someone has really been schooled in martial arts, like monks or rich/noble characters (Kung Bloody Fu and fencing, etc). However, I do not intent to make the average thug or infantryman the master of Bloody Dragon Fist Longsword Style or anything like that. Most styles of fighting will just fall under the weapon categories (Edged Weapons, Hafted Weapons, Polearms for most cases). Thanks for reminding me of actually having to make rules for the few styles that there will exist, however.

A good point about a shield being rather useless when UC&P. Will have to make up rules to include that. Maybe a flat +2 TN for shield use, bringing the TN for defending with a shield to 5 (harder than "Dodging"), attacking to 7 (ie useless).

Fighting an armored knight, a good idea might be to throw a stone at him when he gets to 3 meters, then run 20 meters, wait, repeat. Add mocking of said knight at your whim. Unless of course he's on a horse, in which case you're a bit screwed. A suit of plate armor will weigh at least 20kg (this in fact is one thing I need help on, the weights of actual suits of armor), slowing the knight down quite nicely (unless it happens to be a particularly strong, sturdy dwarven knight).
Kurukami
Actually, you might be surprised at how fast fighters in plate can run, especially when they're just chasing you down. Think of a freight train -- decent on acceleration, and you don't want to get in their way... but they don't turn quickly. Most anyone who's worn armor for a good portion of their life will be at least somewhat acclimated to the weight.

I know that I was, when I still messed around with heavy combat in the SCA. If a suit of armor is well-designed and -supported and centered on your body mass, then you don't really feel the weight all that much. And heavies can charge in at an astonishing clip.

As for the rock? Well, if you're not attacking me from the front, yeah, that's possible -- helms limit your peripheral vision considerably. But the likelihood of your doing anything other than annoying me with a rock that you can throw is low. Most helms, medieval-replica anyways, are 12-gauge steel or thicker and backed by padding. They're made to stop full power blows from guys that could bench more than 200 pounds. Your wee rock isn't likely to do any more than get his attention.

And don't ever get within three meters of a knight when he's facing you with weapon drawn. He can close that distance and beat you down before you can turn and run, trust me. cyber.gif
Austere Emancipator
That's why I mentioned mocking. It's not supposed to damage, at least not physical (not Physical, but physical). My wee rock is nothing but a tool for causing humiliation, which is why it's wee.

What do SCA plate armors weigh? I really do want to know, because if the weights really were 20kg+, then I seriously doubt the average footsoldier is gonna do a lot of sprinting in it. Sure he can cross the 3 meters I mentioned, but I'm pretty sure I could run a hundred meters, fire a cross bow, take out my melee weapon, etc. if they're that heavy. If, however, most footman's plate armors were in the 10-20kg range, that would change the situation a lot.

The running speed of said knight will not be reduced by as much as it might, though, since I calculate movement rates as (6+Q)/2, so the slowest you'll ever get is 3, or 9 meters for a running human, no matter how much armor he's got on.

Full power blows from guys that can bench more than 200 pounds are going to fuck you up, regardless of your helmet -- unless it's bolted on to your full plate armor, which is completely rigid and just as thick. And I don't really wish to hear SCA antics on that one, because I'm sure there's no one here who would want to get hit with a crowbar by the people I know who can bench that, no matter what kind of helmet they're wearing.
Stonecougar
Matter of fact, those blows to the head ARE from guys who can bench 200+ pounds. Were you in the Kingdom of An Tir, I'd introduce you to a beast of a man named Fiacca the Blue. But as you said, you don't want to hear the SCA bit.

Okay, so blows to the head from a guy who can bench 200 are gonna fuck you up. Consider that those REPLICA helms are 12 gauge steel. The real thing was probably more like 10 gauge, hard forged. Under that, they wore a chain coif. Under that, they wore a quilted biggin, or padded cap, for cushioning. Yes, blows to the head DO suck, but they did a damn fine job of making them survivable.

