What is the real difference between a clip and a magazine? Is there such a thing as a clip, even? If the thingy you jam into the non-shooty end of a pistolmatron isn't a clip, then I have no idea what is!
Discuss!
Full Version: Gun question...
Ok. People in the know about guns refer to what the layperson (including FanPro) calls a clip as a magazine.
What is the real difference between a clip and a magazine? Is there such a thing as a clip, even? If the thingy you jam into the non-shooty end of a pistolmatron isn't a clip, then I have no idea what is!
Discuss!
What is the real difference between a clip and a magazine? Is there such a thing as a clip, even? If the thingy you jam into the non-shooty end of a pistolmatron isn't a clip, then I have no idea what is!
Discuss!
I believe magazine is the preferred term for automatics. A magazine is larger then a clip.
Detachable magazines are when you can remove the whole magazine and replace it with a different magazine.
"Clips" are likely stripper clips like the M1 Garand. It's several bullets loaded into one "device" (the clip), the clip is then inserted into the rifle.
Real general terms would be that the magazine has the springs, etc to put the next bullet in place. In a gun like the garand the springs to push the next bullet into place, etc are located in the rifle. however all 8 bullets are inserted at once via clip.
"Clips" are likely stripper clips like the M1 Garand. It's several bullets loaded into one "device" (the clip), the clip is then inserted into the rifle.
Real general terms would be that the magazine has the springs, etc to put the next bullet in place. In a gun like the garand the springs to push the next bullet into place, etc are located in the rifle. however all 8 bullets are inserted at once via clip.
... A magazine is where all rounds not immediately ready to fire are stored. They are usually used with modifying words describing the type of magazine such as 'tubular' as found in shotguns and lever action rifles, detachable box, as found in most modern arms, and fixed usually meaning a box magazine that is fixed to the weapon itself.
A clip is a small metal device used for houlding cartridges together. They are typically used to simplify the reloading of weapons with a fixed magazine.
entry for the SMLE rifle, that used clips. there is a picture of a loaded clip near the bottom. These clips made it much simpler to load rounds into the SMLEs magazine.
A clip is a small metal device used for houlding cartridges together. They are typically used to simplify the reloading of weapons with a fixed magazine.
entry for the SMLE rifle, that used clips. there is a picture of a loaded clip near the bottom. These clips made it much simpler to load rounds into the SMLEs magazine.
In SR-terms, indeed, a "clip" would be that wicked contraption that holds the ammo which you will insert in the non-business-end of yonder shootomatic, be it pistol, smg or assault-cannon.
A "magazine" is everything where you have to insert your bullets one by one. Like the aforementioned tubular thing under the barrel of your pump-action shotgun.
A "magazine" is everything where you have to insert your bullets one by one. Like the aforementioned tubular thing under the barrel of your pump-action shotgun.
| QUOTE (Naysayer @ Dec 12 2006, 06:40 PM) |
| In SR-terms, indeed, a "clip" would be that wicked contraption that holds the ammo which you will insert in the non-business-end of yonder shootomatic, be it pistol, smg or assault-cannon. |
In SR-terms "velocity" refers to how many bullets a turn your gun can fire.
It's also, like their use of clip, wrong.
In 65 years the language has changed. Now "velocity" refers to cycle rate, "clip" means magazine, "hacker" is someone who illegally breaks into computer systems, and "organic" is vegetables grown with bugs on them.
| QUOTE |
| As of the early 21st century, stripper clips are used as a primary form of reloading in few militaries (save those still fielding the SKS), as all modern assault rifles use detachable magazines. However, they are sometimes used to refill magazines for use later, as this is usually easier on the fingers than doing it by hand. |
Fah, I can hand fill a 30 round magazine in just shy of fifteen seconds, and I'm not even the fastest I know... who needs a stinkin' rail to load it?
Just had to say it, eh...
