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Most of the sprite powers make sence for what defines their duration/task usage.

However Stenography is unclear there. Is there a duration? does it need to be sustained. Or is this a one 'you do it, it hides it permantly'. By the description Hash reverts back after sprite leaves node.

By the flavor of what its doing, I can see stenography as a permanent effect.

What are your all takes on it?


Additionally, would you say that Diagnose (sp?) can be applied to characters other then the Technomancer? Either way, shoving one of those into a smartlink gun would be a nice bonus dice pool for combat (^.^)

Thanks for your input.
djinni
QUOTE (Blog)
Most of the sprite powers make sence for what defines their duration/task usage.

However Stenography is unclear there. Is there a duration? does it need to be sustained. Or is this a one 'you do it, it hides it permantly'. By the description Hash reverts back after sprite leaves node.

By the flavor of what its doing, I can see stenography as a permanent effect.

What are your all takes on it?


Additionally, would you say that Diagnose (sp?) can be applied to characters other then the Technomancer? Either way, shoving one of those into a smartlink gun would be a nice bonus dice pool for combat (^.^)

Thanks for your input.

Stenoraphy doesn't make mention of suration hash does, this tells you it has no duration.

yes Diagnose gives bonuses to individuals other than technomancer.
(you get +5 dice to shoot someone with a reating 5 sprite using diagnose on your gun/smartlink)
kerbarian
QUOTE (djinni)
yes Diagnose gives bonuses to individuals other than technomancer.
(you get +5 dice to shoot someone with a reating 5 sprite using diagnose on your gun/smartlink)

I don't think it would work that way for a smartlink. Diagnostics gives you extra dice for using that device. e.g. if there's a sewer control system and you want to shut off flow to a particular area, you'd roll Computer + Logic, and a sprite in the system with Diagnostics could give you extra dice on that test.

To use a smartlink, there's no test. You automatically use it successfully, and it provides a particular benefit (+2 dice for shooting). Diagnostics would make you more likely to use the device correctly (except that's already automatic), but it wouldn't make the device function any better.
wind_in_the_stones
QUOTE (Blog)
Most of the sprite powers make sence for what defines their duration/task usage.

However Stenography is unclear there. Is there a duration? does it need to be sustained.

You have sprites taking shorthand for you?

silly.gif
Cognitive Resonance
QUOTE (kerbarian)
To use a smartlink, there's no test.  You automatically use it successfully, and it provides a particular benefit (+2 dice for shooting).  Diagnostics would make you more likely to use the device correctly (except that's already automatic), but it wouldn't make the device function any better.


Perhaps not, but could it be argued that the smartlink is the computer interface for the gun?

QUOTE (BBB 247)
The Diagnostics power allows the sprite to evaluate the inner workings of an electronic device. The sprite must be accessing the device in question. The sprite can then convey this information and assist someone using or repairing the device. Make a sprite rating x 2 test; each hit adds 1 die to the character's test to use or repair the item.


QUOTE (BBB 112)
The pistols skill governs the use of all types of hand-held firearms, including hold-outs, light and heavy pistols, and tasers.


It appears that there is a use test for pistols.
ornot
cognitive resonance: An interesting interpretation, but I don't think that's how it's meant to be used. I agree with kerbarian on this matter.
Jaid
let's put this another way:

suppose it was a vehicle and you were driving it. would you get bonus dice?

suppose it was a vehicle mounted weapon on a rigged vehicle, and you were firing it. would you get bonus dice?

so let's suppose it's an electronically triggered pistol in your hand (triggered via smartlink) with targetting software being extensively used to assist in your ability to fire said weapon.

now you probably said yes to the first 2. why not to the third?
Mikado
QUOTE
let's put this another way:

suppose it was a vehicle and you were driving it. would you get bonus dice?

suppose it was a vehicle mounted weapon on a rigged vehicle, and you were firing it. would you get bonus dice?

so let's suppose it's an electronically triggered pistol in your hand (triggered via smartlink) with targetting software being extensively used to assist in your ability to fire said weapon.

now you probably said yes to the first 2. why not to the third?

