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Rajaat99
According to Page 168 SR3, under ADEPT POWERS, the end of the first paragraph says:"The Adept's choice of powers is permanent."
Does this mean that adepts cannot purchase new powers, they can just raise the ones they have? Or does this mean that they cannot get rid of any of their powers?
Digital Heroin
It means they cannot shed previously selected powers in favor of new ones. I do seem to recall an Adept foci that gave power points that were flexible, and could be changed with meditation (Somantic Foci?), but one's innate powers cannot be changed, they can merely be expanded, and new powers gained...
Rajaat99
Dang nabbit, I thought I remember reading somewhere else that they couldn't, also. Grrr, I hate being wrong, but in this case, I think I am.
Dawnshadow
Adepts cannot swap powers. They can:
  • lose a power due to magic loss
  • initiate and take a completely new power
  • buy additional power points for 20 karma, with no restriction on the power points (note, this option is generally not recommended if MitS is being used, as it was intended as a stopgap for the lack of initiation in the SR3 core)


Adepts can take infusion foci, to give them access to powers they do not have.(SOTA64)
Adepts can take the infusion metamagic and make a centering test for brief access to a few extra powers. (SOTA64)

Now, in the infusion rules, it has a few other tidbits, like "You can only pick the power points you gain through infusion from a set of size equal to your initiation grade", but if I remember correctly, that's just a heavily recommended so the metamagic isn't your new diety rule.
mfb
QUOTE (Rajaat99)
Dang nabbit, I thought I remember reading somewhere else that they couldn't, also. Grrr, I hate being wrong, but in this case, I think I am.

you may be thinking of the line in MitS that says that adepts shouldn't be able to buy power points with karma if the rules for initiation are being used.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ Dec 13 2006, 12:41 AM)
Dang nabbit, I thought I remember reading somewhere else that they couldn't, also. Grrr, I hate being wrong, but in this case, I think I am.

you may be thinking of the line in MitS that says that adepts shouldn't be able to buy power points with karma if the rules for initiation are being used.

I think that's what it was.
Cochise
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ Dec 13 2006, 12:41 AM)
Dang nabbit, I thought I remember reading somewhere else that they couldn't, also. Grrr, I hate being wrong, but in this case, I think I am.

you may be thinking of the line in MitS that says that adepts shouldn't be able to buy power points with karma if the rules for initiation are being used.

Make that "FAQ" instead of "MitS" and you're right ...
mfb
is it? well, whichever. i think it's a silly rule/suggestion either way.
Kagetenshi
Why, out of interest?

~J
Cochise
QUOTE (mfb)
i think it's a silly rule/suggestion either way.

I won't argue that smile.gif
mfb
the cost of buying PP at 20 karma a pop is greater than the price of initiation until around, as i recall, grade 8 (assuming ordeals and groups). at that point, the adept has the choice of not upgrading his powers anymore--the equivalent of a mage who never learns or upgrades his spells, or a street sam who never gets better grades of 'ware, or a decker who doesn't upgrade his deck or programs--or spending hilariously large amounts of karma on it.
Cochise
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Why, out of interest?

~J

Can't talk for mfb, but my reasoning would be:

1. Technically it's possible to have 9 grades of initiation with lower karmic cost (i.e. 20 points of karma per point) with higher benefits: Actual increase of magic attribute (thus allowing higher individual power ratings) and additional benefits from metamagical techniques that can potentially be learned or altering your astral signature.

2. Even if you restrict the possibilities for group initiation and repetition of ordeals for initiation, an average of 3 initiatory grades can be obtained at vastly lower cost than the 20 karma rule with the same additional plusses described under point 1

3. Adept Powers are somewhat the Adept's equivalent to a magician's spells, so there's no real reason as to why an adept should not be able to expand his "spell repertoire" based on karmic expendure like a magician just because he's initiated. Or do you see a rule / suggestion that says that mages can only aquire spells via initation once you play with the initation rules? (The big mockery there being the fact that initiated mages can even reduce their karmic expendures for new spells via astral quest)

4. One of the big problems with initation is, that despite the ease at which initiatory groups can be found / founded higher grade initates (above grade 4) are something rather uncommon according to background information. So why create the necessity of high grade initiated adepts (since charatcer advancement in their given field should not be a "nono") by limiting just that single rule that allows increase of powers without creating super-initiated beings that don't quite fit with the SR background?

