I remember people saying that the SR3 hidden life pact was a lot more powerful than the 4th edition one. The fourth edition one just grants eternal life and immunity to normal weapons.
I remember the SR3 hidden life pact granting bonuses to physical stats and insanity. Is that true?
Full Version: Old-School Hidden Life pact.
Immunity to age, Immunity to Pathogens and Toxins, Immunity to Normals Weapons, armor equal for the spirit's Force + Spirit Energy on top of the Immunity to Normal Weapons, and bonuses to all attributes equal to a spirit's Force.
The downside is mental flaws with a total value equal to the spirit's Spirit Energy
An essence 6 character hiding a force 1 spirit energy 1 spirit's life would have the equivalent of 14 points of hardened armor and +1 to all attributes and a 1 point mental flaw. This is why creating the weakest possible ally spirits and knocking yourself unconscious until they go Free and binding them until you find one with Hidden Life is a classic munchkin tactic.
Also, if the hidden life vessel is destroyed the spirit is instantly and permenantly instantly, a limitation that is not present in SR4.
The downside is mental flaws with a total value equal to the spirit's Spirit Energy
An essence 6 character hiding a force 1 spirit energy 1 spirit's life would have the equivalent of 14 points of hardened armor and +1 to all attributes and a 1 point mental flaw. This is why creating the weakest possible ally spirits and knocking yourself unconscious until they go Free and binding them until you find one with Hidden Life is a classic munchkin tactic.
Also, if the hidden life vessel is destroyed the spirit is instantly and permenantly instantly, a limitation that is not present in SR4.
And don't forget, for those times that something gets past that hardened armor, that you also possess the power of regeneration. Although I always read it as a critter or sentient being getting the powers instead of the armor, not in addition to it.
But GMs have a lot of leeway in how powerful to make it, since a sentient being getting used as a vessel for the hidden life power is presented as a "what-if", qualified by a "presumably". Even the mental flaw disadvantage is only an option - the GM could ignore it. Although the GM could also rule that you are controlled completely by the spirit, just as a normal critter would be.
Still, I wouldn't call the SR4 version weak. Immunity to normal weapons is still an awesome ability, especially since it stacks with normal dodging and damage soaking.
But GMs have a lot of leeway in how powerful to make it, since a sentient being getting used as a vessel for the hidden life power is presented as a "what-if", qualified by a "presumably". Even the mental flaw disadvantage is only an option - the GM could ignore it. Although the GM could also rule that you are controlled completely by the spirit, just as a normal critter would be.
Still, I wouldn't call the SR4 version weak. Immunity to normal weapons is still an awesome ability, especially since it stacks with normal dodging and damage soaking.
What were those flaws?
And did free spirits gain karma on their own in old-school SR?
And did free spirits gain karma on their own in old-school SR?
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| What were those flaws? |
The GM is free to give them any mental flaw he pleases. If they need inspiration and rules to implement the flaws, they are pointed to the mental flaws listed in the SR Companion. Since you will probably ask, they are: Amnesia, Combat Monster, Combat Paralysis, Compulsive, Flashbacks, Impulsive, Illiterate, Oblivious, Pacifist, Phobia, Sea Legs, Sea Madness, Sensitive Neural Structure, Simsense Vertigo, Total Pacifist, Uneducated, and Vindictive. I'd probably give them a Dark Secret for free.
I always felt the Hidden Life power was mostly for npcs and munchkins.
| QUOTE |
| And did free spirits gain karma on their own in old-school SR? |
No, they had to get it from PCs and NPCs, though there were some ways that were easier to generate income than in SR4. Like the wealth power, that got its balls cut off in SR4. They should call it something other than wealth, because compared to the original rules, the SR4 rules are a joke. Originally it goes: every 30 days the spirit can magically produce "wealth". The roll was (SE)D6*F*1000. (And a spirit with Personal Domain pretty much doubled it as SE got doubled while in its personal domain.) My favorite was the Oil Tycoon free spirit, though some would argue that using the power to produce black gold is not allowed.
Mwah hwah hwah, GIVE THEM SEA LEGS!
Could be quite appropriate in regards to a sea spirit.
Wierd compulsions can also be fun.
"Oh, your spirit has energy of 2 now, roll willpower."
"Why? Wow, all ones."
"You start licking the hydrant."
"Oh, your spirit has energy of 2 now, roll willpower."
"Why? Wow, all ones."
"You start licking the hydrant."
If you were infected with Strain III, would you and the spirit die?
Quite possibly. Id allow it. From what my edition of MitS says its just SE in flaws, not force+SE.
While we are on the subject. Suppose we have a blood mage (hold on, this is munchkin on Emo Samurai's level, so its a doozie) with a few levels of inatation on him, invoking, channeling and masking. He goes and summons up a reasonable force great form blood spirit (say 2), it goes free, he binds it and forces it to bottle him (aka use its hidden life power). He now has +2 to all atts, +3 armor (immunity to normal) and a pile of other badassness. All well and good, if a 'BIT' insane.
A long while later when the now bound sprit has a force of 7 (hey, it was a sneaky sprit) and a SE of 6, our mage now has +13 armor +7 atts, and is bonkers batshit crazy. He summons up a HELLACIOUS face-melter of a great form blood sprit (force 9), and channels it.