Simple...
First: Are you rigged to the vehicle in the first one or just using meat?
If you are rigged:
With the first two you are interfacing with a computer and the computer is doing the work. Computer is driving the car or using actuators to aim the gun. In the third YOU are shooting the gun. You still need to aim and just because there is a sprite telling you to aim better does not mean you get bonus dice.
Also, You use a pistol, you don't "use" the smartlink. The smartlink is just aiding your use of the pistol.

QUOTE
The Diagnostics power allows the sprite to evaluate the inner workings of an electronic device. The sprite must be accessing the device in question.

And how does the sprite help you shoot better by evaluating how the device functions? You still need to aim your arm.
QUOTE
The sprite can then convey this information and assist someone using or repairing the device. Make a sprite rating x 2 test; each hit adds 1 die to the character's test to use or repair the item.

The spirit helps you USE or repair the device. The smartlink is the device not the pistol. Yay, you can see the targeting icon better, that does not make you a better shot.
Jaid
alright. so use diagnostic power on the gun, if you want to get technical about it.

and a rigger operating a vehicle mounted (or smart firing platform mounted) gun just thinks "aim the gun here" pretty much, and the gun aims there.

furthermore, we're talking about a sprite power here... how many of you have met a real life sprite? (hint: the answer *should* be none of you).

so who's to say what the sprite can or can't do? if you wouldn't have a problem in terms of balance as far as giving them the dice to rigged or remote controlled guns, then it's clearly not a balance issue. the rules say you gain skill in using the device, so if you use it on a gun, then for whatever reason you get better at using the gun.
laughingowl
To me as long as there is a significant 'electronic' porition of the device a sprite and diagnosis can 'help' you interact with that device.

A 'modern' fireaem. With smartgun, electronic ignition, possible electronically adjusted sites for range/windage, etc. A sprite can certainly help you USE (or reapir) the device.

A commlink the sprite could diagnosis and give you a bonus to any interaction directly involving the commlink. (a data search yes, 'cutting through jamming' to make a call yes, Calling somebody and 'negotiating a price for some goods, NO).

An extoic dancer wearing a Rythiuem (sp) body suit. With a sprite disgnosising it, would get bonuses on her 'dance' skill to enertain as the suits shifts ,just right, and perfectly in tune with her motions.

An Exotic dancer wearing a thong with an RFID tag in it, a sprite 'diagnosis' it cant really do much. the 'suit' isnt 'electronic/computerized', while you WOULD get bonux dice to read the RFID tag to figure out where they thong was cleaned, perhaps the ambient tempatures, or other things the RFID tag was set to record, the 'thong' does do anything so could be diagnoses.


If the device is signficantly (here is GM discrection) electonic/compuerized, then running diagnosis from a sprite gives you the bonus dice to any use of that device.

Diagnosis on your commlink.

1) Convincing you Johnson to meet you to re-negotiated payment. No help
2) To cut through the shielding in the locked vault you are in and call your buddies. YES
3) To Jump into a Drone and run it. No help (actually 'rigging' is not your commlink but the drone).
4) To detect / sniff / decrypt and then spoof the ID of somebody controlling a drone. YES. (though once you jump in / command see 3 above no help).
5) Firing a 'modern' firearms that is significantly electronic (electric firing, smartgun, etc). YES


Grey areas:
Diagnosis a cyber arm.
1) Help firing a gun (held in arm) Probably not too much else factors into firing, 'eys' body, etc.
2) Punch sombody, probably not (see above).
3) Lock fingers and maintain grip to keep from falling. Yes (check is almost purely the 'arm (well hand) rest of body doesnt factor in that much



To me diagnosis is one of the more 'powerful' utilities of the Technomancer. Letting them work magic on technological devices the way a mage does mana.

A techomancer with some time to prepare can turn a bunch of gangers into a serious threat with 'sprites' in their guns.

Nobody beats a techomancer mechanic, with a sprite in the 'drone being repaired and a sprite in the diagnositic computer helping. (while personally I do not allow both 'bonuses' to apply even though as I read rules they should/could. I do allow a bonus to apply and the other to offset any penalties that exist (poor confitions, etc).


Mikado
QUOTE
alright. so use diagnostic power on the gun, if you want to get technical about it.

ok...
...
... ... ...
That still does not solve the problem of...
You know what, forget it... If Magic can do it why the hell can't a technomancer.

