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knasser
I'm looking for any cannon sources of information on how the financial system in 2070 works (or previous editions). Principally, I'm interested in the black economy. It seems that there's a large number of SINless out there. Do they use regular nuyen? If so, from what source. Do they have bank accounts? If they are part of the regular economy are they taxed? If they're not taxed, then why is this tolerated?

I'm picturing community trading schemes and local currencies being deployed by the disenfranchised and I'm wondering whose toes they'll be treading on and how powers that be will react. I'd guess that the syndicates handle some of the savings and loans for the less legitimate, but what is the general state of affairs? Was there ever anything much published on this?

Many thanks for any suggestions, links or opinions. smile.gif

-K.
nezumi
I can only apply what I know from other sources, I can't give you links unfortunately. But to answer your questions:

"Do they use regular nuyen?"

Yes, generally with certified credsticks, which work almost like cash. The credstick belongs to whoever is holding it, even though the actual money is in the bank. I find the idea that paper money is completely eliminated a little odd, so I would assume there is paper money in one form or another available (probably tokens or checks mostly) as well.

"Do they have bank accounts?"

No, but they have 'anonymous' bank accounts, if you will. Imagine it's a debit card with no name on it.

"If they are part of the regular economy are they taxed?"

At times, generally when they interact with the regular economy. If you go to the stuffer shack, you pay sales tax. If you are paying a gang for letting you squat in their apartment building, you don't.

"If they're not taxed, then why is this tolerated?"

I would assume it's because, on the one hand, if you didn't let them have money, they'd revolt and make a big mess. If you eliminated anonymous money, other people would complain, and since banks are private corporations, someone would fill that niche one way or another. Thirdly, the whole 'taxation without representation' thing would still rub a few nerves, so it's thought to be worth the loss of revenue to avoid having to pay all the extra costs associated with recognizing them as humans. Lastly, it really just isn't that much money, when it comes down to it.

"I'm picturing community trading schemes and local currencies being deployed by the disenfranchised and I'm wondering whose toes they'll be treading on and how powers that be will react."

I can believe that would come up. Tiny self-formed communities trying to declare independence, basically.

"I'd guess that the syndicates handle some of the savings and loans for the less legitimate, but what is the general state of affairs?"

I think that's very likely. Banking is ultimately a profitable business. If the banks don't want you, I'm sure the syndicates would be willing to accept it. Plus, while you have money in the Bank of Triad, you're a lot less likely to allow any Yaks in the area. It makes perfect sense to me.

"Was there ever anything much published on this?"

No idea. Check NAGtNA and the SOTA books, I guess.
Butterblume
QUOTE (nezumi)
"Do they use regular nuyen?"

QUOTE (BBB)
Starting nuyen can come in multiple forms—certified credsticks, securities, stocks in corporations, secret bank accounts, a big pile of cash and so on.

Emphasis mine.

For the rest, What nezumi said.
Konsaki
If you want to make things easier, all sales tax is figured into the cost of the items already. Thats what they do over here in Korea and I think its a good idea. What you see is what you pay.
Slump
I would assume that sales tax is already in the listed cost, because who wants to fly to singapore to get your cyber implanted, because the tax is cheaper there.
Kagetenshi
Holdings are, with very few exceptions (*cough*property tax*cough*), generally untaxed (they're taxed when the wealth changes hands). The SINless may not pay taxes when they earn money, but if they spend it legitimately, they pay taxes there, mitigating their negative effects on the tax base.

~J
Nath
As far as I remember, in the UCAS, the lack of SIN is not a crime. It "just" makes you a "probationary citizen" with limited rights. But you're still a citizen of the UCAS. While, if the UCAS kept it as in the US, not paying your income taxes is breaking the law. So, SINless persons would still be expected to pay. I guess it would be harder for the IRS to track down the SINless frauders, still.
SuperFly
I'm guessing it's a roleplaying game, and not an excercise in socio-economic structure review.