Kagetenshi
That's a pretty big assumption there. Only four of the Ordeals are both non-harmful and relatively easy to complete, two more are highly restrictive but survivable, one just doubles the cost of the initiation, and then there's Asceticism. Beyond that, I'm not sure why you assume a magical group—they're pretty handy for saving Karma, but overall they can easily end up not being worth it due to the restrictions and duties they impose.

Anyway, the reason I don't like it is that it unties the connection between "PP worth of active powers" and "current Magic". I suppose you could read it as adding another Power that needs to be activated with some swapping (the way you'd have to do after some Bioware and virtual magic loss), but I'm not sure that's the intention.

Regarding the "sam who never gets better grades of 'ware", I've not yet had a game get into the multi-million-nuyen-per-runner payouts that that would require. The "anchor" for a Sam is almost always WR2 or 3. Sure, a deltaware datajack only costs what, ¥16,000, but that's an expensive .1 Essence to buy back.

Cochise: I reject your comparison between powers and spells as absurd. As for your "too-high Initiation" objection, I don't see a grade 5 Adept with 15 total PP being that much less powerful than a grade 9 Adept. More so, because of the saved Karma to spend on skills or more PP.

~J
mfb
for magical groups, i've never seen the upside of joining one as opposed to just creating one in your team. the initial cost is a bit higher, and you don't get the bennies that come with a 'real' group, but you also don't get the hangups that a 'real' group can impose. and, yeah, ordeals can suck, but most of the good ones are repeatable.

as for power points and spells, the comparison isn't direct, but it's not unreasonable.
Kagetenshi
If it's reasonable, I'm not seeing it. Any chance you could explain it?

I also need to retool my example on the initiation <-> power point equivalency, but doing so would require looking at actual books. That one'll have to wait 'til after class.

None of the ordeals are repeatable without GM permission. What standards that results in are unpredictable.

Regarding creating a group, that varies widely based on gaming group. Most of the groups I've played in or GMed for didn't have the magecount to form a magical group; your mileage apparently varies.

~J
Cochise
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
That's a pretty big assumption there. Only four of the Ordeals are both non-harmful and relatively easy to complete, two more are highly restrictive but survivable, one just doubles the cost of the initiation, and then there's Asceticism.

Since I'm only refering to an average of three initaitions, the big assumption doesn't seem to be that big, since you already said that four ordeals are non-harmful and easly to complete ...

QUOTE
Beyond that, I'm not sure why you assume a magical group—they're pretty handy for saving Karma, but overall they can easily end up not being worth it due to the restrictions and duties they impose.


That's just another part of the story: While there are possibilities to actually have such restrictions, there is no necessity for having them. PC-Initiatory-Groups just being one of the extremes there ...

QUOTE
Anyway, the reason I don't like it is that it unties the connection between "PP worth of active powers" and "current Magic".


I guess you then also dislike the adept focus and the infusion in SotA'64
Btw. the 20 karma rule does not untie the relation as you state here. It's even one more limiting factor to the 20 karma rule: Since acording the rule that you cannot use more power points simoultaniously than your magic attribute allows you to, having more power points via 20 karma simply restricts the numbers o powers that can actually be used at any given time ...

QUOTE
I suppose you could read it as adding another Power that needs to be activated with some swapping (the way you'd have to do after some Bioware and virtual magic loss), but I'm not sure that's the intention.


Which intention?
The intention for the karma rule?
The intention for the (now gone) virtual magic attribute from bioware?
Or the intention of Adept foci as a necessity when using infusion foci, because the adept focus doesn't make any sense if magic doesn't always limit the number of concurrently used powers.

QUOTE
Cochise: I reject your comparison between powers and spells as absurd.


But you don't give an argument as to why spells aren't an adept's equivalent to a mages spell (and spirits for that matter) ... so I reject your rejection as non-substantial.

QUOTE
As for your "too-high Initiation" objection, I don't see a grade 5 Adept with 15 total PP being that much less powerful than a grade 9 Adept.


Since a grade 5 adept already is in those reagions where according to background only very view (and in most cases also known) practisers of magic dwelve, your example is a bit off. I did have my reasons to mention grade 4 wink.gif

But even in your example the key difference is: Your grade 9 Adept could have powers with a rating of 15 while the other would still be restricted to powers at ratings of 11 ... and he'd potentially be loaded with 9 metamagical techniques instead of just 5 ...

QUOTE
More so, because of the saved Karma to spend on skills or more PP.


That already assumes that those 9 grades where not achieved via repetion of just those four ordeals that you yourself decribed as "safe" ...
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Cochise)
I guess you then also dislike the adept focus and the infusion in SotA'64

Very much so. There's a very small collection of books that I, as a GM, put my "banned" stamp to, and that is one of them.