QUOTE
so who's to say what the sprite can or can't do? if you wouldn't have a problem in terms of balance as far as giving them the dice to rigged or remote controlled guns, then it's clearly not a balance issue. the rules say you gain skill in using the device, so if you use it on a gun, then for whatever reason you get better at using the gun.

And here again we get into an issue of how to interpret RAW... If your GM lets you do it then more power to you. I wouldn't let them add dice to vehicle/gunnery/firearms skills unless it was to repair said object. I think they should only add dice to... say the skills in the cracking or electronics groups. The way I envision sprites to work I would never alow it in my game. You, however, are free to do what every you want. The RAW is more a set of guidelines than law and what works in one game might not work in another.
Mikado
QUOTE
A techomancer with some time to prepare can turn a bunch of gangers into a serious threat with 'sprites' in their guns.

And how does a sprite help you keep your hand/arm/body stable to fire accurately??
Next thing you will want to do is give someone with skillwires and some activesofts a high rating sprite!!! Why does it seem to be an obsession around here to break the system. Yea, rolling more dice is great... ... ... Where the hell is the fun in the game if you can pop a great dragon with a hold-out pistol. My group must be one of the worst groups because we love the runs where the team barely makes it out alive, or to plan things out with such precision so rolling dice is unnecessary. If everything was a cake-walk why bother playing.
Jaid
a few extra dice isn't going to break anything. on average, a rating 6 sprite adds 4 dice. this is roughly one more success, on average. is this good? sure. is this going to break the technomancer to make them actually useful in the real world, to some extent? no.

seriously, if it would not break anything to allow it in a rigged vehicle with a gun on it, then it's not gonna suddenly start breaking everything to allow it on a gun held in a (meta)human hand.
Mikado
Ok, lets get broken...
Elf PhysAd with max agility and skill. 12 agility (improved + exceptional) and 10 skill (improved and exceptional) and 2 specialization dice, add 2 for smartlink. 26 dice. Now add analyze device spell with say 5 net hits and a sprite with diagnostics with 5 hits. Thats 36 dice... For 12 hits and reroll failures for an extra 8 hits makes a hold-out pistol a Macross Cannon.
I have no problem with giving technomancers a boost... but why would the technomancer risk getting shot when he has a gun god street sam to shoot for him.
laughingowl
To me Diagnosis equal Analyze Device save it only works on 'electronic/computerized' devices.

I dont see why people have a problem if diagnosis power which is a more limited verision of Analyze device.

Now while RAW does cover it I would rule the two wouldnt work together, as they are both doiing the same thing (let you know how the device operates).
Jaid
QUOTE (Mikado @ Dec 31 2006, 11:56 PM)
Ok, lets get broken...
Elf PhysAd with max agility and skill. 12 agility (improved + exceptional) and 10 skill (improved and exceptional) and 2 specialization dice, add 2 for smartlink. 26 dice. Now add analyze device spell with say 5 net hits and a sprite with diagnostics with 5 hits. Thats 36 dice... For 12 hits and reroll failures for an extra 8 hits makes a hold-out pistol a Macross Cannon.
I have no problem with giving technomancers a boost... but why would the technomancer risk getting shot when he has a gun god street sam to shoot for him.

right... whereas a mere 31 dice would have just been completely fine and not overpowered at all ... ohplease.gif

[edit] just for clarification, suppose we just had the 31 dice for the holdout. base damage 4P, bumped up to 24P from hits, and say reduced to 18P from dodging and armor. now a little under 3 hits are going to come from the sprite power. is there a significant difference between 15P and 18P most of the time? no. it's irrelevant. who cares. once you start doing more damage than someone can survive, it's not important.

plus, if we go with what is imo a more likely situation, an adept using a predator loaded with ex-ex (even with errata still impressive) is dishing out 6P damage with -2 AP per simple action. with the above situation dicepool, we're looking at say 20P or 17P. if we go even further, and make it an assault rifle, then we can make both of those go over 20 damage easily with bursts.

but still, who cares? once we go beyond the one shot kill, it makes little difference as to how much you just overkilled the target by. dead is dead is dead. the 5 dice from the machine sprite is not breaking this situation, because it was already ridiculous. [/edit]
Cheops
Also a Technomancer can only have one unregistered sprite at a time just like mages and if he lends it to another I believe it is a remote service which burns all the tasts you have remaining.