Have fun with it.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (SuperFly)
I'm guessing it's a roleplaying game, and not an excercise in socio-economic structure review.

That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard.

wink.gif

~J
nezumi
The book says specifically, without a SIN you do not officially exist. You need a SIN to get a legal job, open a bank account, own property, go to school rent an apartment, establish utility services and so forth.

So if you do pay income tax, it's a sign that you're committing a crime. Of course, if you have money and you're NOT paying income tax, you're breaking another law, so you're basically screwed either way.
eidolon
That's what fake SINs on multiple fake credsticks are for. smile.gif
Sir_Psycho
Honestly we've never bothered with SIN, money stuff, as everything we need either requires no SIN to get (basic gear) or we get through a fixer.

I'd personally like to do some more interesting things with money, but i'd rather get regular gaming sessions going first.

I know a group who used to play SR2 and were extremely paranoid about everything to the extent of rigging their vans with changing numberplates and revolving panels (that turned the exterior into a flowertruck, no kidding) that also concealed mounted weapons. They refused to deal with (very electronically traceable) Nuyen . Whenever the johnson would slip the runners credsticks at the end of a run, they would drive straight to their Yakuza contacts and trade the cred for Yak scrip. Yak scrip as determined by the GM/group was solid gold. Needless to say their safehouses were brimming with piles of gold bars. Whenever they needed to buy anything they would pick up some freshly laundered Yak nuyen in exchange for gold and go shopping. biggrin.gif

If you want some info on economy (specifically corp) look up the Neo-Anarchist SR2 book, Corporate Shadowfiles. Food for thought.
ShadowDragon8685
Don't forget Extraterritoriality.

I can see this: "The Renraku Arc - Home of Tax-Free shopping in Seattle!" Want stuff cheaply? The Renraku Arc megamall - they can charge, well, whatever they want. And unless the municipality of Seattle (or more likely, the UCAS) wants to establish an entire border checkpoint around the Arc, complete with customs offices and excise tarriff officers... There's not a damned thing that can be done about it.
nezumi
I would assume "yak script" wouldn't be gold for the same reasons corps don't use gold as their script. If you have $10,000 in gold "yak script", you don't care if the yaks are all killed off by the Russian mafia, you still have $10k in gold. If you have $10k in little papers that only have worth while the yaks are in charge, you might just pick up arms against the Ruskies to protect your investment.

Now if you were paying say 20% of the pay to intentionally convert into gold standard, that's different. But then it wouldn't be yak script (and honestly, I doubt most places would accept it. You ever try to buy groceries with a gold nugget?)
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho)
Needless to say their safehouses were brimming with piles of gold bars.

Needless to say their safehouses were target number one for any burglers in the 'plex that heard about them. wink.gif
Sir_Psycho
Piles of gold would actually be far harder to abscond with than certified credsticks, corp scrip, or most other things. Try and escape from a pro runner team laden with gold.

And anyway, going by the state of their van, their safehouses would both be secret and rather impenetrable.
DV8
QUOTE (Nath)
As far as I remember, in the UCAS, the lack of SIN is not a crime. It "just" makes you a "probationary citizen" with limited rights. But you're still a citizen of the UCAS. While, if the UCAS kept it as in the US, not paying your income taxes is breaking the law. So, SINless persons would still be expected to pay. I guess it would be harder for the IRS to track down the SINless frauders, still.

Could you source that, please, because from what I understand it is illegal for you to be SINless, much like it is illegal to come into a country without a valid visum (illegal alien), if only for the fact that you won't be able to show a valid ID upon request of a law enforcement agent. The probationary citizen, with the limited rights, etc, is once you apply for a SIN. I could be mistaken, however, which is why I'm asking.
tisoz
QUOTE (DV8)
QUOTE (Nath)
As far as I remember, in the UCAS, the lack of SIN is not a crime. It "just" makes you a "probationary citizen" with limited rights. But you're still a citizen of the UCAS. While, if the UCAS kept it as in the US, not paying your income taxes is breaking the law. So, SINless persons would still be expected to pay. I guess it would be harder for the IRS to track down the SINless frauders, still.