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Dec 13 2006, 01:42 AM) |
| Stripper clip En bloc clip (such as for the M1 Garand rifle) Magazine |
Hmm. No reference to stripper clips on the Clip (ammunition) page anymore. Man. I hate it when fucking stupid people edit my edits. I'll be fixing that.
| QUOTE (Chandon) |
| In 65 years the language has changed. Now "velocity" refers to cycle rate, "clip" means magazine, "hacker" is someone who illegally breaks into computer systems, and "organic" is vegetables grown with bugs on them. |
And the Ministry of Love is in change of torture?
Come to think of it I have seen those stripper clips before, we just were never allowed to use 'em...
The only stipper clip I've seen is ... oh, wait, PG-13, never mind...
But seriously, I wanted to throw my "Me Too!" in.
Clips aid in the delivery of bullets to an internal bullet storage unit, and Magazine is, essentially, a removable bullet storage unit all on it's own.
But seriously, I wanted to throw my "Me Too!" in.
Clips aid in the delivery of bullets to an internal bullet storage unit, and Magazine is, essentially, a removable bullet storage unit all on it's own.
Except that the magazine isnt allways removeable. The 'ammo tube' of a shotgun, or the hollowed out part of a rifle that holds rifle rounds is also considered a 'magazine'.
This is largely, I think due to the fact that for example, back in the days of blackpowder, you used to have a 'magazine' where all the spare shot and powder was kept. It was actually really just a building (Or buildings) that contained these items.
When eventualy time came that you actually had a tiny place such as this to store the 'rounds' of a black powder gun (Such as blackpowder revolvers) the term was applied to that as well because the relationship was similar.
As far as I know a 'clip' didnt actually come into usage untill there were rifles that had an actual metal clip that fitted around the ammunition, whcih you then fed into the 'magazine' on the rifle. An actual clip is really just a speedloader for such things.
This is largely, I think due to the fact that for example, back in the days of blackpowder, you used to have a 'magazine' where all the spare shot and powder was kept. It was actually really just a building (Or buildings) that contained these items.
When eventualy time came that you actually had a tiny place such as this to store the 'rounds' of a black powder gun (Such as blackpowder revolvers) the term was applied to that as well because the relationship was similar.
As far as I know a 'clip' didnt actually come into usage untill there were rifles that had an actual metal clip that fitted around the ammunition, whcih you then fed into the 'magazine' on the rifle. An actual clip is really just a speedloader for such things.
To sum up:
Magazine - where you store rounds of ammunition in a firearm. These may be permanently fixed to the weapon or detachable. Detachable is more common these days, except in revolvers, which usually remain fixed to the weapon but can open up for loading.
Clip - a thing you use to load rounds of ammunition into a magazine. More common during the period where most magazines were permanantly fixed to the firearm, but clip also exist for loading detachable magazines too. Sometimes called a speedloader.
-karma
Magazine - where you store rounds of ammunition in a firearm. These may be permanently fixed to the weapon or detachable. Detachable is more common these days, except in revolvers, which usually remain fixed to the weapon but can open up for loading.
Clip - a thing you use to load rounds of ammunition into a magazine. More common during the period where most magazines were permanantly fixed to the firearm, but clip also exist for loading detachable magazines too. Sometimes called a speedloader.
-karma
| QUOTE (KarmaInferno) |
| To sum up: |
yep yep...
think of it this way
a "clip" clips the shell into the weapon.
a "magazine" compiles a group of shells automatically
More like... A magazine is anything which stores ammunition. Be it a building, your pocket, the cylinder of a revolver, etc
And a clip is used to put ammunition into said storage magazine. <nod>
You don't always need a clip to load a magazine, but it can certainly speed things up.
-karma
You don't always need a clip to load a magazine, but it can certainly speed things up.
-karma
I like to clip pictures out of my magazine. Does that help?
Vaguely related - I assume there's a mechanical reason you can't simply use an oversized magazine for a weapon that you've custom made? Say one that holds 2x the amount of ammo? I know you'd have to adjust the tension on the springs, but could you simply weld two magazines together, after cutting off the base of one, to get a double sized mag (assuming you were skilled, and lined everything up, made a good weld, etc)?
Vaguely related - I assume there's a mechanical reason you can't simply use an oversized magazine for a weapon that you've custom made? Say one that holds 2x the amount of ammo? I know you'd have to adjust the tension on the springs, but could you simply weld two magazines together, after cutting off the base of one, to get a double sized mag (assuming you were skilled, and lined everything up, made a good weld, etc)?