Another point to make is, yes, the boys in the SCA can bench 200+ and are beating you on the head, but then, they're only swinging inch and a quarter rattan sticks, things that will break before your head does. Now, put a 15 pound mace in the hands of one of those gentlefolk, hard forged steel all of it, and that's gonna seriously ruin a man's day, helmet or no.

Now, you say the average footman's plate mail. No such thing. Plate mail was for knights, wealthy, strong, landowning men who were trained from their youth to be the most fearsome warriors western Europe had ever seen. The average footman wore chain if he was lucky, or perhaps rings and leather. If his knight was kind and liked his men, they might wear brigandine. But most likely, he'd have a crude suit of cuir boilli, leather boiled in wax to reach a hardness roughly equivalent to modern plastic. Heavy, hot, restrictive, and still not the most protective, that was likely the best the average footman got. When you watch LOTR and see Aragorn and Legolas in their soft leather armor, that's nonsense. Soft leather is clothing, and it will maybe stop a poorly aimed knife blow, but nothing more. The average footman likely will not have a sword and shield, either. He'll have spears, halberds if his knight is wealthy, or some sort of local hardened farm implement. The peasantry were quite good at coming up with equalizing weapons... for example, the Flemish peasants had a rather nasty two handed affair that consisted of a long haft, a big heavy wooden head, and several long, sharp steel spikes coming out of the head. This weapon was known as the Godendag, or "Good Day!" Apparently, the Flemish peasantry had a rather wry sense of humor. This thing was used to great effect against the French mounted knights... but then, that's the French...

Where was I? Oh yes, common footman weapons. Spears, pikes, halberds... long weapons, things they could engage a man on horseback with. If they were up against other men on foot, you're looking at flails, hammers, maces, swords, but very few could afford fine swords or shields. Bows were used, but the only ones who ever really gave the bow credence on the battlefield for the longest time were the English/Welsh, whose longbowmen were rightly feared throughout the land. Mostly, the poor sods with bows sat there launching volleys of ineffectual arrows, armed with little more than long daggers for melee combat. Gods help them if they were charged, for they'd break and be cut down like dogs, more like than not. And much as they may like to tout archers in fantasy games and fiction, the medieval European archer was a rather depressing fellow, poor, out of shape, ill-trained, unarmored, and with a rather weak bow that would simply bounce sharpened sticks off knight armor. A wonderful diversion if you really want the knight's attention over there, but not much else. Nobody cared about the archers; if they were killed, eh, oh well. The English or Welsh longbowmen, however, were respected and used heavily. They were trained and drilled, hardened soldiers who were protected as valuable assets on the field of war. Their bows, yew staves that were taller than they were, could launch arrows hundreds of yards with devastating power and surprising accuracy. They couldn't always punch through plate mail, but then, that's what knights are for, isn't it?

Crossbows didn't really become common until the late middle ages, when the Catholic church actually sought to ban them, as they were simple weapons that the common folk could easily obtain and readily use with little training or skill. The power of a crossbow, when compared it a bow, is obviously superior in manners of penetration and wounding capability, if not necessarily range. The trouble with crossbows is, they're slow to reload. An English or Welsh longbowman could launch several volleys of arrows in under a minute, but a group of soldiers with arbalests would take much, much longer, as the crossbows with the strength required to penetrate heavy armor also typically required heavy winches to reload.

Back to the original subject of plate armor, however. Plate armor was ALWAYS properly fitted. It was custom made for the user, for the knights were influential and wealthy men who could hire the best smiths in the land. Thus, their armor fit almost like a second skin. Wearing plate armor feels little different than wearing clothing, if it's buckled down and distributed properly. Men in plate can run, jump, tumble, do cartwheels or handsprings, and fight with devastating effectiveness, and the knights were at the top of their game, for they trained regularly to maintain good physical condition. No, they don't turn well when they get up a head of steam, but then, neither to 300 pound NFL defensive linemen. A full suit of properly made gothic plate in 12 gauge steel would weigh in at about 40-45 lbs., roughly 18-20 kilos. However, it's all distributed so evenly over the entire body that as I said, it feels as if you're merely wearing thick, slightly rigid clothing. Chain is actually heavier and harder to move in, because all the weight is hanging from the head, neck and shoulders. Go find a chain hauberk at a Ren Faire or something and try it on, and you'll see what I mean.