Could you source that, please, because from what I understand it is illegal for you to be SINless, much like it is illegal to come into a country without a valid visum (illegal alien), if only for the fact that you won't be able to show a valid ID upon request of a law enforcement agent. The probationary citizen, with the limited rights, etc, is once you apply for a SIN. I could be mistaken, however, which is why I'm asking.

SR3.238, lower left column

Probationary citizen
MYST1C
QUOTE (nezumi)
I find the idea that paper money is completely eliminated a little odd, so I would assume there is paper money in one form or another available (probably tokens or checks mostly) as well.

Actually, physical money, in various currencies, still exists in the Sixth World, as described in a number of sourcebooks.
E.g. both UCAS and CAS maintain a national currency (each called "Dollar"), Germany still keeps the Mark (physical) alongside the Euro (electronic), etc.

Physical currency leaves no datatrail - sometimes payments have to be untracable...
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (M¥$T1C)
Physical currency leaves no datatrail

Although you can expect that there's a http://www.wheresgeorge.com/-like tracking database that logs money as it's withdrawn and deposited into various banks.
knasser

Thank you for all the helpful replies. Just to be clear I want this for background and plot shenanigans, rather than direct game effects. Hence the interest in the SINless in general rather than runners.

I really like the idea of Yak script. I wonder just how extensive this would be. Could you buy things in the local grocery store with it? Or is it more of a savings and loan use that is made of it? Running their own money supply opens up a lot of possibilities for them.

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8635)
Don't forget Extraterritoriality.

I can see this: "The Renraku Arc - Home of Tax-Free shopping in Seattle!" Want stuff cheaply? The Renraku Arc megamall - they can charge, well, whatever they want. And unless the municipality of Seattle (or more likely, the UCAS) wants to establish an entire border checkpoint around the Arc, complete with customs offices and excise tarriff officers... There's not a damned thing that can be done about it.


Brilliant. That had slipped my mind. But wouldn't toleration of this devastate the UCAS economy? They're getting no sales tax on goods bought. I don't know the american terms, but in the UK we have Income tax and Council Tax. Income gets taken directly out of the paypacket (couldn't leave that particular avenue of civic disobedience available) and council tax is based on the value of the property you live in and theoretically covers local services. I would suppose that with a large number of people getting paid in the megacorp territory (probably in corporate script) and spending a large proportion of that back into the corporation, the UCAS has to make their primary form of taxation "council tax" rather than taxing income.

So if the SINless don't pay taxes (and how can they as they don't exist?), wouldn't that make it extremely difficult for them to live in areas where the SINful live? Is that why we see large areas of SINless no-man's land?

I've been reading quite a bit about economics, recently and it's fascinating. Once I accepted that the modern financial system doesn't actually make sense, I was able to get my head around it much more easily.
Slump
And that database would show..

10:27 on 10/06/2070 $20 bill withdrawn from First Bank of Stuff on 5th avenue by Joe Storeowner.

15:52 on 10/15/2070 $20 bill deposited to Second International Bank of Cheese on 14th street by John Storeowner.

----------

So, what illicit activities was that $20 involved in between the 6th and the 15th? How many hands did it change through?

Not very traceable.
knasser

I always viewed certified credsticks as being much less common. Equivalent to bearer bonds in a way. You'd get a certified credstick specially from your bank. The vast majority of transactions I saw being direct transfer of funds for the goods or service your purchasing. So your bank would know exactly what you bought for dinner that evening.
Vermithrax
I always imagined the Barrens using a barter system that happens to incorporate various scrip/nuyen conversions.

Your certified cred may say 10000 nuyen.gif but that rifle would have a better monetary conversion rate.