I ran a group that had to fight a Wendigo for this case (they were PIs--sort of) they were working on. It used its Influence on the Street Sam to get him to put down his gun. They player said "Fine, I put it down with the barrel pointing towards the wendigo, and on my next action I tell my smartlink to fire." I think that Diagnose would help in this case (the TM wasn't ready for this so he didn't actually help). Seemed like a pretty cool use of the new wireless rules (we're all old SR2/3 players) and helped get them out of a sticky situation.
Mikado
Look... I don't have a problem with letting a technomancer use a sprite in this capacity.
I have a problem with the precedent it sets. If you let them use it on guns and such where do you stop? I would not let someone with Analyze Device use it on skillwires... I would not let a technomancer use Diagnostics on skillwires. I know we are not talking about skillwires but I would find it more comprehensible to use a sprite or a spell on skillwires before a gun.
Cheops
What's the problem with letting them use it on skillwires? All it does is help them repair the skillwires. It doesn't give dice to all skillsoft use unless the GM says so. When you use a skillsoft the skillwires are being used to run the soft. There is no test to use the skillwires. The soft would run really smoothly however.
Mikado
QUOTE
What's the problem with letting them use it on skillwires? All it does is help them repair the skillwires. It doesn't give dice to all skillsoft use unless the GM says so. When you use a skillsoft the skillwires are being used to run the soft. There is no test to use the skillwires. The soft would run really smoothly however.

Wow... you just made my point with a smartlink...
And it can be argued that even though you are rolling dice for the skill being used in the skillwires you are using the skillwires.
How would it help you use a commlink if it can't access the programming.

QUOTE
A 'modern' fireaem. With smartgun, electronic ignition, possible electronically adjusted sites for range/windage, etc. A sprite can certainly help you USE (or reapir) the device.

And I still don't see how your sprite will help you aim the gun... You are still the one who needs to do the aiming.

In essence you can't decide to just go half way. That does not make sense. If you rule that the sprite can help you use a gun then a sprite can help you use anything electronic. (when used for its intended purpose)
laughingowl
QUOTE (Mikado)
QUOTE
What's the problem with letting them use it on skillwires? All it does is help them repair the skillwires. It doesn't give dice to all skillsoft use unless the GM says so. When you use a skillsoft the skillwires are being used to run the soft. There is no test to use the skillwires. The soft would run really smoothly however.

Wow... you just made my point with a smartlink...
And it can be argued that even though you are rolling dice for the skill being used in the skillwires you are using the skillwires.
How would it help you use a commlink if it can't access the programming.

QUOTE
A 'modern' fireaem. With smartgun, electronic ignition, possible electronically adjusted sites for range/windage, etc. A sprite can certainly help you USE (or reapir) the device.

And I still don't see how your sprite will help you aim the gun... You are still the one who needs to do the aiming.

In essence you can't decide to just go half way. That does not make sense. If you rule that the sprite can help you use a gun then a sprite can help you use anything electronic. (when used for its intended purpose)

Mikado:

How does analyze device help you aim a gun?.

The sprite is making sure you and the electronic device are pefectly synced. You know you want the gun to fire 'now' but the sprite nows that it will actually take .0001 seconds for trigger to switch the current on, to ignite the primer, to expel the bullet.

The sprite allows you to realize 'now' is actually a split second before you really want it to.

Likewise the sites are peferfectly calbirated for 'you'


Sprites are paranormal, just like spells. 'Real world' can't explin how they work.

The REAL question is. Why do you have a problem with Diagnosis (which is limited to electronic devices (GM call can very on what these are in the 'shadowrun' universe), where Analyze Device can work on ANYTHING.


You example with skillwires isnt real qood as mentioned (and much like your smartlink example) it won't really help you the skillwires arent used so much as allow you to use other things. (same with smartlink).

Although personally I WOULD allow a technomancer myself to diagnosis and tempoariliy boost skillwires. If higher rating activesofts were available I personally would allow diagnosis to 'bump' the grade of the wires temporarily to allow higher activesofts to be run. (though this is my interperatation/ruling and is certainly not directly support by canon, and most games would probably NOT allow it).


You are aiming the gun (per the rules), the sprite is giving you additional dice to use the device since you are aware of its perforamance paramters in detail.


How does analyze device give you bonus dice (or do you rule this spell also doesn't work /exist)?