Yes, you could probably outrun the knight to get a hundred meters away and get your crossbow. However, most knights fought from horseback, and I challenge any human being to outrun a fully barded Percheron with a head of steam up. Those horses were 7 or 8 feet tall at the shoulder, with legs as thick around as my torso. Monstrous, magnificent beasts, and they had to be, too, to carry all that weight.

Ah, damn, look at me, I've gone off on a colossal rant now. Well, enough with the history lesson, I'm gonna shut up now.nyahnyah.gif
CoalHeart
Stonecougar you're wrong about the weights of weapons and the protective value of plate. but Pretty dam right about the rest of it.

Maces Axes and Hammers all weighed around 4-7 pounds. any heavier and they were too tiring to use in an extended battle. Expecially for poorly trained and conditioned peasants, and warriors.

Also Axes and Hammers tended to have a striking point opposite of thier bladed and hammer head. Find someone wearing ridged plate, or even chain, just give your weapon a back hand swing or twist the alignment.

On the other hand norse warriors from the northern lands tended to use much heavier weapons and they had the strength and conditioning to use them for extended amounts of times.

A single spear thrust (though there's risk of the shaft breaking) , and yes a thrusting point of the shorter hafted weapons could easily pierce plate and most other lesser armors.

Getting hit in the head by any of the dark age wepons and it spelled death almost assuredly.
Austere Emancipator
Average footman's plate = Average for the suits of plate mail meant to be worn outside of mounted combat. That doesn't mean it has to be carried by the "average footman". I am not an idiot, although I am aware I might sound like one at times. I know plate armor was expensive, and not exactly common. But I've seen several pictures of plate armor meant to be worn outside of mounted combat, and I have a habit of believing my eyes.

18-20kg sounds a bit light. Is that just the plate, or does it include padding? In any case, the whole of your "rant", after slight deflation, more or less agrees with the views I have on middle aged weapons and armor. Many things in there are certainly worth reminding people of.

Messages like the one from CoalHeart I like to see. What's mentioned there agrees almost completely with my views, but I would like to hear as much as possible in case I've got something completely wrong. I might, in fact, have put down some footmen's hafted weapons as weighing far more than practical (~5kg), gotta redo those.

Anyways, just so we don't get completely derailed into discussing medieval warfare, which HAS been done several times before, I'm still looking for discussion on how to do e.g. the Longer Reach Weapons, like pikes. While I know the rules I have at the moment work, sort of, they are too cumbersome for my liking. A more streamlined version would be preferable. I'm open for any suggestions. Same goes for all the other rules I've mentioned so far.

A funny side effect of the rules changes I'm doing for medieval Shadowrun is that I'm going to use many of them in my current 2060s Shadowrun game, especially where melee combat is concerned. It will be nice to see how they work in this setting...
Siege
One more tidbit -- armor your head all you like, but it's still mounted on your neck.

-Siege
Kurukami
A distinction which SR seems to ignore, for the most part. Unless you're doing a called shot to the head, that is. biggrin.gif
Siege
I was making a notation about real life armor vs weapon outcomes.

It's one of the reasons why samurai learned joint manipulation techniques over strikes because as armored as the person may be, limbs still have to move.

As for SR and armor and headshots...ugh. That's another threaded rant unto itself. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Kurukami
QUOTE
Average footman's plate = Average for the suits of plate mail meant to be worn outside of mounted combat. That doesn't mean it has to be carried by the "average footman". I am not an idiot, although I am aware I might sound like one at times. I know plate armor was expensive, and not exactly common. But I've seen several pictures of plate armor meant to be worn outside of mounted combat, and I have a habit of believing my eyes.

Yup, there's definitely a difference between the ultra-Gothic parade plate and the type of stuff that was more commonly worn by knights on the battlefield. The parade plate was a whole lot heavier.

