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ElFenrir
Ok, ive come up with a few in my dealings with SR4...these may not be to everybody's taste, but perhaps someone else can also find some uses for them.


Chargen:

BPs are adjustable for campaign level, but this is assumed to use typical 400 BP starting.

Starting skills are still limited by 1 6, rest 4 or less, or 2 5's, rest 4 or less.

However, hard cap is removed. Starting skills may not go over 6...BUT with the hard cap removed, Aptitude has changed to allowing +1 die to a skill. This may be purchased at chargen. BP cost for Aptitude is the same, and may be taken once.

Karma cost for increasing skills past 6 are as follows:
7-8: 3x new skill level
9-10: 4x new skill level
11+: 5x new skill level

This allows for the old 'best of the best', but also shows that those people will devote most of their time to those skills, and not others, with the high Karma cost. Still, the option is there, and i enjoy options.

Skill Groups are still limited to 4 at chargen. However, a Skill Group may not go past 6...to increase higher, one must break the skill group and use the karma cost above for raising seperate skills. (To allow skill groups to go past 6 would be a little TOO extensive.)

BPs are no longer limited to where you can spend them. If you want a rich character instead of attributes or skills, go ahead. If you want alot of attributes in opposition to skills or money, go ahead. I don't believe in forcing limits, but this would take some responsible players. Its suggested that if you do not cap BPs on anything, you should use the Hit Limit on skills mentioned below, in addition to the defaulting rule.

One may have more than one 6 at the start in an attribute. However, costs are the same. So, starting with 2 6's would cost 130 BPs, so people choosing this route will still eat up BPs at an alarming rate. As i said, i believe in opening up options.

Limitations on how many spells or complex forms one may have is still limited as per SR4.

Technomancer complex forms, however, are now purchased as spells equal to Resonance rating(3 BP each). This has already been suggested by a few people, but i really like it to help technomancers out.



In Game:

Defaulting is too easy for some boosted attributes, especially with the new no limit. Defaulting is now harder, in these ways:

If a person does not have any skill that is CLOSE to the defaulting skill(Ie, they want to use a pistol, but have NO firearms skills), they default at Attribute -3, minimum of 1 die.

If a character HAS a defaultable skill, they default to their attribute at -2. (If a person has Automatics, they can default to Pistols at Agility -2, minimum 1 die.)

If the skill has no skill group, but is still defaultable, defaulting is Attribute -3.

Any attempt with a threshold of 2 or greater may not be defaulted on. Harsh, but it forces people to buy the skills.

Another thing i also had an issue with was the classic 12 AGL elf with a touch of Blades training of 1 equaling the 80 year old master with Blades(Swords)7(+2) and an Agil of 2. It took awhile to figure out a way to make high Skill ratings desirable, but still make low skills viable. The only thing i can think of at the moment is limiting hits to 2x skill rating. It allows someone with a 1 to still do some basic duties, and increases fast enough to make middle skills still workable, but makes high skills in your main duty desirable. (This one has also been discussed before, and i think a 2x limit is enough of a limit. a 3 may only still recieve 6 hits maximum.)

Called Shots are traded 2 dice for +1, maximum +4(for 8 dice). This was also discussed somewhere.

(QUICK NOTE: Im aware some folks have thought up things similar...and im not trying to publish these as my own...but things i like to use, just so you know. Anyone who originally thought these up, please feel free to say so. smile.gif)



Ill be back later with some more. biggrin.gif
ElFenrir
Adding a few things forgotten(wanted to edit in new post)

For defaults, hits are limited to 2. You might say its the same as having a skill of 1, thats true...but someone with a skill of 1 may attempt something that is higher than a 2 threshold.

And specializations act the same...they add 2 dice to roll, and 1 hit to the hit limit. So, someone with Pistols(Semi-Automatics), may get a total of 5 hits when using SA pistols(2x2+1), and 4 hits when using other kinds of pistols.

Jaid
QUOTE (ElFenrir)
For defaults, hits are limited to 2. You might say its the same as having a skill of 1, thats true...but someone with a skill of 1 may attempt something that is higher than a 2 threshold.

by which i assume you meant try and fail, since you can't get even 1 net hit when you're capped at 2 hits and you've got a threshold of 2.
ElFenrir
Ahh, hell...thats right. Sometimes the threshold thing still leaves my mind at times. Have to think about the low end stuff. I mean, the hit limit can work...threshold 3 means that its pretty difficult and might be beyond that of someone with a 1 skill(a 2 skill can eek by with one hit.)

A 1 skill would be limited by a threshhold of 1 basically under this. If the 1 skill person were specialized now, theyd have a limit of 3 hits on the specialization and be able to hit a threshold 2.

A 1 skill means that...youve toyed around with it. Someone who has a surgery of 1, by the rules, can under the circumstances preform brain surgery if they have a beefed up Logic. Now, im not saying it has to be the MOST realistic thing in the world. However, this to me is a LITTLE shady. So perhaps a skill of 1 being limited to a threshold of 1 isnt so bad(2 for a specialization.)

These are still in the running, but i just think there is a way to do this.
lorechaser
I'd simply say anyone that defaults can't beat a threshold of 2. You can succeed on simple stuff, but nothing intricate.
Butterblume
QUOTE (lorechaser @ Jan 11 2007, 05:41 PM)
I'd simply say anyone that defaults can't beat a threshold of 2.  You can succeed on simple stuff, but nothing intricate.