QUOTE
Btw. the 20 karma rule does not untie the relation as you state here. It's even one more limiting factor to the 20 karma rule: Since acording the rule that you cannot use more power points simoultaniously than your magic attribute allows you to, having more power points via 20 karma simply restricts the numbers o powers that can actually be used at any given time ...

I find it more acceptable under that interpretation.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Cochise: I reject your comparison between powers and spells as absurd.


But you don't give an argument as to why spells aren't an adept's equivalent to a mages spell (and spirits for that matter) ... so I reject your rejection as non-substantial.

It's not my responsibility to give an argument: they aren't clearly equivalent in any manner, and you haven't given an argument for why they are.

QUOTE
Since a grade 5 adept already is in those reagions where according to background only very view (and in most cases also known) practisers of magic dwelve, your example is a bit off. I did have my reasons to mention grade 4 wink.gif

Yeah, I realized that after I posted smile.gif see the bit about retooling my example after class.

QUOTE
But even in your example the key difference is: Your grade 9 Adept could have powers with a rating of 15 while the other would still be restricted to powers at ratings of 11

This is legitimate, and I'd forgotten about it. Thank you.

QUOTE
and he'd potentially be loaded with 9 metamagical techniques instead of just 5

This is not. The reason I need to consult books is to find out if there are even five significantly useful metamagics for Adepts. That's why I chose that number, because it was the point where I could say without looking "getting another metamagic won't be useful".

QUOTE
QUOTE
More so, because of the saved Karma to spend on skills or more PP.

That already assumes that those 9 grades where not achieved via repetion of just those four ordeals that you yourself decribed as "safe" ...

You're assuming repetition is allowed. We either need to come up with some kind of standard for when an ordeal is repeatable, assume that they aren't repeatable, or agree to not discuss topics where it matters whether they're repeatable because we can't make any common ground there.

~J
mfb
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
If it's reasonable, I'm not seeing it. Any chance you could explain it?

the equivalency is found in the fact that powers are what adepts do. it's their main thing. with mages, spells are--unless they're specifically built otherwise--the main thing they do. it's where most of what they bring to the team comes from. mages, even if they stop initiating, still have plenty of room for diversifying and gaining greater power, even without spending karma on skills or attributes. adepts, not so much. once you reach a certain level of achievement, it just stops being worth getting more PP. and the worst part is, it's not like PP at that level are 'better' than the cheaper PP you gained at grade 1.

adept powers are actually closer to cyberware in terms of cost and reward, i'll freely admit. the thing with cyberware, though, is that it's way cheaper than power points. there are a few cases--senseware, mainly--where adept powers are 'cheaper', but even then, the margin is slim in most of the games i've played in. karma is, for my adepts, always in demand, while money for my cybered characters has never been much of a problem. most of my groups follow the suggested guidelines for money and karma rewards, even erring a bit on the generous side for karma. it's still never enough.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
You're assuming repetition is allowed. We either need to come up with some kind of standard for when an ordeal is repeatable, assume that they aren't repeatable, or agree to not discuss topics where it matters whether they're repeatable because we can't make any common ground there.

as i recall, it clearly states which ordeals can't be repeated--namely, the familiar ordeal. that one is specified, i believe, as only being useable once; therefore, one can assume that the rest are repeatable.
Kagetenshi
Between classes, don't have time to address comparison. As for ordeals, though, the second paragraph on p60 makes it clear that all of them, apart from those that explicitly can never be repeated, can only be repeated with GM permission. It's obnoxious for exactly this reason—what qualifies for GM permission is unpredictable.

~J
Cochise
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
It's not my responsibility to give an argument: they aren't clearly equivalent in any manner, and you haven't given an argument for why they are.


~Huh?~ Why aren't they "clearly" an equivalent?
Spells / Spirits and Adept Powers are both the expression and manifestation of mana manipulation of the magic user in question. That's more than enough to make them equivalent when comparing how they can be expanded.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
This is not. The reason I need to consult books is to find out if there are even five significantly useful metamagics for Adepts. That's why I chose that number, because it was the point where I could say without looking "getting another metamagic won't be useful".