As for the daily things like grocery shopping, that would depend on who owns/runs the area. After all, Ma and Pa wouldnt want the upset the nice yak men who generously provide safety at such a low price by refusing yakscrip.

Im sure there are a few people who also make a living converting one type of monetary to another at a cost. Fixers for instance wink.gif .
tisoz
knasser

We have Income Tax, which is usually taken directly from the paycheck, along with several other payroll taxes and deductions.

We also have Property taxes, which are taxes on real estate and some other tangible assets. So homeowners have to pay this. The SINless could pay this as the tax collector usually just ants the money and could care less where it came from (as long as it is not counterfeit.) So a SINless may have to show a member of the IRS where they obtained the funds to pay the property tax bill, likely incurring an obligation to pay income tax.

We also have sales tax on many items. One that irritates me is on used automobiles. I can think of few things that are bouht secondhand from private individuals that need sales tax collected. That they are relatively expensive and need registered no doubt makes them patsies to the tax collector.

There are also excise taxes on cigarettes and alcohol, and energy taxes on most fuels, as well as mandatory fees and hidden taxes to fund the internet and 911 services hidden in our phone bills.

People in the United States pay about 50% of their income in various taxes, usually unaware of the extent the government has its hand in their pocket.

Back to Shadowrun, I imagine meny SINless are living in property that the government has repossessed for delinquent taxes. Many of the ownership records were lost in the crashes. Couple it with the movements neccessitated by the restructuring of countries, and likely more loss of records of ownership, and there is a lot of vacant land that no one knows who it belongs to and/or the owners current wherabouts.

The government will quickly go out and assess property taxes, they have an entire bureau set up to do so as it is their primary way of generating money. If no one came forward to pay those taxes, the government eventually winds up with the property. I imagine much the unwanted land in the Barrens reverted to the government. Property taxes go to fund things like police and fire departments, schools, libraries, etc.. No property tax income, no city services. No city services - no desire to own real estate located there. No non-public land owners - no tax base.

Something similar is going on in a nearby county. The largest state park in the state occupies about 1/4 of the county and the state pays no property taxes on this land. The remaining tax base has huge property taxes. In a dark future, the government could wind up repossessing more and more properties for delinquent taxes, further increasing the burden on the remaining tax base, causing more delinquencies, more repossessions, heavier tax burdens...
Blade
QUOTE ("SR4 BBB p38")
Technically, everybody is supposed to have a SIN (it’s illegal not to), but in reality, many people don’t


That's totally understandable. The states can't deal with the poors and decide simply not to care about them (refusing their citizenship)...
So, being SINless is illegal in theory, but the police leave them be... As long as they don't make any trouble.

knasser
QUOTE (Blade)
QUOTE ("SR4 BBB p38")
Technically, everybody is supposed to have a SIN (it’s illegal not to), but in reality, many people don’t


That's totally understandable. The states can't deal with the poors and decide simply not to care about them (refusing their citizenship)...
So, being SINless is illegal in theory, but the police leave them be... As long as they don't make any trouble.


Makes perfect sense. Everyone is a criminal. Arrest those you need to.

Isn't that the system that's being implemented at the moment?
nezumi
QUOTE (knasser)
Brilliant. That had slipped my mind. But wouldn't toleration of this devastate the UCAS economy? They're getting no sales tax on goods bought. I don't know the american terms, but in the UK we have Income tax and Council Tax. Income gets taken directly out of the paypacket (couldn't leave that particular avenue of civic disobedience available) and council tax is based on the value of the property you live in and theoretically covers local services. I would suppose that with a large number of people getting paid in the megacorp territory (probably in corporate script) and spending a large proportion of that back into the corporation, the UCAS has to make their primary form of taxation "council tax" rather than taxing income.

So if the SINless don't pay taxes (and how can they as they don't exist?), wouldn't that make it extremely difficult for them to live in areas where the SINful live? Is that why we see large areas of SINless no-man's land?