People do in fact make custom magazines like that.
(Yes, magazine in this case, not clip) =)
From what you described, double or even triple capacity mags, to more elaborate rigs like welding a drum magazine to feed into a stick magzine so you have a stupid amount of ammo. And everything in between.
As long as there's sufficient tension to feed the rounds, and it doesn't get jammed up, there's little limit except the gunsmith's imagination and of course the resulting weight of the assembly.
-karma
(Yes, magazine in this case, not clip) =)
From what you described, double or even triple capacity mags, to more elaborate rigs like welding a drum magazine to feed into a stick magzine so you have a stupid amount of ammo. And everything in between.
As long as there's sufficient tension to feed the rounds, and it doesn't get jammed up, there's little limit except the gunsmith's imagination and of course the resulting weight of the assembly.
-karma
You certainly mean a magazine 
.
I can't think of a reason beyond a greater chance of jamming.
.I can't think of a reason beyond a greater chance of jamming.
Dammit. I even had magazine, then changed it before I posted. 
How great a chance of jamming, realistically? Traditionally, I've decreased the number of 1's needed to get a glitch to represent things like that. Would it be fair to say that doing such would reduce the number of 1s needed by 1?
How great a chance of jamming, realistically? Traditionally, I've decreased the number of 1's needed to get a glitch to represent things like that. Would it be fair to say that doing such would reduce the number of 1s needed by 1?
It would depend on the quality of manufacture, really.
Jury rigged stuff done in your garage might have a really good chance of jamming. On the other hand a professional custom mag done by a smith in a dedicated shop might never jam.
I'd say a variable modifier depending on the B/R success? Or whatever they call the skill in 4th Ed?
-karma
Jury rigged stuff done in your garage might have a really good chance of jamming. On the other hand a professional custom mag done by a smith in a dedicated shop might never jam.
I'd say a variable modifier depending on the B/R success? Or whatever they call the skill in 4th Ed?
-karma
It would be Armorer in SR4.
Hmmm.
Possibly a logic+armorer (3) test. Base is 4 less 1's needed, each additional success reduces that by 1.
Hmmm.
Possibly a logic+armorer (3) test. Base is 4 less 1's needed, each additional success reduces that by 1.
What KarmaInferno said .
Probably easier to just make glitches more serious with extended magazines. Something like a complex action to get the gun going again instead of a simple action, for example.
.Probably easier to just make glitches more serious with extended magazines. Something like a complex action to get the gun going again instead of a simple action, for example.
You might not have to make the magazines yourself. For the most common combat weapons, extended mags are available on the market, and usually require no modification to the weapon itself. Beta C-mags are one well-known example of very high capacity mags available for several weapon types. I believe they have issues with reliability, like nearly all high capacity magazines do, which has apparently led to the US DoD recommending that they not be used by personnel.
Semi-auto weapons are pretty darn sensitive to changes. Full auto weapons are even more closely tuned and making random changes to the action will typically screw it up. Bad magazines are a really common cause of very weird malfunction issues. I had a glock with a freaky mag that would cause class 3s or jams. (Hope the bastard who stole the mag gets killed with it in his jammed gun.)
Anyhow, making reliable extended mags is a lot harder than it looks.
Anyhow, making reliable extended mags is a lot harder than it looks.
Yeah, on that note though you can get some pretty crazy and relatively reliable gun mags for even handguns in some rare cases. WWII was a prime example of this with some of the .45 handguns. There were a few versions which could be set to full auto fire. They had an attachable buttstock and to top it off, there was a drum mag specifically designed for the handgun that would hold something like 50 rounds or so.
As a makeshift SMG was abit of a failure, clunky to use and you were, quite frankly better off not using it that way.
But the mag worked!
As a makeshift SMG was abit of a failure, clunky to use and you were, quite frankly better off not using it that way.
But the mag worked!
A magazine is what you read to reload your own clip.