QUOTE
18-20kg sounds a bit light. Is that just the plate, or does it include padding? In any case, the whole of your "rant", after slight deflation, more or less agrees with the views I have on middle aged weapons and armor. Many things in there are certainly worth reminding people of.

That would probably be plate, for torso, arms, legs, and head, possibly with chain to cover the vulnerable spots (groin, back of knees, armpits, insides of arms). Shields are another matter entirely -- and those, after a while, do get damned heavy. Chain, despite looking nifty, is much more encumbering and protects a great deal less. For example, it hardly does a thing to stop a blunt mass-weapon like a mace.

QUOTE
Anyways, just so we don't get completely derailed into discussing medieval warfare, which HAS been done several times before, I'm still looking for discussion on how to do e.g. the Longer Reach Weapons, like pikes. While I know the rules I have at the moment work, sort of, they are too cumbersome for my liking. A more streamlined version would be preferable. I'm open for any suggestions. Same goes for all the other rules I've mentioned so far.

Pikes are an interesting case. Though the length allows for a good strike at a significant distance, it also means that they're easy to get around. For example, a good swordsman can beat aside a single pikeman's weapon and get inside that impressive reach, at which point the pikeman's toast unless the swordsman trips over a log or something. (I relate this example because, at a particular West-An Tir SCA war, it actually happened to me -- and I was the swordsman!)

Pikes work best in groups. Sure, a swordsman can beat aside a single pike head, but a dozen all concentrating on him is much more difficult to avoid. For Shadowrun rules, I'm not certain how I'd adapt such a weapon. It's got tons of reach, but that reach is very easy to defeat if the pikeman is alone. Maybe something could be tried like "reach, only when gaining friends-in-melee bonus". *shrug*
Austere Emancipator
Actually, if you only think of pikes in those terms, my rules do work. Against a single pikeman, it will be rather easy to make sure that you, as a swordsman, can defend against the pikeman's intercept as you close in, and then the pikeman is toast. Against several pikemen, they all get intercepts as you try to close in on one of them. But, like I said, it's a bit complex.

Only With Friends Reach might work, but it's a bit too quick'n'dirty for me.
John Campbell
A'ight, this thread exploded too fast for me to respond to everyone point-by-point here, but I've got to toss in my 0.02Y, so here's some general commentary:

For starters, so you know where I'm coming from: I'm another one of them pesky SCAdians. I've been doing armored combat for, eh, call it nine years. I fought in plate + mail for my first several years, moved to full plate, and currently fight in just mail. The large majority of my fighting time has been sword and shield, but I'm at least competent with most other weapons forms.

QUOTE (Stonecougar)
Damage: (STR)+1M
Reach: 1
Halve armor rating on strikes by rapiers.


I'd give rapiers (Str+3)L damage and not mess with the armor ratings againt them. They tend to make fairly nice, neat little holes, and doing real damage with them is largely a matter of having the skill to place that neat little hole somewhere critical. They do penetrate nicely, though, at least against "soft" armor. Thus, high power and a low base damage... you need to stage it up with skill to really do damage, but having done so, it's difficult for your target to stage it back down unless they have really good armor.

And it should be a Quickness-based skill. Actually, pretty much all of the melee skills should be Quickness-based. Strength is not as vital a factor in armed combat as the SR system indicates. Basing damage Power on it should be sufficient...

I've talked about my modified melee weapon skills around here before, but this seems like a good time to go over them again. Instead of Edged Weapons, Clubs, and Pole Arms/Staffs, I have Knives, Single-Hand Weapons, and Great Weapons. These are all Quickness-linked skills, in the same default group, and they cover basically the Reach 0, 1, and 2+ weapons, respectively. I also have a category of hand-and-a-half weapons - katanas, bastard swords, combat axes, and so on - that can be used either one-handed with Single-Hand Weapons or two-handed with Great Weapons, without penalty. One-handed use lets you use off-hand weapons or shields, and two-handed use gets you the +1 Power bonus outlined in CC.