- Centering (Athletics, Stealth)
- Centering Melee
- Centering Ranged Combat
- Centering Social Skills
- Centering Build Repair Skills
- Centering Knowledge Skills
- Centering Languages (why this is different to Knowledge Skills is beyond me, but it's in the rules)
- Cleansing
- Devination
- Masking
- Sensing
- Severing
- Psychometry
- Atunement Animal
- Atunement Item
- Cognition (requires Centering)
- Empower Animal Companion (requires Atunement Animal)
- Infusion (requires Centering)
- Somatic Control (requires Centering)
- Virtuoso

That list should be more than enough to find 9 metamagical techniques that can be very usefull, provided that some of the requirements (in most cases astral perception) are met ...

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
You're assuming repetition is allowed. We either need to come up with some kind of standard for when an ordeal is repeatable, assume that they aren't repeatable, or agree to not discuss topics where it matters whether they're repeatable because we can't make any common ground there.


I already limited my line of argument to a situation where the repetition of ordeals is unimportant wink.gif
But just to get that straight as well ... availible ordeals that can be used by Adepts without interference of third parties or specialties like totems granting access to metaplanes:

- Masterpiece
- Way Ordeal
- Ascestism
- Geas
- Meditation
- Vow
- Deed
- Thesis

I guess you'd remove Ascetism due to its impact on one physical attribute. So that leaves 7 of 9 (Anyone seen Jeri Ryan in here) grades at costs (significantly) below 20. That leaves 2 initiations in a group with no ordeal ... best to be taken as the first two initiations where the costs without ordeal are lower anyways. But why stop there and not just initiate in a group without an ordeal up to the point where it is below or equals a cost of 20, thus saving those 7 initiations with ordeals for the top grades?

( 5 + 1 ) * 2 = 12
( 5 + 2 ) * 2 = 14
( 5 + 3 ) * 2 = 16
( 5 + 4 ) * 2 = 18
( 5 + 5 ) * 2 = 20

Only 4 grades missing to grade 9 ... How many ordelas did you say where safe?
Ah right ... four

( 5 + 6 ) * 1.5 (rounded down) = 16
( 5 + 7 ) * 1.5 (rounded down) = 18
( 5 + 8 ) * 1.5 (rounded down) = 19
( 5 + 9 ) * 1.5 (rounded down) = 21

So o.k. that last grade costs 1 point more than buying a power point per 20 karma rule, but it levels out with the one that was saved on the previous initation.
Oh and you said that our 20 karma Adept had a significant amout of karma to spend on skills etc. in comparison to our grade 9 initiate .. ~hmm~ 6 points less on the first two initaitions above grade 5 ...
Your grade 5 initiate would ideally have used his ordeals on his last four grades ... changing their costs to

( 5 + 2 ) * 1.5 = 11
( 5 + 3 ) * 1.5 = 12
( 5 + 4 ) * 1.5 = 13
( 5 + 5 ) * 1.5 = 15

Making it a total difference of 11 karma (17 lower on grades 2 to 5 minus 6 higher on grades 6 to 9 when buying powerpoints) ...

Sorry but to me that's not a significant number on karma to me when it comes to skill increasements in contrast to 4 less metamagical techniques and lower power rating caps.
DV8
I have never had any player actually find a group that they wanted to join. It's not that I haven't tried making it relatively accessible, but most of them just don't fit a runner lifestyle. A runner is supposed to be flexible, which most groups aren't, with the rules and the restrictions they come with, and a rigid runner is a dead runner. A runner has to have managable affiliations, and there's just no realistic way that I have found to provide that. I won't bore you with the many other reasons that I can think of, but when you're a runner, assisted initiations don't seem like a good option, to me. Your milage may vary, of course, but to remove the only totally accessible option of expanding an adept's powers would be a bad thing.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Between classes, don't have time to address comparison. As for ordeals, though, the second paragraph on p60 makes it clear that all of them, apart from those that explicitly can never be repeated, can only be repeated with GM permission. It's obnoxious for exactly this reason—what qualifies for GM permission is unpredictable.

~J

They're equivalent because they're one of the defining pieces of what makes a character, and both magical.

They're not equivalent because adept to mage, the power point is more important, more expensive, and quite probably more active. It's possible to play a mage without spells. (Conjurer). It's not possible to play an adept without power points. It's possible to have permanently active spells (quickening) -- it's not probable.


It's not a good comparison, but it is a valid one.

As for metamagics.. centering. Centering saves your life. Centering is amazingly useful. Divination is just fun.

On the other hand.. the best reason to allow both, in my opinion, is because MitS assumes it. Because the Magician's Way adept specifically disallows buying power points. Seems to me that they wanted adepts to be able to?
Kagetenshi
Objection withdrawn until I can spend more time to reevaluate the matter. I clearly need to play an Adept again sometime soon.

~J
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