A) What would happen, with him now being possessed by one spirit and basicly sucking the power of another (more powerfull) one down.
B) Could the voodoo houngan from down stairs FINALLY get his Loa to possess this guy and toss him out a window because hes sick of the blood running down the walls in the middle of the night?
While we are on the subject. Suppose we have a blood mage (hold on, this is munchkin on Emo Samurai's level, so its a doozie) with a few levels of inatation on him, invoking, channeling and masking. He goes and summons up a reasonable force great form blood spirit (say 2), it goes free, he binds it and forces it to bottle him (aka use its hidden life power). He now has +2 to all atts, +3 armor (immunity to normal) and a pile of other badassness. All well and good, if a 'BIT' insane.
A long while later when the now bound sprit has a force of 7 (hey, it was a sneaky sprit) and a SE of 6, our mage now has +13 armor +7 atts, and is bonkers batshit crazy. He summons up a HELLACIOUS face-melter of a great form blood sprit (force 9), and channels it.
A) What would happen, with him now being possessed by one spirit and basicly sucking the power of another (more powerfull) one down.
B) Could the voodoo houngan from down stairs FINALLY get his Loa to possess this guy and toss him out a window because hes sick of the blood running down the walls in the middle of the night?
A) He can take a PAC to the nads and not care.
B) Maybe if it's Ghede's rival and instantiated at high force.
B) Maybe if it's Ghede's rival and instantiated at high force.
Your armor calculations make no sense. Hidden Life grants Immunity to normal weapons to the vessel and powers are based off of thir possessor's stats, meaning that the blood mage will always have twice his essence in armor. For most mages this will be 12 or 10.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| And don't forget, for those times that something gets past that hardened armor... |
Hardened armor would kick ass, but I don't see it anywhere in the rules. Looking at page 117 of magic in the shadows, I see armor equal to spirit energy plus force, immunity to age/normal weapons/pathogens/toxins, and regeneration, as well as attribute increase equal to spirit force.
Is that it? Am I missing something? Do spirit powers somehow apply to characters who have pacts with said spirits? More important, what is the complete list benefits and detriments for Hidden Life pacts, and what books are they in?
When I said hardened armor, I was talking about the immunity to normal weapons, which acts as hardened armor (unless you have killing hands or a weapon focus). The reference you gave (pg. 117 of MITS) is where all of the rules for it are.
Immunity to normal weapons is described in the BBB and the Critters book, while regeneration is described in the SR Companion (for shapeshifter PCs, who have it) and the Critters book (which comes with the SR3 GM screen).
Immunity to normal weapons is described in the BBB and the Critters book, while regeneration is described in the SR Companion (for shapeshifter PCs, who have it) and the Critters book (which comes with the SR3 GM screen).
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| This is why creating the weakest possible ally spirits and knocking yourself unconscious until they go Free and binding them until you find one with Hidden Life is a classic munchkin tactic. |
Six times. Then you've lost all your Magic points and are a burnt-out mundane.
Or if you initiate first, then 6 + your initiate level. Still not very many. Got to hope you get lucky the first time.
You don't lose a magic point if you take the familiar ordeal.
True but you can only take each ordeal once.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| <a very clear explanation> |
That makes perfect sense, thanks!
| QUOTE (Bodak @ Jan 10 2007, 08:27 AM) |
| True but you can only take each ordeal once. |
Maybe, if your GM is a dick. Probably not, if they allow munchkin type play. An ordeal can only be repeated with GM permission, pretty much the same as carrying out any in game action. Some type of ordeals can only be performed once, Oath is given as an example. However, it is canon that some beings have multiple ally spirits. Therefore, it is canon that this is an ordeal that should be permitted to be repeated.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Your armor calculations make no sense. Hidden Life grants Immunity to normal weapons to the vessel and powers are based off of thir possessor's stats, meaning that the blood mage will always have twice his essence in armor. For most mages this will be 12 or 10. |
Right, I had gotten confused when it was mentioning the "Armor equal to force+spirit energy" thing. So ignore my comment, I was very wrong. However, consider the evil that INW would grant a shifter (with an essence of 9). Icky.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I wrote up a more modest hidden life pact for 4th edition. I have it on reasonably good authority that the thing where characters got Immunity to Normal Weapons (which acted as a crap tonne of armor) and a crap tonne of armor that stacked was not intentional. But that is what it said.
-Frank
-Frank
| QUOTE (tisoz) | ||||||||
Maybe, if your GM is a dick. Probably not, if they allow munchkin type play. An ordeal can only be repeated with GM permission, pretty much the same as carrying out any in game action. Some type of ordeals can only be performed once, Oath is given as an example. However, it is canon that some beings have multiple ally spirits. Therefore, it is canon that this is an ordeal that should be permitted to be repeated. |
I never said you can't have multiple ally spirits. I said you can create six ally spirits, each taking one magic point. You can also take the familiar ordeal, once, which creates an ally spirit without costing you the magic point (until it goes free).
I hope that's clearer now.
As I have suggested in the past a cheap and nasty way to garner Force 1 free spirits at minimal risk is to infiltrate schools, use Aura Reading to detect naieve magical talent, and burn them out.
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