Shadowrun weapon weights are screwy. I've never seen a role-playing game where they weren't. SR does a better job than most, though... the weapons do run a bit heavy, but most of them are pretty close, and there are only a couple that're outright ridiculous. The 6kg claymore is the worst offender... it should be about half that. The laser goofyass axe is way too heavy for something you're supposed to be able to swing with one hand, too, but I think it's a silly idea to start with, and not something you'd need to worry about in a medieval setting, anyway. Museum Replicas' catalog is a pretty good source for accurate weights and sizes, at least if you stay away from the junk out of movies.

My plate weighs about 35 pounds... call it 16 kilos. It's 16 gauge mild steel, actually thicker than most period suits. Medieval plate generally ran 18-20 gauge, thicker in critical areas, which is enough to stop a glancing blow... and nothing you'd want to carry around is going to stop a direct shot from anything designed for armor-piercing, so there's no point in trying. It got heavier later on... towards the end of the plate-armor period, they were proving them with muskets, but that was shortly before plate disappeared almost completely because it was impractically heavy. Jousting armor was also significantly heavier... typically massively thick plate on front where the opponent's lance would strike, and next to nothing in back. It could easily be over a hundred pounds, and was often not really articulated... but it wasn't used for actual combat.

My mail is actually heavier than my plate. My hauberk (elbow-length sleeves, skirt to the knees) weighs about 45 pounds... call it 20kg. It is, however, much easier to move in. I belt it so I'm carrying some of the weight on my hips, and it's just like wearing regular clothes. Heavy clothes, but clothes. The weight is no worse than wearing a loaded backpack... not as bad, even, because it doesn't mess with my center of gravity nearly as much as a backpack. And mail actually protects surprisingly well against even blunt impact... the weight of the mail, especially if it's hanging free away from the body, tends to absorb the momentum of the blow. It doesn't stop it, but it slows it down a lot, often enough that it's not really painful when it arrives. I'm actually coming home from fighter practice with fewer bruises since I started fighting in mail.

Shields are very useful things, but they do reduce the shieldman's offensive options, and the bigger the shield, the more they reduce them. I've fought for years with a 28"x42" kite (this is the East... we've got none of that shoulder-to-shoulder and chin-to-crotch BS here), and, while it basically covers my left side completely from knee to temple, it also renders me effectively blind on that side, and there are several off-side blows I simply can't throw unless I move my shield out of the way first... which has the effect of simultaneously telegraphing my intentions and opening up my defense, which are Bad individually, and Very Bad in combination.

Of course, it reduces my opponent's offensive options even more... that's why I put up with the inconveniences (and the weight of the frickin' thing... it's under ten pounds, but keeping ten pounds up with my left arm is a lot harder than carrying fifty around on my shoulders and hips).

Shields are definitely not armor, though. It's not just something you wear... using a shield is as much a practiced skill as using a sword. Someone who doesn't know how to use a shield will find it worse than useless... it'll get in their way, tire them out, and make them think it's protecting them when it isn't (shields tend to produce an ostrich effect in new fighters... they'll get the shield up in front of their face, and figure because they can't see you, they're safe behind their shield, not realizing that the shield isn't actually covering anything but their head, that you can see this clearly even if they can't, and so all they've really done is blind themselves so they can't see your leg or body shot coming).

I still need to chew on shield mechanics some. I like the idea of the half-dice Off-Hand: Shield skill... my own thoughts had been going rather along those lines as well. I'm thinking also allowing full dice from it when in Full Defense. Having the shield penalize offensive TNs going both ways is also a good thing, I think, but the official rules for it are way too harsh on the shieldman... especially since there's no way he's getting the Reach 2 he needs to eliminate it with one hand already full of shield (unless he's a troll), whereas his opponent can easily accomplish it by using a two-handed weapon. Maybe asymmetrical modifiers dependent on shield size, and forget the "Reach negates" bit? 0/0 (shieldman/opponent) from a buckler, 0/+1 from a medium-sized heater or the like, +1/+2 for a big kite or scutum. No armor provided by the shield... just the extra dice and TN.