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| WWII was a prime example of this with some of the .45 handguns. There were a few versions which could be set to full auto fire. They had an attachable buttstock and to top it off, there was a drum mag specifically designed for the handgun that would hold something like 50 rounds or so. As a makeshift SMG was abit of a failure, clunky to use and you were, quite frankly better off not using it that way. |
Wouldn't they be called machine pistols instead of SMGs, technically?
Well yes machine pistol. The idea though was the stock (which was full sized) did sort of turn it into a makeshift SMG.
And it wasnt any bigger than a normal .45 colt. Machine pistols are I belive usually at least slightly larger. But not necessarily so of course. I know the TMP is and I -think- the PDW classifies as a machine pistol too. Not sure.
And it wasnt any bigger than a normal .45 colt. Machine pistols are I belive usually at least slightly larger. But not necessarily so of course. I know the TMP is and I -think- the PDW classifies as a machine pistol too. Not sure.
I love minutae. Seriously. The kinds of things that people argue about are really indicative of the important aspects of a culture.
Simply by reading DS's gun debates, I can create a relatively believable gun nut^H^H^Hafficianado in game. I will hassle other players about calling their clip a magazine, or vice versa, and I will occasionally make reference to their choice of ammo.
And that's enough to make a good hook. Nifty.
Simply by reading DS's gun debates, I can create a relatively believable gun nut^H^H^Hafficianado in game. I will hassle other players about calling their clip a magazine, or vice versa, and I will occasionally make reference to their choice of ammo.
And that's enough to make a good hook. Nifty.
| QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 15 2006, 04:11 AM) |
| Yeah, on that note though you can get some pretty crazy and relatively reliable gun mags for even handguns in some rare cases. WWII was a prime example of this with some of the .45 handguns. There were a few versions which could be set to full auto fire. They had an attachable buttstock and to top it off, there was a drum mag specifically designed for the handgun that would hold something like 50 rounds or so. As a makeshift SMG was abit of a failure, clunky to use and you were, quite frankly better off not using it that way. But the mag worked! |
I think Kesslan has his facts a little askew. As far as I am aware, if there were any at all, there weren't many 1911s converted for full autofire during WWII, at least none that made it beyond an experimental stage or were widely used in any case, so I find it difficult to believe that the reliability of a high-capacity magazine for them was tested in any meaningful way. Millions of Thompsons were made for the purpose that such a weapon would serve.
He may be thinking of the Mauser M712 (full-auto Mauser with a high-cap detachable box mag and a removable stock) or Luger P08 Artillery (long-barreled Luger with a 32-round "snail" mag and removable stock). The Luger "snail" magazine was widely panned for its lack of reliability.
There are high-capacity drum mags made for the 1911, but as to their reliability, I can only imagine that it would be less-than-stellar.
Well that is possibly true. I've never afterall used on myself, but unless I'm entirely mistaken the ones for the 1911's were basically a modified Thompson mag. And while I've seen a great deal of references to these odd first attempts at autopistols in WWII very rarely is anything ever printed as to them having had any noted problems with the magazines.
Of course there's so many damn sources on these things that its hard to tell some times. Even the more well known sources such as Janes has I've found, been abit off at times.
Of course there's so many damn sources on these things that its hard to tell some times. Even the more well known sources such as Janes has I've found, been abit off at times.
As someone with some limited interest in WW2 I believe the term "machine pistol" was used to slip a new SMG design past Hitler, who couldn't understand why they would want to make smaller guns. The need for the time was apparently as a weapon that could put out heavy volumes of fire out to a few hundred feet rather than anything massive.
If you look you'll fing they had to do all sorts of things to get around Hitler's little whims, and there were many they just couldn't. Hitler was half the reason the Germans lost as well as being the reason they started the war.
