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Grayson7
My gaming group wants me to run Shadowrun 4th edition after my Dungeons and Dragons game is done, which should be in about 4 to 5 sessions. I am still undecided as to whether or not I am going to do it. I have read Shadowrun 4th edition but I am unsure about a few things and I am hoping that someone can clear them up for me.

On page 84, it states that "no piece of gear purchased at character creation can have a rating higher than 6." That is fine but I noticed that nearly all of the gear in the back of the book (except for Tranq patches and Damage Compensators) was capped at 6 or less. The statement on page 84 implies that higher gear ratings exist (by virtue of the phrase "at character creation"). My question is does Muscle Toner rating 5 or Mag Lock pass key rating 8 exist or are the caps in the back of the book the limits of technology available in the world, barring new supplements?

On page 164, it states that spells, spirits, and magic items (foci) have a force rating "measured on the same scale as metahuman attributes (natural 1 to 6)"; however, on page 171, it states that the maximum force for a spell is up to twice the Magic attribute of the caster (granted the drain will be physical for going over Magic attribute). This seems to be something of a contradiction or are spells an exception. Are there spirits and foci that have ratings higher than 6 that can be conjured?

I do realize that as a gm, one has the authority to overrule the book and decide that he can have gear ratings of 100 and spirits with a force of 77 if he sees fit. What I want to know is what are the actual rules regarding hard caps for gear, spirits, and foci?

Lastly, I read the rules for rewarding karma after an adventure. My adventures have a tendency to span several sessions. I would prefer to award karma by the session. What would be a good way to implement this? I guess I am wondering if any of you other gms award karma by the session instead of the adventure. If any of you do, how much do you award?

Any assistance would be most appreciated. Thank you.
Fortune
QUOTE (Grayson7)
My question is does Muscle Toner rating 5 or Mag Lock pass key rating 8 exist or are the caps in the back of the book the limits of technology available in the world, barring new supplements?

The Ratings listed in the books are pretty much it (barring other supplements).

QUOTE
Are there spirits and foci that have ratings higher than 6 that can be conjured?


It is rather common for Spirits and Spells to have a Rating of higher than 6. Foci can as well, although they'd be much rarer, being very expensive to make and bond.

Banaticus
Magic is a special attribute. Normally, an attribute can't be raised past your racial maximum. But there are special ceremonies that you can go through (after spending nuyen and karma) that allow you to raise your magic attribute by one point. These ceremonies, or initiations, require a new ceremony (more expensive in every way) every time a magician wants to raise his Magic by another point. After the ceremony, the magician's Magic rating doesn't raise automatically, he has to spend more karma to raise it.

There's no real cap on a Spirits force.

Some of the bigger weapons have a higher availability, like monofilament whips, rocket launchers, off the top of my head I think the highest level of wired reflexes might not be available at character creation.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Grayson7 @ Jan 8 2007, 10:59 AM)
Lastly, I read the rules for rewarding karma after an adventure.  My adventures have a tendency to span several sessions.  I would prefer to award karma by the session.  What would be a good way to implement this?  I guess I am wondering if any of you other gms award karma by the session instead of the adventure.  If any of you do, how much do you award?

We are doing well with an average of 3 Karma per 5 hour gaming session, one gaming session per week.
This averages to about 130 Karma per year.
Thanee
QUOTE (Grayson7)
Lastly, I read the rules for rewarding karma after an adventure. My adventures have a tendency to span several sessions. I would prefer to award karma by the session. What would be a good way to implement this? I guess I am wondering if any of you other gms award karma by the session instead of the adventure. If any of you do, how much do you award?

I do that, usually. 1-3 Karma per session, depending on how much was achieved or how difficult things were.

Roughly like this...

1 - normal
2 - high difficulty or great achievement
3 - high difficulty and great achievement

Bye
Thanee
Trigger
You can get character ratings above 6 through only a few ways...one is the aptitude quality, which allows you take one skill up to a maximum of 7 instead of six. The 6 cap is not too terrible a thing to worry about at chargen since you can only have one skill at 6 at generation anyway, or two at 5. All your other skills cap at 4 at chargen. Also spirits can be summoned at forces higher than 6, as well as foci being made at a Force higher 6 as well. Only a few things actually go past rating 6 in the BBB, the Body, Strength, and Agility Ratings of cyberlimbs can go up to rating 7, tranq patches can go to rating 10, area and directional jammers can go to rating 10 as well, also the thermal dampening, nonconductivity, fire resistance, insulation, and chemical resistance modifications that can be applied to armor do not show a cap rating, foam and plastic explosives go up to rating 15, and bows are bought based on their rating which again shows no cap in the BBB. That is everything in the Gear section of the BBB that has a possible rating over 6 and thus cannot be bought at chargen at a rating over 6.
Grayson7
First of all, thank you all for taking the time to reply to my post. I appreciate it.

Based on your replies, I an concluding that spells, spirits, and foci do not have a practical limit as far as rating after character generation. The only limitation is the caster/owners ability to produce the nuyen and karma required in the case of foci. Spells and spirits are limited by the Magic rating of the caster, which has a maximum of 6 plus his Initiate rating. If he exceeds his Magic rating the drain is physical. The absolute maximum force for a spell or spirit is twice his Magic rating.

Mundane gear, as in non-magical, including cyberware and bioware, is restricted to the maximum ratings listed in the gear section of the rulebook. These ratings are the highest possible that exist in the world, even after character creation, barring additional supplements.

In theory, this seems like this is a bit harsh on non-spellcasters. Of course, in practice this may not be the case. I reserve judgement since I haven't actually played the game (at least not 4th edition).