Oh, yeah, and shield-bashing needs to be seriously beefed up. As the rules stand, clobbering someone with five pounds of iron-rimmed oak does less damage than just punching them. It's worth noting that in the SCA, we routinely club each other full-force with unpadded 7.5' poles, but don't allow shield-bashing because it has too high a probability of really seriously injuring someone...

That's enough rambling for now, I think...
mfb
it's my understanding that most shields weren't intended to last for more than one battle. rules for damaging shields in the normal course of a fight ought to be included.
Austere Emancipator
This is all good stuff, keep it going. I don't really mind whether you're pesky SCAdians or not, it just means that I have to be even more critical than normal when reading what you've written.

I might end up making most or all melee combat skills Quickness-linked. But that, along with the skill groupings, isn't an exact science, so I'll just use whatever I like best on the night before the game starts...

I think I've got most of my armor weights now. The cheaper armors, mostly the ones that are mostly or in part made out of leather, still need some thinking, though. How much did hardened leather armors, brigandine, splint and whathaveyou weigh? And what about scale mail, was it used at all in those times (1100-1400)?

Extra dice AND +TN for the enemy might be a bit TOO good. I'll have to see how much of a difference that makes. Even with my rules, Sword+Shield had an advantage over just Sword in just about all cases, but it wasn't an overwhelming advantage (and average of 1 success more on defense than the SwordOnly-character with skills ranging from 3 to 6, CPs from 4 to 8). This might lead to a situation where everyone has either Sword+Shield or a polearm. While it might be realistic, it's not very fun from a RP point of view. I will most likely implement Full Shield Dice when on Full Defense.

I have in fact got rules for shield damage. I'm just having a hard time figuring out exactly how fast I want them to be busted: 5, 10, 20 straight hits from a 2-hand sword. This of course depends heavily on what kind of shield we're talking about.

The rules I've got written down right now mean that there's a bit of bookkeeping (ie how much damage the shield has taken so far). With them, it's possible to bust a regular wooden shield with as few as 4 blows from a 2-hand sword (or similar weapon). If you don't aim at the shield, it can take ~10 such blows, more from a smaller weapon. A heavier shield might not be really damaged by light weapons at all.
nezumi
I think, when it comes down to it, you've got a real choice to make.

1) You can keep stuff simple and abstract. This is what SR does; a club does the same kind of damage as an axe and a shield is just armor.

2) You can chuck all of the shadowrun rules one by one and end up with a d6 version of DragonQuest or the Other Game 2nd edition.

Shadowrun simply wasn't made for the complexities that come with melee combat, which on the most basic level is significantly more involved than firing a gun at someone (at least from what I can tell). Instead of rewriting SR to do something it shouldn't, I'd say go find a system which is designed with this all in mind and change things to include shadowrun. I'm just thinking you're doing a lot of work you don't have to and in the end you're only going to be using a very few rules special to SR. But the result will be game mechanics bogged down because they were designed to do something totally different.

Of course, if you DO make a d6, loosely SR based medieval game, I would be very interested in seeing the results.
Austere Emancipator
The Other Game sucks for what I've got in mind. I'd have to revamp it a lot more than SR. I've never run into a fantasy game system that I like yet. What I've got so far suits my gaming style a lot better than just about anything else.

The only bit here that is complex, ruleswise, are the Long Reach Weapon rules, and if push comes to shove, I can just chuck pikes out of the game altogether, and say that there really aren't any around, or if there are they are only used to stop cavalry attacks.

Otherwise, I really haven't done much to the rules that many people don't house rule in their 2060s SR games already. Do you honestly think, looking at what I've got written up so far, that it doesn't look like Shadowrun at all? We haven't even touched magic rules. Spellcasting, conjuring, enchanting all work exactly as they do in SR, with the exception that most magical items are unique. The initiative system, skill system, character creation, these are all still the same.