I've been reading quite a bit about economics, recently and it's fascinating. Once I accepted that the modern financial system doesn't actually make sense, I was able to get my head around it much more easily.

That's a good question, and probably one that's nagging much of the UCAS right now (after all, the initial extraterritoriality laws were put into effect not to allow for duty free shops, but to allow corporations to protect critical assets. The growth of arcologies and shopping malls in this area may have been an unfortunate oversight on the part of our well brib... errr. paid legislators.

However, there are a few notes which make this more tolerable.
-They don't get sales tax, but I do believe they can still pay property tax. After all, this land doesn't permamently belong to Renraku. As soon as they sign the deed over, it loses extraterritorial status. So I think it's safe to assume that this land is considered 'yours as long as you own it, but ultimately ours', and land tax can be levied.

-They either don't receive public services like sewage, water etc. and so aren't drawing on the local system, or they pay a much higher price for it. After all, they're a foreign nation and the fees that apply to John Q. Public don't necessarily apply to John Q. Renraku. If they're drawing on our power grid but not paying into it through sales and income tax, we need to raise their rates.

-There's certainly a significant up front cost for claiming extraterritoriality in an area, and possibly a monthly or annual fee to keep it.

-The corporations help pay our politicians so we don't have to

This sort of thing will encourage the corporations to become more and more self-sufficient, of course. Arcologies normally aren't hugely price-friendly, but when you can cut those pricey sewage and electricity bills, it becomes a little more economical. That also means fewer little facilities and one big facility, which means fewer little fees.
eidolon
QUOTE (knasser)
I really like the idea of Yak script. I wonder just how extensive this would be. Could you buy things in the local grocery store with it? Or is it more of a savings and loan use that is made of it? Running their own money supply opens up a lot of possibilities for them.


Well, it depends on how they're doing it. IIRC, in the game that the poster was talking about, the transaction was
stolen nuyen --> Yak gold --> laundered nuyen --> purchase goods
so you could pretty much shop anywhere that accepts nuyen.

However, if it were being run differently, and "Yak scrip" was just a form of paper money exchangable with the Yaks for nuyen or stuff that the Yaks are selling, it would look like
stolen nuyen --> Yak scrip --> (purchase stuff from the Yaks, Yak controlled establishments, etc) --> laundered nuyen --> purchase goods.

Same goes for the corp scrip that's mentioned throughout the game. You work for Renraku. They pay you in Renraku scrip, which you can use at any number of Renraku owned merchants and businesses, or at "partner merchants" that have worked out a deal with Renraku to accept Renraku scrip in return for favorable pricing, supply, and security deals. Or, you can exchange your Renraku scrip at your Renraku bank if you need to shop elsewhere ("So, traveling this weekend citizen?" hehe).
Kagetenshi
Scrip, not script. Script is only money on Broadway and Hollywood. Ok, maybe just Broadway.

~J
knasser
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Scrip, not script. Script is only money on Broadway and Hollywood. Ok, maybe just Broadway.

~J

rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif

(Just seen Eragon)
Blade
QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (Blade @ Dec 19 2006, 01:05 PM)
QUOTE ("SR4 BBB p38")
Technically, everybody is supposed to have a SIN (it’s illegal not to), but in reality, many people don’t


That's totally understandable. The states can't deal with the poors and decide simply not to care about them (refusing their citizenship)...
So, being SINless is illegal in theory, but the police leave them be... As long as they don't make any trouble.


Makes perfect sense. Everyone is a criminal. Arrest those you need to.

Isn't that the system that's being implemented at the moment?

So that's not just here in France ? frown.gif
eidolon
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 19 2006, 09:01 AM)
Scrip, not script. Script is only money on Broadway and Hollywood. Ok, maybe just Broadway.

~J

And you know, that's what I thought, but then I saw people using script up the page and didn't feel like looking it up. smile.gif

edit: Boom! Mighty edit key make Thak look smart.
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