Also, I like the 3 Karma per session idea, perhaps with a point or two extra for exceptionally tough sessions. It seems fairly balanced.

Thanks again.
Thanee
QUOTE (Grayson7 @ Jan 8 2007, 12:54 PM)
Mundane gear, as in non-magical, including cyberware and bioware, is restricted to the maximum ratings listed in the gear section of the rulebook.  These ratings are the highest possible that exist in the world, even after character creation, barring additional supplements.

At least when it comes to mass-production.

There might be individual pieces or experimental pieces with higher ratings.

These might be the target of a run. wink.gif


In theory, mages overshadow everything in Shadowrun, as they are effectively open-ended.
In practice, I'm not seeing it yet. Even reaching the limit for mundanes is pretty tough, especially when it comes to deltagrade ware and such.

In some areas (i.e. mundane Hacking), the limits are reached pretty fast, though.


Karma is also a balancing factor here... if you give too much Karma, awakened characters will raise in power a little too fast... but I doubt, that 3 per session as a base will result in any problems, considering how expensive everything is (initiation, increasing Magic, improving skills, learning spells, binding foci). smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
NightRain
QUOTE
Based on your replies, I an concluding that spells, spirits, and foci do not have a practical limit as far as rating after character generation. The only limitation is the caster/owners ability to produce the nuyen and karma required in the case of foci. Spells and spirits are limited by the Magic rating of the caster, which has a maximum of 6 plus his Initiate rating. If he exceeds his Magic rating the drain is physical. The absolute maximum force for a spell or spirit is twice his Magic rating.


Ok, the first thing to realise is that ratings in Shadowrun can go higher than 6, but they are based on the general rule of thumb that 6 is the highest a non modified human can ever really achieve. This is only a rule of thumb though, and an unwritten one at that. Metahumans for example can have attributes higher than 6, you can get edges that let you push a skill above 6 etc. Some things have explicitly written limits, and they'll be clearly explained in the rules. Skills are a good example of this.

Other things have less defined limits, but they still fit in the same scale. Spirits are an example of this. You can summon a spirit higher than your magic if you want, but a spirit at force 6 is still rating 6, which means it's a powerful being, but one that an unmodiefied human with skills and stats of 6 (ie, the most perfect human to ever exist) could deal with on an equal basis. A force 9 or 10 spirit is a very powerful being, far beyond the best humanity can produce, even though it can be summoned by a mere human smile.gif

QUOTE
Mundane gear, as in non-magical, including cyberware and bioware, is restricted to the maximum ratings listed in the gear section of the rulebook. These ratings are the highest possible that exist in the world, even after character creation, barring additional supplements.


I wouldn't say that's valid. Those ratings are the highest you're likely to be able to buy, but someone, somewhere will have developed something better and faster, even if it's only a prototype, or in the heart of the biggest research lab of one of the megacorps. There is always leeway as a GM to add something like that in, but they are incredibly unique and rare, and exist only if you as a GM decide they do. I guess all of that's obvious, but I'm just trying to get across the point that you aren't even slightly doing anything wrong if you decide to have an adventure that somehow lets the players get hold of a maglock passkey above rating 6, powerful and unique items like that do exist, just not in the scope of the main rule book.

QUOTE
In theory, this seems like this is a bit harsh on non-spellcasters. Of course, in practice this may not be the case. I reserve judgement since I haven't actually played the game (at least not 4th edition).


It is unfair in someways and not in other ways. Cyberusing characters and unmodified characters will hit some limits. They do have skill and attributed maximums, and cyberware is limited in how much it can add to a given stat. Once this happens, they need to expand "sideways" rather than upwards. That is to say, develop new skills rather than improving old ones. Of course, most runners should have retired by the time they hit this point smile.gif

Magic using characters can theoretically keep improving and improving their magic stat, and hence the potency of their spells and spirits almost infinitely, however this sounds better in theory than it actually is. Increasing magic is incredibly expensive, because you have to undergo the ritual to improve your magic maximum, and it costs LOTS of karma. You then have to spend more karma to actually improve your magic ability, because just increasing the maximum potential with the ritual doesn't automatically improve your magic rating, it just changes your potential limit. Then of course is the fact that magic using characters have to spend karma on spells, adept abilities, ally spirits, foci etc. They use karma the way normal characters use money, and there simply isn't enough of it to go around for them to get too out of hand in most games smile.gif
Banaticus
Some cyberware isn't available at its top rating at character creation and a lot of bioware isn't available at its top rating. For instance, look at Damage Compensators. They go up to rating 12, but you can only buy up to rating 4 at character creation. See also Skillwires, which can go up to rating 5, but can only be bought up to rating 3. The list is pretty big, IMHO.
otakusensei
In my game commlink ratings are capped at 6 because of Technomancers. Even with all their wiz powers they wouldn't be able to touch a mundane hacker running a 12/12/12/3 commlink array with rating 12 agents to back him up.
We tend to have multi session adventures and I like to use the voting system from the core book. I award every player 1 karma for showing up and living, then we vote on the points they list in the book. Top of my head I believe it's Role playing, Drama, Leadership, Humor and Bravery. Players must nominate someone, cannot nominate themselves but can vote for themselves. The majority winner gets 1 karma point, a unanimous win gets 2. We tend to have 5-6 players so it works out alright if the players spread it out but it gives them a feeling of control and makes them more aware of their actions. Based on what they were able to accomplish I'll also award 1-2 additional points if they were able to complete difficult situations in creative or innovative ways or if they complete major mile stones in the story arc.
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