All that's changing are the melee combat rules, and some ranged combat stuff. Changing the items (like melee combat weapons, ranged weapons and armor) is a no brainer, it has to happen anyway. But those items are still handled like they are in SR, they are just named differently and have different stats. So far the only change I've done to this part of SR is that I've given weapons inherent armor piercing capability, like I do already in the 2060s game (which, I can honestly say, doesn't bog down the game at all), and I've divided armor ratins into Blunt/Slashing/Piercing, which isn't that different from Ballistic/Impact.

The rules so far as just as simple and abstract, if not more so, than the 2060s SR game I run ATM. I claim it is VERY solidly based on SR.
Snow_Fox
For the actual rules for what I did in the 1920's SR I took alot of the stuff from two chapters in Harlequin's Back- the Western one and the grand ball.

The big difference is that cyberwear is clockwork, it shows up as very obvious-kind of like Trek borg, with smart likns and other eyeware being crystals fitting over the eyes so the person can't hide what they have.

Bioware was show by what looked like animal tissue fit over their bodies, so muscle augmentation looks like strips of tiger pelt grafted onto arms and thighs.

THe big change is a lack of rapid fire guns. hand guns, single shot rifles are predomiant. some sub machine guns.

the important part of the game seems to be my familiarity with the culture and tech levels of the p[eriod so i can work this in and create a realistic sounding world.
Kurukami
I don't know just how much large-scale combat you might be considering in your game, but it might be worthwhile to determine just how to handle groups of missile attackers (like a squad of archers) so that you don't have to roll every single attack with them...
Siege
At the risk of getting torched, I found the "Ars Magica 3rd Edition" system a reasonably good re-enactment of medieval combat.

-Siege
Austere Emancipator
I don't think squads of archers will be an issue, but if they are, I will either rule them as single attacks (if small enough a group) or as "suppressing fire".
Stonecougar
QUOTE (CoalHeart)
Stonecougar you're wrong about the weights of weapons and the protective value of plate. but Pretty dam right about the rest of it.

Maces Axes and Hammers all weighed around 4-7 pounds. any heavier and they were too tiring to use in an extended battle. Expecially for poorly trained and conditioned peasants, and warriors.

Also Axes and Hammers tended to have a striking point opposite of thier bladed and hammer head. Find someone wearing ridged plate, or even chain, just give your weapon a back hand swing or twist the alignment.

On the other hand norse warriors from the northern lands tended to use much heavier weapons and they had the strength and conditioning to use them for extended amounts of times.

A single spear thrust (though there's risk of the shaft breaking) , and yes a thrusting point of the shorter hafted weapons could easily pierce plate and most other lesser armors.

Getting hit in the head by any of the dark age wepons and it spelled death almost assuredly.

QUOTE
Stonecougar you're wrong about the weights of weapons and the protective value of plate. but Pretty dam right about the rest of it.


Weights of weapons, yes. Protective value of plate, no. Axes generally didn't do squat against plate, and swords did even less, unless the blows were well placed. Flanged maces were very effective, and in fact, were about the best thing for plate.

QUOTE
A single spear thrust (though there's risk of the shaft breaking) , and yes a thrusting point of the shorter hafted weapons could easily pierce plate and most other lesser armors.


I have to disagree. Most spears, the shaft would break and the point wouldn't penetrate. Keep in mind, most spears at that period were simple, cheaply made, mass produced weapons that were rather easily defeated by a skilled knight.

QUOTE
Getting hit in the head by any of the dark age wepons and it spelled death almost assuredly.


Again, gotta call false on that. I've personally seen folks wearing great helms get nailed on the noggin by the aforementioned 200+-benching SCAdians with a crowbar, and walk away little more than rattled. Axes and swords would do all of dick against a great helm, with maces being the only ones that really stood much chance of doing any real damage.
Kurukami
Unless you managed to nail the juncture between helm and shoulders. The gorget and/or chainmail "bishop's collar" is much more vulnerable than a padded steel helm. I got nailed there once in arms-practice, by someone wielding a rattan "longsword" who hit me with a sweet wrap-shot, and it felt like it damned near fractured a vertebrae even through the gorget.
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