Short answer it is magic (or technomumbo jumbo).

Longer answer: It lets you know in detail how 'this' device works. The various operating paramters this device has and how it applies to your situation.
laughingowl
Now as a limiting factor:

I have no problem with addiction type penalties for occuring if somebody relies on the 'help' of either diagnosis or analyze device.

For 'repairs' would probably never really consider it.

However for 'use' if a person regulary (or especially if habitually) is running diagnosis / analyze device on something before using it, I would very likely make the depended on that effect. The exact effect I would have to consider depending on how abused and how often.

Cheops
QUOTE (laughingowl)
Now as a limiting factor:

I have no problem with addiction type penalties for occuring if somebody relies on the 'help' of either diagnosis or analyze device.

For 'repairs' would probably never really consider it.

However for 'use' if a person regulary (or especially if habitually) is running diagnosis / analyze device on something before using it, I would very likely make the depended on that effect. The exact effect I would have to consider depending on how abused and how often.

Actually dependence on the sprite is inherently built in. Someone who always uses a sprite to help can handle things routinely that someone cannot and can achieve things that others would not be able to. Without the sprite the dependant would not be able to do those things. It is the essence of power creep.

As far as my Wendigo example goes, I wasn't expecting a tactic like that, and arguably I probably have a better grip on technology in 2070 than the Wendigo (a largely magic dependant critter) would. I decided that the Wendigo would think that since the Sam wasn't holding the weapon anymore he couldn't use it. Therefore the Wendigo didn't bother moving since the fight was decidedly in his favour AFAHK (between fear and influence). The Sam just pointed it in the direction and told the gun to fire hoping it'd hit.

In this example the sprite would have to be in the smartlink because really the Sam is using the smartlink not the gun (in hindsight I should have made it an Intuition + Longarms test instead). Usually the sprite would need to daignose the gun and hence relay the info to the smartlink to update the user.

Now if a Sprite were helping the justification is this:

With a fuller understanding of how the gun works through the increased processing power of the smartlink (thanks to Diagnose) the sprite can advise a plan using the recoil of the gun to assist secondary fire. In essence the first bullet is being used to push the weapon into position for the second and subsequent shots. This relies on info from the gun cam as well as the PAN to generate the necessary environmental parameters for the force calculations.

With a little imagination (that's what RPing is all about) you can usually find a way to justify techno/magi-babble in RL terms. As long as it doesn't involve too much suspension of disbelief (i.e. there was only 1 bullet left or the gun somehow moved itself) then it should be perfectly plausible.
Eben McKay
We all know that the smartlink is more than just a glorified set of virtual crosshairs (since it can also tell the range to the target, distinguish friendly and hostile foes, etc). I see the sprite power as an addon to the smartlink program, adding the processing power of the sprite to the smartgun software to do some things the program was not previously capable of.

Take for instance predictive targetting: a second set of crosshairs is placed on the desired target at the location the target is predicted to move into based on current velocity and angle. A virtual tunnel connects the user's crosshairs to the target's crosshairs. The gun in essence encourages the user, via advanced near-instantaneous mathematical analysis of the target's style of movement, to lead the target in the most precisely effective fashion possible.

In addition, the gun can be made to analyze and adjust for the movements of the user. It records the arm motions, posture, and height of a dodging, running, jogging, tumbling user and formulates firing solutions based on these motions. It records the felt recoil and barrel rise of the gun when it is fired in these various stances and makes recommendations to the user on where to fire to most often hit the target.

Those are some possible justifications for how it might work. From a game balance viewpoint I just say TMs are screwed enough already, so I might as well let them have this neat trick.
Blog
Wow great discussion so far. Something else to consider for discussion.

Machine sprites do have another power "Gremlins" which negates dice (by making glitches). So one could consider, If the device can suffer gremlins, it surely can be modified by Diagnostics for a boost.

Mostly, I was looking at possibly ways I can 'aid' the team during eventual runs which wont require hacking or will have simple enough systems to glaze over.
Cheops
QUOTE (Blog)
Mostly, I was looking at possibly ways I can 'aid' the team during eventual runs which wont require hacking or will have simple enough systems to glaze over.

That's pretty tough to do for a Technomancer. Everything that is springing to mind requires at least a little hacking. If only just to find the data traffic and spoof it.
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