If you look you'll fing they had to do all sorts of things to get around Hitler's little whims, and there were many they just couldn't. Hitler was half the reason the Germans lost as well as being the reason they started the war.
| QUOTE (cx2) |
| As someone with some limited interest in WW2 I believe the term "machine pistol" was used to slip a new SMG design past Hitler, who couldn't understand why they would want to make smaller guns. The need for the time was apparently as a weapon that could put out heavy volumes of fire out to a few hundred feet rather than anything massive. |
No, that can't be it. SMGs and machine pistols both translate as 'Maschinenpistolen' in german language. Which makes it really hard to understand the difference
.Right now I believe what in english is called a machine pistol is in german a 'Reihenfeuerpistole', which is a semiautomatic pistol modified for autofire (like the Glock 18).
| QUOTE (cx2 @ Dec 16 2006, 08:48 PM) |
| As someone with some limited interest in WW2 I believe the term "machine pistol" was used to slip a new SMG design past Hitler, who couldn't understand why they would want to make smaller guns. |
Actually, the term rose long before Hitler came to power, during WWI, with the late adoption of the MP-18i (the "MP" translating to "machine pistol"), which was the first weapon to truly be used in the role we Americans often refer to as "submachine gun". A few years later (1919), U.S. General John T. Thompson developed his version and in the process coined the term "submachine gun".
So it's really just a matter of where you come from. Germans still tend to refer to this class of weapon as a "maschinenpistolen" (HK's UMP, for example), yet they market them in English as a "submachine gun". We Americans tend to refer to "submachine guns" as one thing (a shoulder-fired automatic weapon firing pistol ammunition), and a "machine pistol" as another (a handgun capable of firing in full auto mode). The other word I've heard used to reference German full-auto capable handguns is "schnellfeuerpistole", particularly in relation to the early full-auto Mauser pistols.
| QUOTE (Raygun) |
| So it's really just a matter of where you come from. Germans still tend to refer to this class of weapon as a "maschinenpistolen" (HK's UMP, for example) |
It makes sense, of course. A machine gun is a 'Maschinengewehr' in german, or, translated verbatim into english, a machine rifle. A submachine-gun is a 'Maschinenpistole', a machine pistol.
| QUOTE |
| We Americans tend to refer to "submachine guns" as one thing (a shoulder-fired automatic weapon firing pistol ammunition), and a "machine pistol" as another (a handgun capable of firing in full auto mode). |
That definition is not that usefull, since there a few weapons called submachine-guns out there without shoulder stock, and machine pistols with shoulder stock.
| QUOTE |
| The other word I've heard used to reference German full-auto capable handguns is "schnellfeuerpistole", particularly in relation to the early full-auto Mauser pistols. |
The term 'Schnellfeuerpistole' seems to be used even less than 'Reihenfeuerpistole'.
Unless someone refers to sport shooting, where 'Schnellfeuerpistole' is a category that's even olympic (60 shot in less than 30s, if I haven't mixed up something).
| QUOTE (Butterblume) |
| It makes sense, of course. A machine gun is a 'Maschinengewehr' in german, or, translated verbatim into english, a machine rifle. A submachine-gun is a 'Maschinenpistole', a machine pistol. |
To me, it makes sense one way, and doesn't another. The fact that it fires automatically accounts for the "machine" term, but in this case "pistol" only references the type of ammunition it uses, as opposed to the class of weapon it actually is. That can be confusing.
Under pretty much any definition you find for "pistol" (at least in the English language), you will find wording similar to "a firearm designed to be held and fired with one hand" (here). While that may not technically be the best way to use a pistol, and some push the limits of that definition, it's certainly what the all weapons of the class are designed to be capable of.
What are called "machinenpistolen" were designed from the beginning to be fired from the shoulder, quite logically for the purpose of offering the user more control over the weapon when fired in full-automatic mode. As such, they tend to fall out of the most commonly-accepted definition for "pistol", even though they fire the same kind of ammunition.
| QUOTE |
| That definition is not that usefull, since there a few weapons called submachine-guns out there without shoulder stock, and machine pistols with shoulder stock. |
My own personal opinion is that the shoulder stock, along with the type of ammunition used, defines the class in this case. If it has a stock attached, it's a submachine gun. If it doesn't, and it can reasonably be fired from one hand, it's a machine pistol. This means that an MP5 is a submachine gun, while an MP5K is a machine pistol. A Glock 18 with a stock attached is, technically, a submachine gun. A somewhat controversial opinion, I know. But that's just how I see it.
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