You can beat a threshold of 2. You just can't gain net hits on that threshold.
Aaron
QUOTE (ElFenrir)
For defaults, hits are limited to 2.

You didn't think that having to roll (Attribute - 1) was harsh enough?
Wakshaani
How about hits on any test are capped at Skill +1?

Thus, skill of 0 can net 1 hit only (Thus keeping threshhold 2 out of reach), skill of 1 can only manage 2, and so on?

Suddenly, skills are *way* important and attributes aren't as alluring as before. The Young Turk with Agility 6 and Blades 2 faces the Aged Master with Agility 3 but Skill 5 ... the Turk tops out at 3 hits, no matter how well he rolls, while the Aged Master can collect 6, if he rolls well enough. In raw terms, they're evenly matched (8 dice each) but, teh Aged Master can 'explode' far beyond the rookie's level.

...

Dang, I like that so much that I might use it for my own game! smile.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
... the Turk tops out at 2 hits, no matter how well he rolls ...

3! wink.gif
Serbitar
QUOTE (Wakshaani)
How about hits on any test are capped at Skill +1?

Thus, skill of 0 can net 1 hit only (Thus keeping threshhold 2 out of reach), skill of 1 can only manage 2, and so on?

Suddenly, skills are *way* important and attributes aren't as alluring as before. The Young Turk with Agility 6 and Blades 2 faces the Aged Master with Agility 3 but Skill 5 ... the Turk tops out at 2 hits, no matter how well he rolls, while the Aged Master can collect 6, if he rolls well enough. In raw terms, they're evenly matched (8 dice each) but, teh Aged Master can 'explode' far beyond the rookie's level.

...

Dang, I like that so much that I might use it for my own game! smile.gif

Well thats pretty old house rule.
There is also a new version:
Hits above the skill level are halved (round up).

Further house rules, as always, here.
ElFenrir
QUOTE
uddenly, skills are *way* important and attributes aren't as alluring as before. The Young Turk with Agility 6 and Blades 2 faces the Aged Master with Agility 3 but Skill 5 ... the Turk tops out at 2 hits, no matter how well he rolls, while the Aged Master can collect 6, if he rolls well enough. In raw terms, they're evenly matched (8 dice each) but, teh Aged Master can 'explode' far beyond the rookie's level.


Thats what my intentions were. I wanted low Skills to be useful in some way, but at the same time, i didnt want them to run into the problems that they are.

The +1 method might work more than doubling. Doubling helps well at a high level...but then again, if we remove skill caps...yes, yes, i think the +1 might fit in this method about right! biggrin.gif

I was considering the +1 method at first, actually. But, with mind still in 'hard cap' mode, i thought that might hinder high skill people too much. Remove the skill cap, and the skills can go higher. And yes, that does make skills more important.



QUOTE
You didn't think that having to roll (Attribute - 1) was harsh enough?


not with what i have seen. A twinked agility character can basically use 70% of the skill on the table without even having them, since alot of the AGL skills are defaultable. Its not even that hard for a human to twink his AGL to the max(9), netting 8 dice(which isnt, say, godly but a frigging lot for someone that doesnt have the skill), but this sort of nips that in the bud.

Limiting hits(i also like the idea of the hits over the skill level being halved, both methods seem good) also prevents the Agility-twink-take-one-in-a-crapload-of-skills method.

Making defaults harsher, again, makes skills more important.

Somewhat on the topic of trying to reign in blatant, overly twinked builds...The other 'twink' build i was never a fan of was the 'Natural Body 5 Agility 5 Reaction 4 Str 1 Samurai'. No rules can really take care of that one, but as a GM if anyone hands me that build i expect a reason why their bodies are so toned to near max potential but they are as strong as a 10 year old. (even tho the Attribute levels were lowered, I still consider 3 typical, like it describes, 2 Underdeveloped, and 1 weak. And i also know that high Body doesnt mean high Strength...but when ALL of the physical attributes are that beyond an Olympic athlete while you are still feeble i wonder.) And i want more of an explination than ''so i could wear more armor and have all of my combat skills tweaked, and besides, i can just buy his Str up for cheaper than it costs me to raise it.''

Im not against tweaking up a character to be effective, not at all...but there are certain things that go beyond the line and turn into utter twinkdom.


Wakshaani
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jan 12 2007, 11:23 AM)
... the Turk tops out at 2 hits, no matter how well he rolls ...

3! wink.gif

...

Right!

That's what I typed!

3!

Honest!

*editeditedit*

....

Ahem.

-- Wak, never could get that Holy Handgrenade of Antioch to work, either. (Five!)
TBRMInsanity
One of my favorite house rules is the point blank range rule (or GunFu Rule). If you are within melee range of an opponent you must resolve your ranged combat attack as a melee attack using your firearms skill instead of a melee skill or ranged combat. I have had this rule since SR 2 and I find it makes for more intense close range gun fights. In fact I created a martial art for SR 3 that was based around GunFu and was only usable with firearms (the martial art would be like the GunFu in Equilibrium or Ultra Violent).

Eg/
Jonny Sharpeyes is mixing it up with a phyad who has closed the distance. Jonny pulls his Ares Pred and goes for a head shot. The phyad tries to block the gun out of the way to save his hide.
Jonny roles 4 successes on his Firearms + Agility role.
The phyad roles 3 successes on his Unarmed + Reaction role.
With the damage code of 5P + 1 from the net success, Jonny does 6P damage to the phyad.
The phyad roles 4 successes on his Body + Ballistic role reduce int the damage to 2P and filling two boxes of physical damage for the phyad.
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